Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Marvin Knox]

Actually, re-read my post. I did not re-edit the post (you are quoting now) since you posted this. I said, 2 Timothy 2:19, which proceeds 2 Timothy 3:1-9. Please take note that there were no chapter breaks in the original text. It says let everyone that names the name of Christ in verse 19 (2nd chapter of 3rd Timothy). This is a believer.

In Jude 1:4 it says they crept in unawares. Jude 1:12 says, "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear:" This an allusion to the saints gathering together weekly for the Lord's supper and for fellowship. Those who crept in unawares amongst them....

I reread your post. My mistake on the reading 3:19 instead of 2:19.

It still does not give a context for the 2 Timothy 3:1-9 passage that makes them believers. You simply want them to be - so that you can teach your doctrine. You say that these people are believers without anything that shows they are.

Also note the statement that follows in chapter 3.

“But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. “ 2 Timothy 3:13

Note the word that I have highlighted for you. These are not believers. You'd probably try to say that they are.

The same is true for the Jude passage.

This is an extremely weak proof text to use against those who teach the eternal security of believers.

If this is one of your strongest you are are on very weak ground.

 

[sdowney717]

The jude passage simply says God delivers the people out of Egypt and afterwards destroys those who do not believe.
It never says the ones destroyed were believers. These unbelievers are simply coming along with the believers. This is in perfect agreement with Christ teaching the parable of the tares and the wheat. The tares (unbelievers) grow together with the wheat (believers) in the world and at the harvest each goes to the place appointed for them, unbelievers to hell with Satan, believers to heaven with Christ.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[sdowney717]

The good seed sown by Christ the Son of Man are never turning into the tare seed sown by Satan who are the sons of the wicked one.
There is no becoming one or the other, each are what they are from their beginning as seeds.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Dear Marvin:
Please read carefully Free Grace's post above. He is claiming that one can sin and still be saved.

He does not believe sin can separate him from God after becoming a believer. What concerns me is that you argue against me on the topic of holiness in regards to one's right standing with God, too. So I am leaning that you believe something similar. If I got your belief wrong, then please explain it to me so that there is no room for confusion on what you believe in regards to this matter. Thank you. And may God bless you. Sincerely, ~ Jason. ....

I don't want there to be any confusion at all between us on this matter.

I concur with the statements of FreeGrace2 all down the line.

It looks like the church might have to fight the Reformation all over again with Jason instead of the Pope as the enemy.

You'll note that the condemnation of your false gospel presented in this thread is pretty much universal.

FreeGrace2 and I have had many differences on doctrine over time - and that's an understatement.

Likewise ToBeLoved and I have our differences concerning certain doctrines. That is also an understatement.

TheBoxer and I have locked horns on a certain issue as well.

Sdowney717 and I would have issues concerning limited atonement and some other areas as well.

But concerning our opposition to your insidious heresy - "We be mates."

IMO the things which you allude to that are found in the post of FreeGrace2 are to be considered the basic milk of the Word by any evangelical worth the name.

I remember years ago reading a quote by Mother Theresa concerning why she did all of the good works that she was doing. Although not an exact quote - she said pretty much that "God has placed many good works here on the earth for us to do in order that we can earn our way to Heaven." I remember thinking at the time that, not only was that not correct Christian doctrine, it was almost the direct opposite of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I feel the same about the drivel you have been spouting.

Count me in with the basic sentiment here in this thread.

You need to start your own religion. Because your's certainly is not Christianity.

Is that clear enough?

No misunderstanding right?

 

[sdowney717]

To say that your saved then you commit a sin and you're doomed to hell, well, that is a very mechanistic Satanic type of God being taught there versus the God of family relationships where we are adopted into the beloved, made acceptable in the beloved.

It is a heresy to teach against the NEW BIRTH.
We do not get born again over and over again every time after we sin and repent.
If that was true, Christ and the apostles would have taught that.

We are born again to enter the kingdom of God. Then we are in His family, and family looks out for each other and should love each other.
He loves us first is why we love Him. And we love whoever is born of Him. There is no teaching that says we after being born of God are unborn of God. That which is born of God overcomes the world, and who is he that overcomes the world? He who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God overcomes the world because of their faith.

A believer who sins confesses their sin and it says is cleansed of all unrighteousness. That is what believers do, when they sin, they confess their sin to God and God being their Father, forgives them. That is part of the discipline God works in our life, else we are not belonging to Him. Since we do belong to Him as His purchased possession, then God engineers the situations in our life that we need to experience, He DOES NOT leave us as orphans, Christ is the good shepherd, and He does discipline the sheep. What kind of father would let the children run wild and not arrange the circumstances to bring them back to Himself? Does not the parable of the prodigal son teach us that? If God owns you, then God will not allow you to wander without Him going after you. The prodigal returns and is not lost forever to the Father. The sheep return to the Shepherd. The Shepherd goes after His lost sheep. Their is a very deep meaning to Christ coming to seek and to save that which was lost, the lost are His lost sheep that He foreknew, that he predestined to be conformed to His own self.

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I reread your post. My mistake on the reading 3:19 instead of 2:19.

It still does not give a context for the 2 Timothy 3:1-9 passage that makes them believers. You simply want them to be - so that you can teach your doctrine. You say that these people are believers without anything that showus they are.

Also note the statement that follows in chapter 3.

“But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. “ 2 Timothy 3:13

Note the word that I have highlighted for you. These are not believers. You'd probably try to say that they are.

The same is true for the Jude passage.

This is an extremely weak proof text to use against those who teach the eternal security of believers.

If this is one of your strongest you are are on very weak ground.

An imposter is someone who impersonate another. These are believers who are imposters.

But even if you do not think 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is not talking about false believers (which is ignoring of the context), you will have a much harder time ignoring 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14. For Peter clearly labels these people as false believers who cannot cease from sin.


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

I have to go away from the forum for the rest of January.

Our local church has asked it's members to forsake ("fast") something that is very important to us for the rest of the month. We want to dedicate ourselves to the Lord and separate ourselves from anything that would keep us from a heart-felt communing with Him for a period of time.

I have decided that I will curtail my participation here in this forum in an effort to join with my church in this time of dedication.

Doctrine is extremely important to me. Discussing doctrine here in the forum is very important to me.

But I have found that I incur not a little vexation in my soul because of it.

I want to draw close to the Lord in a very personal sense for this particular time.

These debates take me away from that in some ways.

I need to concentrate on whatever is pure and good in the most basic sense. I need to refrain from the things that may cause turmoil in my soul.


"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things." Philippians 4:8

I trust that the rest of you here will continue the fight against the false gospel of works that is being presented here by Jason.

Fight the good fight while I am gone.

I may return (or not) depending on how the Lord leads me.

 

[GillDouglas]

I have to go away from the forum for the rest of January.

Our local church has asked it's members to forsake ("fast") something that is very important to us for the rest of the month. We want to dedicate ourselves to the Lord and separate ourselves from anything that would keep us from a heart-felt communing with Him for a period of time.

I have decided that I will curtail my participation here in this forum in an effort to join with my church in this time of dedication.

Doctrine is extremely important to me. Discussing doctrine here in the forum is very important to me.

But I have found that I incur not a little vexation in my soul because of it.

I want to draw close to the Lord in a very personal sense for this particular time.

These debates take me away from that in some ways.

I need to concentrate on whatever is pure and good in the most basic sense. I need to refrain from the things that may cause turmoil in my soul.

"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things." Philippians 4:8

I trust that the rest of you here will continue the fight against the false gospel of works that is being presented here by Jason.

Fight the good fight while I am gone.

I may return (or not) depending on how the Lord leads me.

Brother,

Enjoy your break. I know the draw this forum has in iron sharpening iron and I also know the frustration it causes. I enjoy the fellowship we have here, and the discussions we have sorting out theological differences between fellow brothers (and sisters) in Christ. God bless, and hope to see you back in February.

 

[Marvin Knox]

An imposter is someone who impersonate another. These are believers who are imposters.

Impostors who are impersonating believers is exactly the case here.

Yours is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

Impersonation assumes the fact that the impersonator is not the same as the ones being impersonated.

"Believers" who are "impostors" concerning their being "believers" is an oxymoron of the first order.

What an absolutely ridiculous and silly statement.

But even if you do not think 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is not talking about false believers (which is ignoring of the context), you will have a much harder time ignoring 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14. For Peter clearly labels these people as false believers who cannot cease from sin. ...

"FALSE" believers is the pertinent term used here in these verses.

What part of "false" do you not understand?

Your logic is completely bankrupt.

God has obviously given you over to an inability to reason and express yourself clearly.

That's what happens when you believe and teach a lie.

See you all later (perhaps).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The jude passage simply says God delivers the people out of Egypt and afterwards destroys those who do not believe.
It never says the ones destroyed were believers. These unbelievers are simply coming along with the believers. This is in perfect agreement with Christ teaching the parable of the tares and the wheat. The tares (unbelievers) grow together with the wheat (believers) in the world and at the harvest each goes to the place appointed for them, unbelievers to hell with Satan, believers to heaven with Christ.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

First, in the book of Jude, it essentially says they snuck in among them unawares and that they feasted with them. Believers are told not to have fellowship with unbelievers. So this is clearly imposters posing as believers. This does not mean they do not believe in Christ. Some simply believe in another Christ or another gospel.

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Second, as for recognizing the wheat from the tares: Well, the point is that the wheat is useful; And the weeds are useless. This is the same line of thought when Jesus says,

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:5-6).

Fruit on the branch of a tree is useful. But if there is no fruit, that branch is useless and cast forth so as to be burned.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Impostors who are impersonating believers is exactly the case here.

Yours is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

Impersonation assumes the fact that the impersonator is not the same as the ones being impersonated.

"Believers" who are "impostors" concerning their being "believers" is an oxymoron of the first order.

Is someone who believes in another Jesus an imposter? I would say.... "yes."
On the surface they appear to believe in Jesus, but they are not a true genuine believer, though. They are a fake or an imposter.

What an absolutely ridiculous and silly statement.

Where did I ever say that these imposters or false believers were ever saved?

I didn't.

They are believing in another Jesus or another gospel.

"FALSE" believers is the pertinent term used here in these verses.

What part of "false" do you not understand?

Your logic is completely bankrupt.

God has obviously given you over to an inability to reason and express yourself clearly.

That's what happens when you believe and teach a lie.

See you all later (perhaps).

You simply misunderstand what I was trying to say. Nowhere did I ever claim that imposters or false believers are actual believers. I am stating that Peter warns us about false believers who cannot cease from sin. Also, it stands to reason that if anyone who does live unholy is condemned for living in such a way, it stands to reason that the believer cannot live that way, either.

For how does one tell the imposter from the geniune Christian?

Well, Jesus says, we shall know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit.


...

 

[nobdysfool]

An imposter is someone who impersonate another. These are believers who are imposters.

But even if you do not think 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is not talking about false believers (which is ignoring of the context), you will have a much harder time ignoring 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14. For Peter clearly labels these people as false believers who cannot cease from sin.


...

If they are "false believers", then they are not really believers at all, only pretending to be believers.

Therefore, they are not believers, and what is said of them does not pertain to believers.

You do understand the difference between true and false believers, don't you?

The same applies to imposters. imposters are not true believers, they are false believers, and it is they who will suffer the wrath and hellfire.

True believers have nothing to fear, for they are kept by God.

Stop trying to apply what is in store for false believers, imposters, to true believers. They don't change back and forth. It is major error to say that they do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If they are "false believers", then they are not really believers at all, only pretending to be believers.

Therefore, they are not believers, and what is said of them does not pertain to believers.

You do understand the difference between true and false believers, don't you?

The same applies to imposters. imposters are not true believers, they are false believers, and it is they who will suffer the wrath and hellfire.

True believers have nothing to fear, for they are kept by God.

Stop trying to apply what is in store for false believers, imposters, to true believers. They don't change back and forth. It is major error to say that they do.

A false believer is someone who believes in another Jesus or another gospel. You can call them a believer because they do in fact believe in Jesus; But they believe in a way that is false. Hence, the words "false believer."

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Revelation 2:2).


....

 

[Marvin Knox]

I just couldn't resist one last check in here before I turned in for the night.

Watching this guy do the old crawfish shuffle would be almost funny if it weren't so dog-gone serious.

 

[FreeGrace2]

An imposter is someone who impersonate another. These are believers who are imposters.

So, who are these believers impersonating? It seems you don't really understand just how silly your statement is.

But even if you do not think 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is not talking about false believers (which is ignoring of the context), you will have a much harder time ignoring 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14. For Peter clearly labels these people as false believers who cannot cease from sin.
...

I doubt you're aware of this, but the Bible never describes "false believers". The Bible does describe false brethren, who have come into churches to spy out the believers' freedom in Christ.

But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. Gal 2:4

I would like some clarification of your theology of sinless perfection.

When does one achieve it? When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?

Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?

If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?

If so, what must they do for that to occur?

Please answer each of these questions, for your theology just begs these questions.

Thanks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just couldn't resist one last check in here before I turned in for the night.

Watching this guy do the old crawfish shuffle would be almost funny if it weren't so dog-gone serious.

You can mock all you like, what I said was not a mistake and it still stands. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is talking about believers. But the difference is in knowing what type of believer I was talking about. Was I talking about true believers or false believers? While 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is specifically talking about the false believer (who names the name of Christ), you have to realize that 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is a warning to both true believers and false believers. It is a warning for true believers not to be deceived into a wrong doctrine of thinking they can sin and still be saved (and become like these false believers); And it is a warning against these false believers to repent of their sinful ways and beliefs. For 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is in context to anyone who names the name of Christ (See 2 Timothy 2:19 again). This would include ANYONE who names the name of Christ. All believers who name the name of Christ are to depart from evil or sin. It is what verse 19 says. But God knows there are some who name the name of Christ who will not depart from evil. That is where 2 Timothy 3:1-9 comes in. It is a warning. It is also a big neon sign that exposes these imposters or false believers. For imposters can include people who believe in another Jesus or another gospel. That is why in the book of Jude essentially says they are able to sneak in unawares amongst the real believers in Jesus Christ.

Even Peter identifies these false prophets (false believers) as ones who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So, who are these believers impersonating? It seems you don't really understand just how silly your statement is.


I doubt you're aware of this, but the Bible never describes "false believers". The Bible does describe false brethren, who have come into churches to spy out the believers' freedom in Christ.

But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. Gal 2:4

I would like some clarification of your theology of sinless perfection.

When does one achieve it? When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?

Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?

If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?

If so, what must they do for that to occur?

Please answer each of these questions, for your theology just begs these questions.

Thanks.

I am actually trying to wrap my head around why you find this so difficult to understand.

False propehts, false brethren, ARE false believers.

Concerning true believers, in the body of Christ there are apostles, prophets, and teachers. True brethren or brothers in the body of Christ are all believers.

Again, the Bible says there are those who preach in another Jesus or another gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4). They believe in Jesus, and preach another Jesus, but they do so in error.

True believers who at one time had believed in another Jesus (i.e. in Biblical cults) did not think they were false (While they were in error). However, when they opened themselves to God's Word and were convicted in their heart of the man made religion they were in, they then repented of their false beliefs and had come to the Lord Jesus Christ for real. They will tell you that at one time, they were a "false believer" in Jesus or that they believed in another Jesus.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't want there to be any confusion at all between us on this matter.

I concur with the statements of FreeGrace2 all down the line.

It looks like the church might have to fight the Reformation all over again with Jason instead of the Pope as the enemy.

You'll note that the condemnation of your false gospel presented in this thread is pretty much universal.

FreeGrace2 and I have had many differences on doctrine over time - and that's an understatement.

Likewise ToBeLoved and I have our differences concerning certain doctrines. That is also an understatement.

TheBoxer and I have locked horns on a certain issue as well.

Sdowney717 and I would have issues concerning limited atonement and some other areas as well.

But concerning our opposition to your insidious heresy - "We be mates."

IMO the things which you allude to that are found in the post of FreeGrace2 are to be considered the basic milk of the Word by any evangelical worth the name.

I remember years ago reading a quote by Mother Theresa concerning why she did all of the good works that she was doing. Although not an exact quote - she said pretty much that "God has placed many good works here on the earth for us to do in order that we can earn our way to Heaven." I remember thinking at the time that, not only was that not correct Christian doctrine, it was almost the direct opposite of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I feel the same about the drivel you have been spouting.

Count me in with the basic sentiment here in this thread.

You need to start your own religion. Because your's certainly is not Christianity.

Is that clear enough?

No misunderstanding right?

I cannot respond openly to such a post without being banned. But if you agree with Free Grace's posts on Soteriology, then you believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For that is what he believes. He does not believe unrepentant sin can separate him from God. This means that a believer can commit serious sins (Like hate, theft, adultery, etc.) and not confess and forsake such sins and still enter into God's Kingdom. Folks who believe this way can play church and also live their sinful life that they enjoy. But it doesn't work like that. God wants us to be pure of heart and to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. If one is living in sin, they cannot also be living a holy life. It's either one or the other.

If either you or Free Grace believe I am mistaken in my above statements here, I would be more than happy to talk it over and have you two convince me otherwise. But from what I have gathered in what he has said so far, I believe he thinks that no sin can separate Him from Christ.

Furthermore, you yourself were even unsure of the fate of a person who commits suicide (Which leads me to believe that you think that a believer can potentially commit serious sins without repentance and still be saved). But we know clearly from Scripture that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Suicide is self murder. For God will destroy that person who defiles the Temple (1 Corinthians 3:17). There is no worse way to defile one's temple by destroy it yourself. For we are not our own, we are bought and paid for with a price.


....

 

[nobdysfool]

A false believer is someone who believes in another Jesus or another gospel. You can call them a believer because they do in fact believe in Jesus; But they believe in a way that is false. Hence, the words "false believer."

Or, they could just be falsely claiming to believe, and not believe at all. A FAKE believer. One who isn't really a believer at all, only pretending to be one, for some other reason.
by trying to lump them in with true believers when it suits you, you are corrupting and confusing things. You are dealing with false weights and measures, so to speak.

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Revelation 2:2).
....

And then you jump to a non-sequitor as proof. We are not talking about those who just have a difference of opinion about a theological point or two, although that seems to be what you want to make this about. A false believer is not a believer at all, they are falsely claiming to believe, not just believing in a wrong way or in a corrupted gospel.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where did I ever say that these imposters or false believers were ever saved?

I didn't.

They are believing in another Jesus or another gospel.

...

But there isn't another Jesus AND there isn't another gospel.

So, they are unbelievers.