Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems to me that you deny the power of God in the new birth that transforms us into a new creation IN Christ Jesus, that now has our fruit set to holiness and not corruption and sin.
You're still pumping up the old man, the old covenant, the law. You are an old covenant Christian which is a corrupt impossibility.
In the NC we are justified by faith and by His blood, and if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus Christ.
You do not get kicked out from the NC like you would in the OC due to your sins. Both covenants, sins were atoned for, the NC sins are atoned for permanently for believers.

Romans 8:34
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Believers are kept by the power of God through faith.
1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

But you claim a single sin destroys faith and so therefore a saved person becomes instantly unsaved.
Faith is a gift of God. And gifts of God can not be revoked. In other words, eternal life is for those who believe.
People believe by grace alone and not by doing works, something your words deny.


Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

Well, I do not believe in following any of the Commands in the Old Covenant as a whole. For even the moral law in the Old Testament was attached with death penalties. I believe Christ fulfilled that Law. But that does not mean there is no Law of any kind today. There are 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament that are still in effect for the beleiver today. Breaking certain of these commands are attached with serious dire consequences to one's soul in the after-life, if one does not confess and forsake their sin in breaking such commands.

We do not get a free pass to live as we please. Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul also says, if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


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[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Jason,

Instead of responding to your lat 3 posts, which is just a re-hash of what has already been posted, let's consider one last passage.

1 Thess 5:4-11

4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

OK, v.4-7 provide a contrast between lifestyles of believers with unbelievers: light and darkness, awake/sober and sleep/drunk.

v.8 because we are believers, we are to be sober and awake, not drunk or sleeping, as unbelievers do.
v.9 states that believers are not destined for wrath but obtaining salvation through Christ.
v.10 nails eternal security: regardless of our lifestyle (that being awake or asleep, or sober or drunk), we might live with Him.
v.11 tells us to encourage other believers and build them up in this principle.

To tell another believer that they may end up in hell because of lifestyle clearly indicates that Christ's death on the cross for them wasn't enough.

Such a view is blasphemy. We are saved by grace through faith. Not works. Not lifestyle.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, please address each verse, as I've done, with an explanation of what it means and the meaning of the text.

Paul is talking about faithful believers in this passage. How so? Just keep reading on into 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7.

First, you ask about "in this passage", which is 1 Thess 5. Then you quote from 2 Thess 3. A different letter to the same group. Again, you're confused.

We KNOW Paul was comparing believers to unbeliever and lifestyles in the passage I quoted. I even explained EACH VERSE.

So if you disagree with anything I posted, please address each point that you disagree with and explain WHY my explanation is wrong. That's how debate works.

"6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;"

Paul refutes your ideas here as well. He notes there are believers who live disorderly.

In fact, this supports my explanation of 1 Thess 5:4-11. Believers who live disorderly (drunk, sleep) will still be "with Him".

I mean, stop and think. The unprofitable servant is going to be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). This does not sound like they are going to be saved or anything.

First, look at context. Second, look at how 'outer darkness' is used in the other passages.

Also, Jesus used real world examples (parables) to illustrate spiritual truth. So if you believe God teaches that a saint can sin and still be saved, then surely this truth can be illustrated by way of a real world example. ...

And I actually did that already, but you rejected it without reason. King Saul. I showed the verse that indicated that he was saved, and the verse that showed where he went after physical death.

Your rejection of these verses has NO EFFECT on the truth of these verses. You are free to reject anything you want to, in order to preserve your own theology, but that changes NOTHING.

 

[FreeGrace2]

GillDouglas said: ↑
Your idea of Salvation is utterly and totally screwed up.

Your kidding, right?

No, he is quite serious and I fully concur with his assessment.

My belief that God is good and He wants His people to be good is messed up? Right.

This isn't even close to the debate. You've claimed that being good is what saves one. That is totally messed up. Paul proved from Rom 3 and 4 that no one is good enough to earn or receive eternal life. That is WHY Jesus died for our sins.

Moreover, Jesus Himself told the rich man that "no one is good, except God". Therefore, NO HUMAN is good, and certainly not good enough to receive eternal life based on their lifestyle. Period. Mark 10:18

Well, I am not the one who is promoting that a believer can do horrible acts of evil with no remorse and or with no repentance and still be saved.

Guess what!! You've completely missed the whole point. Please pay better attention when others post. The Bible is full of warning of just how much such a believer will suffer for doing that. No one gets away with anything. And guess what: you're not the judge of whether one is getting away. Remember that God is patient with everyone. He wants all to come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

For God to allow such a thing would mean that the Lord condones evil and that is not possible. God is good. He is not evil.

See my comments above. Again, no one get away with anything. God is just.

Paul wrote this: 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This isn't about keeping or losing salvation, but whether or not the believer will receive eternal rewards.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Breaking certain of these commands are attached with serious dire consequences to one's soul in the after-life, if one does not confess and forsake their sin in breaking such commands.

Please quote ANY verse that supports your claim here. There are NONE.

We do not get a free pass to live as we please.

No one here has EVER said that. And I just quoted 2 Cor 5:10 to prove that no one gets away with anything.

You're just arguing a straw man.

Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 says we will not receive inheritance IN the kingdom. That's where the inheritance IS.

Paul also says, if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4)....

You've demonstrated that pretty well. Sadly.

 

[sdowney717]

Well, I do not believe in following any of the Commands in the Old Covenant as a whole. For even the moral law in the Old Testament was attached with death penalties. I believe Christ fulfilled that Law. But that does not mean there is no Law of any kind today. There are 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament that are still in effect for the beleiver today. Breaking certain of these commands are attached with serious dire consequences to one's soul in the after-life, if one does not confess and forsake their sin in breaking such commands.

We do not get a free pass to live as we please. Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul also says, if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


...

You own words judge you then.
Since Christ says in John 10 and more places about eternal life for believers this,

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[EmSw]

You do know, don't you, that Jesus said these things under the old covenant before He laid down His life for us - before we were crucified with Him?

Wow Marvin, surely you realize you refer quite often to the words of Jesus for your doctrines. It doesn't seem to matter they were under the old covenant; maybe one picks and chooses which words of Jesus they want to believe.

How many times have you gone to the old covenant and pulled out passages for your doctrines?

Was the law, under the old covenant abolished with Jesus, or, was it written upon our hearts?

Actually He has shown you the way to inherit eternal life.

He has shown you through the words of the Holy Spirit of Christ Who was given to us after He paid the price for our sins. If only you would acknowledge the way that He has shown us.

Do you not believe we inherit eternal life the way Jesus says? I do!

The returning again to the old covenant after He installed the new covenant through the breaking of His body and the shedding of His blood - is denying the Lord who bought you as I read it.

My not being a Calvinist - you would probably be better served to ask a Calvinist about this. However, I am fairly well versed in what Calvinists teach.

As I mentioned above, you most definitely go back to the old covenant for your doctrines, including the words of Jesus. Does this mean you have denied the Lord?

I have never met, heard, or read a Calvinist who did not tech that a man should love God with all his heart. Have you?

A man (including a born again Calvinist) would pursue love because of the Holy Spirit within him who leads Him into truth.

If you have been taught that a man should love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, what keeps you from doing it?

I reckon that most of us have read these passages many times. The difference is that some of us have read them after resting in the finished work of Christ as our only hope of salvation.

Because some of us have so rested (as opposed to you evidently) - we see the quotes you mention from Jesus in a different light than does someone who remains under the law as his only hope of salvation.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you see 'in a different' light. The word of God is THE Light, which is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our paths. The word of God includes any, and all words which proceeded from Jesus, Who is the Light Itself.

So, I ask, with what different light do see things?

The implications for my life in obeying Jesus are seen in a completely different light than the way you see them - being under law as you are.

But you admitted in an earlier post, that you didn't obey Jesus' words, for example, you have never loved God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and you have never loved your neighbor as yourself. What are the implications for that? By the way, these truthful words of Jesus were under the old covenant.

You've just continued to assign me a place with the full blown Calvinists. You have done so no matter how many times you have been corrected about that.

That's one of the reasons we have so much trouble.

Hey, if it looks like a Calvinist, sounds like a Calvinists, and believes like a Calvinist, then...

You may be a reformed Calvinist, but a Calvinist nonetheless.

Besides, I have yet to see any Calvinist on this forum who disagrees with you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I said this:
Jason,

Instead of responding to your lat 3 posts, which is just a re-hash of what has already been posted, let's consider one last passage.

1 Thess 5:4-11

4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

OK, v.4-7 provide a contrast between lifestyles of believers with unbelievers: light and darkness, awake/sober and sleep/drunk.

v.8 because we are believers, we are to be sober and awake, not drunk or sleeping, as unbelievers do.
v.9 states that believers are not destined for wrath but obtaining salvation through Christ.
v.10 nails eternal security: regardless of our lifestyle (that being awake or asleep, or sober or drunk), we might live with Him.
v.11 tells us to encourage other believers and build them up in this principle.

To tell another believer that they may end up in hell because of lifestyle clearly indicates that Christ's death on the cross for them wasn't enough.

Such a view is blasphemy. We are saved by grace through faith. Not works. Not lifestyle.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, please address each verse, as I've done, with an explanation of what it means and the meaning of the text.

First, you ask about "in this passage", which is 1 Thess 5. Then you quote from 2 Thess 3. A different letter to the same group. Again, you're confused.

We KNOW Paul was comparing believers to unbeliever and lifestyles in the passage I quoted. I even explained EACH VERSE.

So if you disagree with anything I posted, please address each point that you disagree with and explain WHY my explanation is wrong. That's how debate works.


Paul refutes your ideas here as well. He notes there are believers who live disorderly.

In fact, this supports my explanation of 1 Thess 5:4-11. Believers who live disorderly (drunk, sleep) will still be "with Him".


First, look at context. Second, look at how 'outer darkness' is used in the other passages.


And I actually did that already, but you rejected it without reason. King Saul. I showed the verse that indicated that he was saved, and the verse that showed where he went after physical death.

Your rejection of these verses has NO EFFECT on the truth of these verses. You are free to reject anything you want to, in order to preserve your own theology, but that changes NOTHING.

At it's core, what is blasphemy based upon? Well, blasphemy is based on a moral code. But in your world view: Morality does not exist while under grace. So techincally, there is no such thing as blasphemy if you do not hold to a moral code. The benefits of Morality does not favor the one who breaks Morality. To suggest so otherwise, would not make any sense.

As for 1 Thessalonians 5: Well, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 should leave you in silence. It says test or prove all things and hold onto that which is good. Hold....to....that....which....is....good. Does not sound like we have a license to sin to me. But you are saying that doing evil in God's name does not effect your good standing with Him. But such talk is absolute rubbish and you know it deep down. A know a bad guy is bad by the fact of what he does. Satanists are bad because they do Satanic and evil things. God's people are good because they naturally do good things. But to say so otherwise and believe that Christians can sin and still be under God's grace is just wrong on so many levels. You do not need a Bible to even tell you that such a thing is wrong. You know it is wrong. In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


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[sdowney717]

At it's core, what is blasphemy based upon? Well, blasphemy is based on a moral code. But in your world view: Morality does not exist while under grace. So techincally, there is no such thing as blasphemy if you do not hold to a moral code. The benefits of Morality does not favor the one who breaks Morality. To suggest so otherwise, would not make any sense.

As for 1 Thessalonians 5: Well, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 should leave you in silence. It says test or prove all things and hold onto that which is good. Hold....to....that....which....is....good. Does not sound like we have a license to sin to me. But you are saying that doing evil in God's name does not effect your good standing with Him. But such talk is absolute rubbish and you know it deep down. A know a bad guy is bad by the fact of what he does. Satanists are bad because they do Satanic and evil things. God's people are good because they naturally do good things. But to say so otherwise and believe that Christians can sin and still be under God's grace is just wrong on so many levels. You do not need a Bible to even tell you that such a thing is wrong. You know it is wrong. In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


...

Jason, your sin is you do not discern the body of Christ.
Truth is you attack the body of Christ, you are an adversary taking the side of Satan the acuser of the brethren.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You own words judge you then.
Since Christ says in John 10 and more places about eternal life for believers this,

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Well, this passage does not support Calvinism. If you were to skip down and read, Jesus tells them to who do not believe.... to then believe Him because of the works that He does (See verse 38 - John 10:38). In Matthew 11:28, Jesus says come unto me all who are weary. In John 7:37, Jesus says, if any man thirst, let him come and drink. This does not sound like forced regeneration or salvation to me. God is offering a choice. Just as He had done with the Israelites in Deuteronomy 30:19. For God's Word says I set before you life and death, and He desires them to CHOOSE life.

Also, this passage in John 10 does not support Antinomianism, Hyper Grace, or Easy Believism, either. Why? Because the context of those sheep who cannot be snatched out of His hand are those sheep that FOLLOW Him. Following Jesus implies that they are DOING what Jesus is commanding them to do. For Jesus Himself said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, your sin is you do not discern the body of Christ.
Truth is you attack the body of Christ, you are an adversary taking the side of Satan the acuser of the brethren.

If a believer thinks they can sin and still be saved, then they are not on the side of God because they are promoting evil while under God's grace. For you cannot adhere to the benefits of morality, if you do not hold to morality. One has to uphold morality first before calling out any injustice.


....

 

[nobdysfool]

No. Truth is not in the Old Testament. It is in the New Testament. ...

Oh really? Please tell us how you came to that particular understanding, since it is the OT that testifies of Christ, who is the very embodiment of the Truth.

Was Paul wrong when he said,
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2Ti 3:15-17) ?

You have seriously betrayed your lack of correct knowledge right here. Which Scriptures, which Paul called Holy Scriptures, was Timothy brought up believing?

Hint: it wasn't the NT, because it had not yet been codified, or even finished.

It was the OT, which you say does not contain Truth. So Timothy was not saved, according to your reasoning.

Jason, one of the first rules of discussion and debate is, when you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!

You are in a very deep hole, of your own making.

.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh really? Please tell us how you came to that particular understanding, since it is the OT that testifies of Christ, who is the very embodiment of the Truth.

Was Paul wrong when he said,
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2Ti 3:15-17) ?

You have seriously betrayed your lack of correct knowledge right here. Which Scriptures, which Paul called Holy Scriptures, was Timothy brought up believing?

Hint: it wasn't the NT, because it had not yet been codified, or even finished.

It was the OT, which you say does not contain Truth. So Timothy was not saved, according to your reasoning.

Jason, one of the first rules of discussion and debate is, when you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!

You are in a very deep hole, of your own making.

.

While the OT Scriptures did testify of Christ, they did not know who Christ was and they did not know the exact details of His plan of salvation for mankind.

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14).

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

In other words, when the New Testament talks about the Truth, it is not talking about gong backwards towards the Old Testament. Truth (as mentioned in the New) is accepted by those under the New Covenant. To suggest otherwise is merely a gross perversion of the text.


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[GillDouglas]

If a believer thinks they can sin and still be saved, then they are not on the side of God because they are promoting evil while under God's grace. For you cannot adhere to the benefits of morality, if you do not hold to morality. One has to uphold morality first before calling out any injustice.

....

If a man believes that he can bring himself to God and save himself, he is not on the side of God but of men and 'good' works. If a man claims that he is saved and has become as holy as the Savior Himself, completely without and incapable of sin, they are not on the side of God, but of self righteousness. You sir are not one of us, you are an impostor. You claim to know God and know His Word, yet you preach the holiness and righteousness of man. Your religion is no different that any other world religion, do 'x' and 'y' and you will be saved! Do this and God will save you, good luck! That is NOT Christianity, for our religion is not about what we do but what has been done for us. Our hope is in Christ, not in man. God Himself has given us the way to spend eternity with Him and I choose that path. I do not choose the path of a self righteous Pharisaical self proclaimed Holy man, but that of an imperfect depraved human being in desperate need of the daily work of the Holy Spirit. You sir are a false teacher, and a danger to any fledgling Christian.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If a man believes that he can bring himself to God and save himself, he is not on the side of God but of men and 'good' works. If a man claims that he is saved and has become as holy as the Savior Himself, completely without and incapable of sin, they are not on the side of God, but of self righteousness. You sir are not one of us, you are an impostor. You claim to know God and know His Word, yet you preach the holiness and righteousness of man. Your religion is no different that any other world religion, do 'x' and 'y' and you will be saved! Do this and God will save you, good luck! That is NOT Christianity, for our religion is not about what we do but what has been done for us. Our hope is in Christ, not in man. God Himself has given us the way to spend eternity with Him and I choose that path. I do not choose the path of a self righteous Pharisaical self proclaimed Holy man, but that of an imperfect depraved human being in desperate need of the daily work of the Holy Spirit. You sir are a false teacher, and a danger to any fledgling Christian.

No, dear sir. The Scriptures are clear that those who think they can sin and still be saved or be unfruitful for God are the real imposters.

"They profess to know God, but in their works they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and unfit for any good work" (Titus 1:16).​

1 "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord" (Jude 1:4) (New International Version).​

21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" (Matthew 7:21-24).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).​

15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:15-20).

1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1)​

14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness" (2 Peter 2:14-15).

They deny the Lord in works and turn the grace of our God into a license of immorality; And they cannot cease from sin. These are the false prophets or believers. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.


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[sdowney717]

Well, this passage does not support Calvinism. If you were to skip down and read, Jesus tells them to who do not believe.... to then believe Him because of the works that He does (See verse 38 - John 10:38). In Matthew 11:28, Jesus says come unto me all who are weary. In John 7:37, Jesus says, if any man thirst, let him come and drink. This does not sound like forced regeneration or salvation to me. God is offering a choice. Just as He had done with the Israelites in Deuteronomy 30:19. For God's Word says I set before you life and death, and He desires them to CHOOSE life.

Also, this passage in John 10 does not support Antinomianism, Hyper Grace, or Easy Believism, either. Why? Because the context of those sheep who cannot be snatched out of His hand are those sheep that FOLLOW Him. Following Jesus implies that they are DOING what Jesus is commanding them to do. For Jesus Himself said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say?


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Truth Jason is they do not respond to Christ as natural minded men, even though God and Christ give them the opportunity by seeing the miraculous works of God. Simply this proves natural men refuse repentance and will not believe in Christ.
Unless God changes a person, they will not believe. You teach a pelagian heresy apart from grace. People believe in Christ entirely by God's grace and mercy. Evidence is in that passage and elsewhere, miracles do not convince people to believe. The miracles Christ did, these unbelieving Jews attribute to the power of Satan not God and regarding His words, they say He is insane or demon possesed.

 

[nobdysfool]

While the OT Scriptures did testify of Christ, they did not know who Christ was and they did not know the exact details of His plan of salvation for mankind.

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14).

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

In other words, when the New Testament talks about the Truth, it is not talking about gong backwards towards the Old Testament. Truth (as mentioned in the New) is accepted by those under the New Covenant. To suggest otherwise is merely a gross perversion of the text.


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Trying to spin this does not negate your clear statement, and I showed exactly why with the example of Timothy. The OT scriptures were enough to lead Timothy to salvation in Christ,. as well as many others.

No one here is perverting the texts except you. No one here is pitting the OT against the NT except you. Claiming that the OT is not Truth is an strong indictment of your false and twisted interpretation of Scripture. Claiming that Believers could wind up in Hell is a gross perversion of Scripture. The longer we withstand you on your false doctrine, the more reason you give for why we should. This is just another one of those reasons.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Trying to spin this does not negate your clear statement, and I showed exactly why with the example of Timothy. The OT scriptures were enough to lead Timothy to salvation in Christ,. as well as many others.

No one here is perverting the texts except you. No one here is pitting the OT against the NT except you. Claiming that the OT is not Truth is an strong indictment of your false and twisted interpretation of Scripture. Claiming that Believers could wind up in Hell is a gross perversion of Scripture. The longer we withstand you on your false doctrine, the more reason you give for why we should. This is just another one of those reasons.

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I am not saying that the OT Scriptures did not provide truth for it's time or that they cannot be used to illuminate the truth of those Scriptures in the New Testament. However, the Old Testament did not remain after Jesus died upon the cross, though. God's entire plan of salvation was not revealed in the Old but it was revealed by the New. The Temple veil has been torn and we are now under a New Covenant. Ultimate Truth came by Jesus Christ.


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[sdowney717]

Ephesians 4 teaches us about the body of Christ.

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Those who teach the body of Christ disintegrates, as in saved parts of the body of Christ losing salvation are deceived. Scripture says the body continues to grow larger with every part doing its share, and ALL parts are coordinated by the Head which is Christ.

 

[nobdysfool]

No, dear sir. The Scriptures are clear that those who think they can sin and still be saved or be unfruitful for God are the real imposters.

"They profess to know God, but in their works they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and unfit for any good work" (Titus 1:16).​

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Did it ever occur to you that someone claiming to know God doesn't mean they DO know Him? And that such are not truly saved? If they aren't truly saved, they cannot lose something they never had, and trying to lump them in with true believers is perversion of the text, and drawing a false conclusion. You claim to be preaching the Good news, but under the surface, you secretly believe that most people are liars, and not truly saved (except for you, of course). When you attempt to explain yourself, that Good news becomes worthless, because in your mind, most people aren't saved unless they meet your definition, and do the actions you deem necessary to become and remain saved.

How many times have you hinted that me, or Marvin, or FG2, or Gill, or any one of a a number of us posting here, are not truly saved, because we don't agree with you?

You continually refer to people who believe they can sin and get away with it. Praytell, who are these people, because it certainly isn't anyone I see posting here. You insult us with your straw man, and keep trying to set it on fire, but you can't, because it is a straw man, and not reality. You're trying to justify your false doctrines with a false picture of those who disagree with your faulty interpretation of scripture, and then resist any attempt to by others point out the inconsistencies, and the outright false interpretations.

Given your poor handling of the scriptures, and their meaning, you have no place trying to teach anyone anything.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Truth Jason is they do not respond to Christ as natural minded men, even though God and Christ give them the opportunity by seeing the miraculous works of God. Simply this proves natural men refuse repentance and will not believe in Christ.
Unless God changes a person, they will not believe. You teach a pelagian heresy apart from grace. People believe in Christ entirely by God's grace and mercy. Evidence is in that passage and elsewhere, miracles do not convince people to believe. The miracles Christ did, these unbelieving Jews attribute to the power of Satan not God and regarding His words, they say He is insane or demon possesed.

Not true. God told Cain that he had the capacity to do either good or evil. God told the Israelites that He set before them life and death and He desired for them to choose life. Jesus says, "Come to me." The Bride and the Spirit in Revelation tell us to, "Come drink of the water of life freely." This does not sound like the words of a God who places people into some kind of forced regeneration so as to believe.


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