Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

You are making large assumptions with the text. I showed you the verses that says man can hear, see, and understand with his heart whereby it would lead him to be converted. However, It is up to you if you want to believe what it says, though.

Anyways, I will refrain currently in explaining the other verses unless of course you really want an explanation.

In the mean time, may the Lord's love shine upon you.

....

How is that I had heard and read the Bible as a young adult, and it meant nothing to me? It DID nothing for me. I had even gone to church, spent time with Christians regularly, and yet I didn't seek Him. Why? Because I was not meant to understand it, I was not spiritually capable of communion with God. I was not meant to be His at that particular time in my life.

The appointed time that God had ordained my eyes would be opened to the truth about my sin, and the truth about Him was not until I was 30 years old. There was nothing that I had done that brought this on, nothing. I wasn't reading the Bible. I wasn't going to church. I wasn't around Christians, regularly. I did no good deed, in fact I was living in terrible sin during that time in my life. He softened my heart. He showed me my sin. He taught me about my redeemer. He chose me! Having seen my sin and its reward I gladly accept His free gift.

I was lost, but now I'm found. It wasn't me that went searching, but He, who loved me first, sought me out. Now I love Him, and desire to known Him and make Him known. Without Him, I am nothing. Through the Holy Spirit I grow more like Christ, I'll never be like Him until I return to the Father. Though I don't understand why He would choose a wretch like me, I thank Him everyday.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is not their choice, it is God's choice to hide or reveal truth.
See you have misunderstood what Christ says here.
Read again what Christ says.

11 He answered and said to them,
“Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. (to know)

Matthew 13:15,

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest [i.e. unless] at any time they should [and not God should make them so as to:] see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."


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[Bible Highlighter]

How is that I had heard and read the Bible as a young adult, and it meant nothing to me? It DID nothing for me. I had even gone to church, spent time with Christians regularly, and yet I didn't seek Him. Why? Because I was not meant to understand it, I was not spiritually capable of communion with God. I was not meant to be His at that particular time in my life.

The appointed time that God had ordained my eyes would be opened to the truth about my sin, and the truth about Him was not until I was 30 years old. There was nothing that I had done that brought this on, nothing. I wasn't reading the Bible. I wasn't going to church. I wasn't around Christians, regularly. I did no good deed, in fact I was living in terrible sin during that time in my life. He softened my heart. He showed me my sin. He taught me about my redeemer. He chose me! Having seen my sin and its reward I gladly accept His free gift.

I was lost, but now I'm found. It wasn't me that went searching, but He, who loved me first, sought me out. Now I love Him, and desire to known Him and make Him known. Without Him, I am nothing. Through the Holy Spirit I grow more like Christ, I'll never be like Him until I return to the Father. Though I don't understand why He would choose a wretch like me, I thank Him everyday.

Yes, God can draw us when He desires to do so and call us in His divine timing for us to see the truth. But you had to make a decision in accepting Christ (When it was presented to you). For you were not forced against your will to acccept such a truth. Even now, you still have to excercise faith so as to believe God's Word. it is not an automatic thing. For have you ever had any doubt in your life? If so, then that is proof that God did not automatically zap you into being His mindless puppet so as to do His will. For is your walk with God like that of Paul or the other apostles? If not, then has God failed?

Yes, I believe God teaches me by His Spirit, too. However, we both cannot be right, though. So the real test is to see if your belief lines up with the rest of Scripture and if it can be made into a real world example.


...

 

[sdowney717]

Matthew 13:15,

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest [i.e. unless] at any time they should [and not God should make them so as to:] see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."


....

You're still not believing what Christ said.
Hardened hearts, blind eyes, ears that don't hear, will stay that way unless God and Christ choose for such folk to know the truth.
If God chooses for them not to know then they will never know.
If God chooses for them to know, then they will know.
This is not about them figuring things out on their own which is Pelagianism, a heresy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is not their choice, it is God's choice to hide or reveal truth.
See you have misunderstood what Christ says here.
Read again what Christ says.

11 He answered and said to them,
“Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. (to know)

Again, you are focusing on the wrong part of the chapter and making large leaps of assumptions that goes against what verse 15 says. Verse 15 says.... UNLESS at any time THEY SHOULD SEE. Verse 15 does NOT say... UNLESS at any time I THE LORD GOD SHOULD MAKE THEM SEE. Read it for yourself again.

So the context of verse 11 is verse 15. You cannot ignore the one verse in favor of the other. It doesn't work like that. God has not given them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom. WHY? Because their ears are dull, etc. BUT.... BUT.... Jesus says there is a way to change that. UNLESS. UNLESS...... THEY..... THEY.... THEY.... THEY.... SHOULD SEE.


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[sdowney717]

Again, you are focusing on the wrong part of the chapter and making large leaps of assumptions that goes against what verse 15 says. Verse 15 says.... UNLESS at any time THEY SHOULD SEE. Verse 15 does NOT say... UNLESS at any time I THE LORD GOD SHOULD MAKE THEM SEE. Read it for yourself again.

A very similar wording is in John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

So therefore God has also blinded those in Matthew 13 when it says they have closed their eyes.
Why did they close their eyes? Because God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're still not believing what Christ said.
Hardened hearts, blind eyes, ears that don't hear, will stay that way unless God and Christ choose for such folk to know the truth.
If God chooses for them not to know then they will never know.
If God chooses for them to know, then they will know.
This is not about them figuring things out on their own which is Pelagianism, a heresy.

Actually, it is unbiblical to teach that one is regenerated before believing in the gospel. For it is a denial that one is ultimately saved by the power of the preaching of the cross and or in how it's light shines upon us.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Yet, in your belief, you are giving me the impression that the power of God is in Election or in the Lord choosing people to be regenerated first. But that is not what the Scriptures say, though.


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[sdowney717]

Lest any one think God does not blind eyes regarding believing in the gospel of Christ, here is more confirmation.
Romans 11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, God can draw us when He desires to do so and call us in His divine timing for us to see the truth. But you had to make a decision in accepting Christ (When it was presented to you). For you were not forced against your will to acccept such a truth. Even now, you still have to excercise faith so as to believe God's Word. it is not an automatic thing. For have you ever had any doubt in your life? If so, then that is proof that God did not automatically zap you into being His mindless puppet so as to do His will. For is your walk with God like that of Paul or the other apostles? If not, then has God failed?

Yes, I believe God teaches me by His Spirit, too. However, we both cannot be right, though. So the real test is to see if your belief lines up with the rest of Scripture and if it can be made into a real world example.

...

And you would believe that, after knowing the truth about my sin and where it leads, that I would turn down the free gift of Salvation made possible by the blood of Christ? If there was a choice here, it was, without question, the easiest YES. I would have never seen my sin, or understood the gift if He had not changed my way of thinking, so to speak. I had been blind, unable to understand, because I was not spiritually capable of doing so. I give God all the credit for my inheritance, as it is plainly written in the Scriptures. I deserve nothing, and yet He decided differently. I do no good, but He sees me differently. God not only created me, but He also made me new and for that I am doubly grateful.

You're bold to claim that any man has all knowledge of God; that their theology, and only theirs is right, and others are wrong. There are many more here that do not agree with your line of thinking than those that agree with you. That has to mean something.

 

[sdowney717]

Actually, it is unbiblical to teach that one is regenerated before believing in the gospel. For it is a denial that one is ultimately saved by the power of the preaching of the cross and or in how it's light shines upon us.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Yet, in your belief, you are giving me the impression that the power of God is in Election or in the Lord choosing people to be regenerated first. But that is not what the Scriptures say, though.


..

Well do not stop at verse 4, keep on going !
Jason you grab verses and teach them out of their context.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Verse 6 makes it clear that God has shone the light in some people's hearts while leaving others to remain blinded by Satan. The facts are spiritual truth is hidden by God, Christ and absolutely Satan as well. Not only does God blind eyes and minds, Satan does also.
The only people who ever get to known and believe the truth are those whom God has foreknown who are predestined , and that is according to His will.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A very similar wording is in John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

So therefore God has also blinded those in Matthew 13 when it says they have closed their eyes.
Why did they close their eyes? Because God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts.

No. The text does not say they have closed their eyes because it was God causing them to be closed from the very beginning. God is not unrighteous. Yes, God can cause people not to see, but this is because people initially harden their own hearts in not seeing the things of God of their own free will choice.

Anyways, the text you bring up reminds me of the one in Luke. It says this,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34).

Here we see God lament over His people in Jerusalem. God desires to gather them as children as does a hen does gather her chicks under her wings. But then God says.... they would not come in being gathered. This was THEIR CHOICE. THEY WOULD NOT. NOT.... GOD CAUSED THEM TO WOULD NOT.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Well do not stop at verse 4, keep on going !
Jason you grab verses and teach them out of their context.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Verse 6 makes it clear that God has shone the light in some people's hearts while leaving others to remain blinded by Satan. The facts are spiritual truth is hidden by God, Christ and absolutely Satan as well. Not only does God blind eyes and minds, Satan does also.
The only people who ever get to known and believe the truth are those whom God has foreknown who are predestined , and that is according to His will.

And you are doing the very thing that you are accusing me of. Verse 4 clearly says it is the LIGHT of the GOSPEL that should shine unto them. It doesn't say God forces them to see by some kind of regeneration. It is by the light of the gospel that they would be able to see. Read it again.


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[Bible Highlighter]

And you would believe that, after knowing the truth about my sin and where it leads, that I would turn down the free gift of Salvation made possible by the blood of Christ? If there was a choice here, it was, without question, the easiest YES. I would have never seen my sin, or understood the gift if He had not changed my way of thinking, so to speak. I had been blind, unable to understand, because I was not spiritually capable of doing so. I give God all the credit for my inheritance, as it is plainly written in the Scriptures. I deserve nothing, and yet He decided differently. I do no good, but He sees me differently. God not only created me, but He also made me new and for that I am doubly grateful.

You're bold to claim that any man has all knowledge of God; that their theology, and only theirs is right, and others are wrong. There are many more here that do not agree with your line of thinking than those that agree with you. That has to mean something.

I am curious. Please do not take this the wrong way. I am merely trying to figure out what you believe.

Okay. So are you saying that you accepted the gospel fully knowing that you could sin and still be saved?

Or was this a belief that shortly followed?


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[sdowney717]

No. The text does not say they have closed their eyes because it was God causing them to be closed from the very beginning. God is not unrighteous. Yes, God can cause people not to see, but this is because people initially harden their own hearts in not seeing the things of God of their own free will choice.

Anyways, the text you bring up reminds me of the one in Luke. It says this,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34).

Here we see God lament over His people in Jerusalem. God desires to gather them as children as does a hen does gather her chicks under her wings. But then God says.... they would not come in being gathered. This was THEIR CHOICE. THEY WOULD NOT. NOT.... GOD CAUSED THEM TO WOULD NOT.


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Jason, your argument is way off in outer space.
What does Moses tell the people in v4?
Deuteronomy 29New King James Version (NKJV)
The Covenant Renewed in Moab
These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders.

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

No where does it suggest they hardened their hearts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, your argument is way off in outer space.
What does Moses tell the people in v4?
Deuteronomy 29New King James Version (NKJV)
The Covenant Renewed in Moab
These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders.

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

No where does it suggest they hardened their hearts.

Well, the Bible has to be read as a whole.

For the Bible says this about the Israelite's hearts,

"Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:" (Psalm 95:8)

This is repeated in the New Testament in Hebrews 3:8.

The point is that a person's heart is hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (and not by some kind of initial forced blindness by God).

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:13


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[FreeGrace2]

Saul was once in favor with God but then Saul fell away from the Lord and died in his sins (unsaved). The being that talked with Saul thru the witch of Endor was a demon impersonating the prophet Samuel and it was not actually Samuel. How so?

This claim is just a denial of what Scripture SAYS directly.

#1. Necromancy or the consulting of mediums is clearly condemned by the Lord our God in the Holy Scriptures (Deuteronomy 18:11)(Isaiah 8:19). Think for a moment. If the Lord did not answer or communicate to Saul in the usual normal good ways of God (i.e. official channels), why would He permit Samuel to do so by a means of the dark arts (Which is forbidden in Scripture)? For if a believer were to hold to your viewpoint on this issue, this would give a believer a loophole or the okay that they can consult mediums in order to contact God if their prayers are not being answered (Which is wrong). Therefore, it is clear that this was not the Lord talking thru Samuel from the dead, but it was a devil impersonating Samuel.

I guess you're calling the writer of the book, a liar then.

#2. In the story of Lazarus and the Richman: Abraham says that it is a futile effort for the dead to warn the living about hell or what could befall them (Luke 16:27-31). Abraham points out that they have Moses and the Prophets. Why? Because God wants us to walk by faith. He wants us to trust the warnings by God's people or His Word and not in some consultation with a familar spirit. Also, if Saul was on his way to Paradise, then Samuel would have said something to comfort him. But the exact opposite emotion had befallen Saul by Samuel's message. He had great fear over what he heard. Did this lead Saul to repent of his sins? No. It led to him committing suicide (Which is a sin that you cannot repent of).

Irrelevant. Samuel wasn't warning Saul about hell.

#3. Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death (1 Samuel 15:35). Yes, Samuel seen Saul prophecy before him (1 Samuel 19:24). But Saul was seeking to find David and Samuel. Samuel was not seeking to see Saul. Samuel did not set out to see Saul until the actual day of his death. This means that Samuel could not have visited Saul by way of a some vision that supports witchcraft or the dark arts. For the being claiming to be Samuel said, "...to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me." Did you catch that? This text is saying that Samuel would have set out to see Saul the day before his death. But that does not jive with 1 Samuel 15:35 that says Samuel did not see Saul until the day of his death. Samuel was already dead when Saul died. So Samuel could only set out to see Saul at his death in the after-life.

Again, irrelevant. The Bible SAYS that Samuel talked with Saul. Again, your view calls the Bible a liar.

#4. God had COMPLETELY rejected Saul and He had declined to communicate with him in any way. Again, stop and think for a moment. Why on Earth would the Lord stop answering Saul and yet give credence to believers consulting mediums by answering him by means of the dark arts? It just doesn't make sense.

What makes sense is WHAT the Bible SAYS. Not what your emotions emote. Saul joined Samuel when he died. Period.

#5. Saul was later condemned for consulting one who had a familar spirit (1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Why would God endorse something that He later condemned? It just doesn't add up. In fact, read 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 very closely. It says Saul consulted one who had a familar spirit and by the fact that he enquired of it (i.e. the familar spirit and NOT Samuel). This is irrefutal proof. Read the text slowly and with an open mind by way of prayer.

Yes, the medium was demon possessed. No doubt. Which is why God condemned and forbade the practice. But this was a one off seance where Samuel actually appeared. The proof: the reaction of the medium when Samuel appeared. She wasn't expecting the actual man, whom she recognized. Don't you think a prophet of the legacy of Samuel would be recognized? Of course.

#6. Saul did not actually SEE Samuel. The witch of Endor merely told Saul that she had seen an "old man" and that he was "covered with a mantle (cloak or robe)" From this information given to Saul, he then believed it was Samuel. A discussion then took place between Saul and what he believed to be as the prophet Samuel. For he was desperate to hear anything at this point. However, this was clearly not Samuel, though. For one, this being claiming to be Samuel did not know why Saul had summoned him. Two, the witch had seen gods ascending and descending. In the book of Job, "...the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." (Job 1:7). Three, the witch was allowing it's familar spirit to speak thru her (Again see 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). In fact, we see many cases of demons speaking thru their hosts in the rest of Scripture (Matthew 8:29-31)(Mark 1:23-24) (Mark 9:26) (Luke 4:33-34) (Acts 16:16-18).

I'll repeat the TRUTH; Saul spoke with Samuel. The Bible SAYS SO.

Now, did Saul have God's grace or mercy in the end? Not according to Scripture.

Sure. Not the end of his physical life, for "God killed him" for going to the medium. 1 Chron 10:14 But Saul was a believer and joined Samuel in Paradise BECAUSE no one loses salvation.

Side Note:

Does the text claiming that this is Samuel mean it is Samuel? No. Not at all. For one, the Bible tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light. Two, Anti-Trinitarians make the false claim that Jesus is not God by pointing to passages that say Jesus is the Son of Man, etc. But one needs to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to get a clear picture that Jesus is in fact God and that the Trinity is true. It is no different with understanding on what being was actually talking with Saul involving the witch of Endor, too. All the evidence in Scripture needs to be looked at objectively....

All of this is irrelevant. The Bible SAYS that Samuel spoke with Saul. And that Saul spoke with Samuel.

There is NO MENTION of any spirit being, ghost, etc in the text. The text clearly indicates that Samuel appeared and spoke with Saul.

The truth can be denied and rejected, but it's the truth nonetheless. And the truth refutes your view of loss of salvation. As proven by 1 Sam 28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But again, the Bible talks about how seals can be broken elsewhere.

This is just so irrelevant. The verses TELL US WHAT this seal is FOR: the day of redemption. What does that mean to you?

So this does not prove your case.

Your denial does not disprove my case. My case is proven by Scripture.

Nowhere does the verse say that it is an unbreakable seal.

Why should anyone assume it could be broken BEFORE the day of redemption then? Remember, this sealing is a GUARANTEE, a PROMISE, which is FOR the day of redemption.

If there isn't any verse that addresses this sealing being broken BEFORE the day of redemption, you have no point.

That is something you are adding to the text, my friend. The Bible is very clear on the topic of believers falling away....

Of course believers can fall away. But there is NO verse that indicates that falling away from the faith means or results in loss of salvation.

That opinion has not, because it cannot, be shown from Scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This claim is just a denial of what Scripture SAYS directly.


I guess you're calling the writer of the book, a liar then.


Irrelevant. Samuel wasn't warning Saul about hell.


Again, irrelevant. The Bible SAYS that Samuel talked with Saul. Again, your view calls the Bible a liar.


What makes sense is WHAT the Bible SAYS. Not what your emotions emote. Saul joined Samuel when he died. Period.


Yes, the medium was demon possessed. No doubt. Which is why God condemned and forbade the practice. But this was a one off seance where Samuel actually appeared. The proof: the reaction of the medium when Samuel appeared. She wasn't expecting the actual man, whom she recognized. Don't you think a prophet of the legacy of Samuel would be recognized? Of course.


I'll repeat the TRUTH; Saul spoke with Samuel. The Bible SAYS SO.


Sure. Not the end of his physical life, for "God killed him" for going to the medium. 1 Chron 10:14 But Saul was a believer and joined Samuel in Paradise BECAUSE no one loses salvation.


All of this is irrelevant. The Bible SAYS that Samuel spoke with Saul. And that Saul spoke with Samuel.

There is NO MENTION of any spirit being, ghost, etc in the text. The text clearly indicates that Samuel appeared and spoke with Saul.

The truth can be denied and rejected, but it's the truth nonetheless. And the truth refutes your view of loss of salvation. As proven by 1 Sam 28.

I am going to make this real simple for you, my friend. If you cannot see it after this, then there is no point in continuing further on this matter.

Okay, here we go.

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;" (1 Chronicles 10:13).​

In the first part of this verse, we are told that Saul died for his transgression he committed against the Lord AND for being against the word of the Lord of which he kept not. Scriptures states this about keeping God's Word.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:4-5).

Okay, now on to the second part of the verse,

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;" (1 Chronicles 10:13).​

The text here says that one of the final reasons Saul died was for asking counsel of one (the witch of Endor) who had a familar spirit.

Okay. So who had a familar spirit? The witch of Endor.

What is a familar spirit? A demon.

What did Saul do with this familar spirit? The text ends in saying that Saul enquired of IT (i.e. the familar spirit and not Samuel).

The "IT" here is the "Familar spirit" or the "demon" and it is NOT Samuel. There is no other way to read this. This text is irrefutable proof that Saul consulted with a demon and not with the prophet Samuel.


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[FreeGrace2]

Suicide is a sin that leads to hell.

#1. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:17).

#2. John says, no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Suicide is self murder.

#3. Scripture says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." (1 John 1:9). How can you confess of your sins if you are dead? Does not 1 John 1:9 say we are forgiven of sin if we confess our sin? In fact, Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So we can conclude that Saul was not saved because he committed suicide and stayed dead....

None of these verses support your opinion.

#1 refers to physical life being destroyed. Because no one is destroyed in hell. They will be in torment forever. The only thing that can be destroyed is our physical bodies, not our souls.

#2: it should be obvious to everyone that not every verse is easily understood. 1 Jn 5:9-13 provides the assurance of salvation, or eternal security. So nothing prior to that would be contrary to that. And 1 Jn 3:15 isn't teaching that committing murder loses salvation or eternal life, as you assume. The key is "abiding". John's concept of "abiding" is always that it is a reciprocal relationship, or FELLOWSHIP. So those believers who murder are not having fellowship with Christ.

#3: Confession of sins is in the context of FELLOWSHIP, which John mentions FOUR times in the first chapter before he gets to v.9.

But those who do not understand the difference between relationship, which is PERMAMENT, and fellowship, which is conditional, will not understand how to understand these verses.

The Bible is very clear about Saul. The Holy Spirit came upon him mightily, and he was changed into another man. 1 Sam 10:6. This is a clear statement about Saul being saved and regenerated.

And Samuel told him that he would join him the next day when he died. Since Samuel went to Paradise after death, that is where Saul went as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But seals are not broken on God's side.

So to think that God would break a seal is incorrect

Sadly, those who preach conditional salvation (salvation can be lost) believe that they themselves are strong enough to break that seal.