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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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FreeGrace2

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I am going to make this real simple for you, my friend. If you cannot see it after this, then there is no point in continuing further on this matter.

Okay, here we go.

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;" (1 Chronicles 10:13).​

In the first part of this verse, we are told that Saul died for his transgression he committed against the Lord AND for being against the word of the Lord of which he kept not. Scriptures states this about keeping God's Word.
This verse, and the next one, speak of what is called the sin unto death, described directly in 1 Jn 5:16, whereby God removes the believer from this life to heaven, which results in loss of future eternal rewards.

Okay, now on to the second part of the verse,

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;" (1 Chronicles 10:13).​

The text here says that one of the final reasons Saul died was for asking counsel of one (the witch of Endor) who had a familar spirit.
Yes, that is why God killed him (v.14). So what? What Samuel told him still stands.

Okay. So who had a familar spirit? The witch of Endor.

What is a familar spirit? A demon.
The demon was in the woman. That's what a medium is; demon possessed. This isn't all that difficult.

But just note her reaction when Samuel actually showed up: When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 1 Sam 28:12

To "cry with a loud voice" means to SCREAM. The Hebrew word for "cried" means "shriek". And she did it with a LOUD VOICE.

What did Saul do with this familar spirit? The text ends in saying that Saul enquired of IT (i.e. the familar spirit and not Samuel).
The demon was IN the woman. But Samuel actually DID show up. That's obviously and clearly what the text SAYS. Deal with it.
 
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None of these verses support your opinion.

#1 refers to physical life being destroyed. Because no one is destroyed in hell. They will be in torment forever. The only thing that can be destroyed is our physical bodies, not our souls.

#2: it should be obvious to everyone that not every verse is easily understood. 1 Jn 5:9-13 provides the assurance of salvation, or eternal security. So nothing prior to that would be contrary to that. And 1 Jn 3:15 isn't teaching that committing murder loses salvation or eternal life, as you assume. The key is "abiding". John's concept of "abiding" is always that it is a reciprocal relationship, or FELLOWSHIP. So those believers who murder are not having fellowship with Christ.

#3: Confession of sins is in the context of FELLOWSHIP, which John mentions FOUR times in the first chapter before he gets to v.9.

But those who do not understand the difference between relationship, which is PERMAMENT, and fellowship, which is conditional, will not understand how to understand these verses.

The Bible is very clear about Saul. The Holy Spirit came upon him mightily, and he was changed into another man. 1 Sam 10:6. This is a clear statement about Saul being saved and regenerated.

And Samuel told him that he would join him the next day when he died. Since Samuel went to Paradise after death, that is where Saul went as well.
I have heard this odd belief before and it simply does not match up with Scripture in what it actually says. The epistle of John is not talking excusively about fellowship as you and many others must claim if one can think they can sin and still be saved.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. This is talking about actual sin being cleansed. Sin being cleansed means one has salvation.

Also, John contrasts eternal life with death many times thru out his entire epistle. There is no mention of physical death in relation to physical life going on here. John is speaking in spiritual terms thru out his entire epistle.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. This does not sound like fellowship to me and it is in placed in the epistle for a reason.

1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 2:29 he that does righteousness is born of God.

There is no other way to understand the plain straight forward meaing of these verses. They mean exactly what they say at face value.

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The demon was IN the woman. But Samuel actually DID show up. That's obviously and clearly what the text SAYS. Deal with it.

No. Saul was not enquiring of the familar spirit in the woman when all of a sudden Samuel showed up. Nowhere did we ever see that happen in Scripture. The only being that talked with the woman was the one spirit in 1 Samuel 28. 1 Chronicles 10:13 is unmistakable that Saul enquired specifically with a familar spirit with no mention of Samuel. Yet, in 1 Samuel 28 we so no mention of Saul enquiring of this familar spirit within her (When Samuel suddenly appeared). Who was Saul enquiring with involving this witch? A being who appeared as Samuel. There wasn't TWO spirit beings in the after-life Samuel was conversing with. That is something you are adding to Scripture, my friend.

Nowhere did Saul enquire of the witch to seek out the help of her demon so as to contact God or Samuel.


....
 
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This is just so irrelevant. The verses TELL US WHAT this seal is FOR: the day of redemption. What does that mean to you?


Your denial does not disprove my case. My case is proven by Scripture.


Why should anyone assume it could be broken BEFORE the day of redemption then? Remember, this sealing is a GUARANTEE, a PROMISE, which is FOR the day of redemption.

If there isn't any verse that addresses this sealing being broken BEFORE the day of redemption, you have no point.


Of course believers can fall away. But there is NO verse that indicates that falling away from the faith means or results in loss of salvation.

That opinion has not, because it cannot, be shown from Scripture.

In Matthew 7, Jesus says to certain professing believers that he never knew them because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin.


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FreeGrace2

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Jason,

Instead of responding to your lat 3 posts, which is just a re-hash of what has already been posted, let's consider one last passage.

1 Thess 5:4-11

4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

OK, v.4-7 provide a contrast between lifestyles of believers with unbelievers: light and darkness, awake/sober and sleep/drunk.

v.8 because we are believers, we are to be sober and awake, not drunk or sleeping, as unbelievers do.
v.9 states that believers are not destined for wrath but obtaining salvation through Christ.
v.10 nails eternal security: regardless of our lifestyle (that being awake or asleep, or sober or drunk), we might live with Him.
v.11 tells us to encourage other believers and build them up in this principle.

To tell another believer that they may end up in hell because of lifestyle clearly indicates that Christ's death on the cross for them wasn't enough.

Such a view is blasphemy. We are saved by grace through faith. Not works. Not lifestyle.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, please address each verse, as I've done, with an explanation of what it means and the meaning of the text.
 
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GillDouglas

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I am curious. Please do not take this the wrong way. I am merely trying to figure out what you believe.

Okay. So are you saying that you accepted the gospel fully knowing that you could sin and still be saved?
Or was this a belief that shortly followed?
....

Learning that I was still susceptible to sin was an understanding that came later. Fully grasping the process, details, etc. of Salvation wasn't something I understood right away. What I had understood initially was that I was a sinner in need of a Savior. The Good News that I accepted was that, even though I was an enemy of God He had set me aside for His glory.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Actually, it is unbiblical to teach that one is regenerated before believing in the gospel. For it is a denial that one is ultimately saved by the power of the preaching of the cross and or in how it's light shines upon us.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Yet, in your belief, you are giving me the impression that the power of God is in Election or in the Lord choosing people to be regenerated first. But that is not what the Scriptures say, though...
Regeneration before belief is not a denial that one is justified only through belief in the gospel.

That may be your spin on it.

But no one that I know of in what is generally referred to as Calvinism holds that position.

You don't get to simply manufacture false doctrines and then refute them. That counts for nothing.
 
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ToBeLoved

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There is no indication that verse 26 is talking about the OT. It is talking about the current New Covenant because it mentions how if we willfully sin after we receive the love of the truth.... This is not OT. There is no receiving of the love of the truth in going backwards towards the OT. The OT is gone. The writer of Hebrews is speaking to New Covenant believers. Truth for them is in reference to Jesus Christ and the gospel (And not the OT).

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No. The writer is writing to the Hebrews who had the forgiveness of sin in the Old Covenant through the sacrifice of animals before Jesus.

You left off the important part 'for which there is no longer sacrifice'.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Regeneration before belief is not a denial that one is justified only through belief in the gospel.

That may be your spin on it.

But no one that I know of in what is generally referred to as Calvinism holds that position that I know of.

You don't get to simply manufacture false doctrines and then refute them. That counts for nothing.
I don't believe in regeneration before faith and salvation either.
 
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Learning that I was still susceptible to sin was an understanding that came later. Fully grasping the process, details, etc. of Salvation wasn't something I understood right away. What I had understood initially was that I was a sinner in need of a Savior. The Good News that I accepted was that, even though I was an enemy of God He had set me aside for His glory.

So you went into the faith believing you could be an enemy of God and yet still be in favor with Him? If that is the case: Then how in the world does that concept work? Where in the Bible does it even teach such an odd concept that a believer can go against common basic morality? Do you see anywhere in the Bible where the apostles displayed socioapathic behavior or that they taught some kind of sociopathic type teaching?


...
 
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No. The writer is writing to the Hebrews who had the forgiveness of sin in the Old Covenant through the sacrifice of animals before Jesus.

You left off the important part 'for which there is no longer sacrifice'.
No. Truth is not in the Old Testament. It is in the New Testament. The author is speaking in the present tense in verse 26 because it says, "if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the Truth." Yes, there other verses in that chapter that are talking about the Old. But the author of Hebrews is going back and forth between the Old and the New in his discussion. He is not just talking exclusively about the Old. Again, the "Truth" is not in the Old. However, to suggest that receiving the truth is talking about the Old Covenant would be like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It just doesn't fit.


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Regeneration before belief is not a denial that one is justified only through belief in the gospel.

That may be your spin on it.

But no one that I know of in what is generally referred to as Calvinism holds that position that I know of.

You don't get to simply manufacture false doctrines and then refute them. That counts for nothing.

The Bible talks about how it is the light of the gospel that should shine unto them that are in darkness. It does not speak of God first regenerating people before they believe the gospel. The Bible says the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishiness. The gospel is the power of God. But to place the gospel in second place over regeneration is to take away the power of the gospel. It is to water the gospel down. The focus of salvation focuses on not telling man about the gospel but it focuses on telling man about regeneration. But that is not what we see in the Scriptures. The jailer asked what must he do to be saved. Paul essentially said for him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul did not mention anything about how he first would need to be regenerated by God or anything (so as to believe the gospel).


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GillDouglas

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So you went into the faith believing you could be an enemy of God and yet still be in favor with Him? If that is the case: Then how in the world does that concept work? Where in the Bible does it even teach such an odd concept that a believer can go against common basic morality? Do you see anywhere in the Bible where the apostles displayed socioapathic behavior or that they taught some kind of sociopathic type teaching?


...

Romans 5:8-10 - But God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.
 
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Jason,

Instead of responding to your lat 3 posts, which is just a re-hash of what has already been posted, let's consider one last passage.

1 Thess 5:4-11

4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

OK, v.4-7 provide a contrast between lifestyles of believers with unbelievers: light and darkness, awake/sober and sleep/drunk.

v.8 because we are believers, we are to be sober and awake, not drunk or sleeping, as unbelievers do.
v.9 states that believers are not destined for wrath but obtaining salvation through Christ.
v.10 nails eternal security: regardless of our lifestyle (that being awake or asleep, or sober or drunk), we might live with Him.
v.11 tells us to encourage other believers and build them up in this principle.

To tell another believer that they may end up in hell because of lifestyle clearly indicates that Christ's death on the cross for them wasn't enough.

Such a view is blasphemy. We are saved by grace through faith. Not works. Not lifestyle.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, please address each verse, as I've done, with an explanation of what it means and the meaning of the text.

Paul is talking about faithful believers in this passage. How so? Just keep reading on into 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7.

"6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;"

I mean, stop and think. The unprofitable servant is going to be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). This does not sound like they are going to be saved or anything.

Also, Jesus used real world examples (parables) to illustrate spiritual truth. So if you believe God teaches that a saint can sin and still be saved, then surely this truth can be illustrated by way of a real world example.


...
 
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Romans 5:8-10 - But God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.

This passage is not talking about a believer's state of being when they first come to the faith. This passage is talking about how Christ paid the price for sin by the sacrifice he made on the cross so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. In other words, Christ died for mankind when he was still a sinner (Which took place while on the cross). However, this does not mean God is endorsing sin or allowing sinners to be saved while they sin. There is nothing in this passage that suggests that you can remain in your sin and still be saved. Jesus was merely paying the price for sin so as to offer man the free gift of salvation.


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GillDouglas

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This passage is not talking about a believer's state of being when they first come to the faith. This passage is talking about how Christ paid the price for sin by the sacrifice he made on the cross so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. In other words, Christ died for mankind when he was still a sinner (Which took place while on the cross). However, this does not mean God is endorsing sin or allowing sinners to be saved while they sin. There is nothing in this passage that suggests that you can remain in your sin and still be saved. Jesus was merely paying the price for sin so as to offer man the free gift of salvation.
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Your idea of Salvation is utterly and totally screwed up. You need help, God's help. I will pray for you, friend.
 
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sdowney717

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This passage is not talking about a believer's state of being when they first come to the faith. This passage is talking about how Christ paid the price for sin by the sacrifice he made on the cross so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. In other words, Christ died for mankind when he was still a sinner (Which took place while on the cross). However, this does not mean God is endorsing sin or allowing sinners to be saved while they sin. There is nothing in this passage that suggests that you can remain in your sin and still be saved. Jesus was merely paying the price for sin so as to offer man the free gift of salvation.


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You do not understand the NC at all, claiming a saved person sins and they are tossed out of the kingdom.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Hebrews 8
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:7
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Romans 5:16
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 6:2
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:6-20
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1
[ Free from Indwelling Sin ] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 11:27
For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.













 
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Your idea of Salvation is utterly and totally screwed up.

Your kidding, right? My belief that God is good and He wants His people to be good is messed up? Right. Well, I am not the one who is promoting that a believer can do horrible acts of evil with no remorse and or with no repentance and still be saved. For God to allow such a thing would mean that the Lord condones evil and that is not possible. God is good. He is not evil.

You need help, God's help. I will pray for you, friend.

I feel pretty confident I do not need the help of the type of god that you are offering and that your prayers would actually work in any way. For such a god (little "g") that you are teaching does not exist in the Scriptures because He allows for a believer to sin and still be saved (According to what you have said so far). For if such is the case, then you are not fooling anyone. The Scriptures say that all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). The Scriptures also say that he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:4). Then again, you shouldn't need a Bible to tell you that doing evil is wrong and that it is not acceptable to a Holy and good God in giving a person a free pass in doing evil. It's basic common sense (Unless of course one is a sociopath and cannot understand the concept of basic morality). So no, dear sir. I will pray for you (And it will actually matter because I believe in the real living God as described in the Scriptures). I will pray for you to understand that God does not condone evil and that He is a good God who is incapable of allowing any kind of injustice to take place (No matter who commits it - For God is not a respecter of persons).


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You do not understand the NC at all, claiming a saved person sins and they are tossed out of the kingdom.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Hebrews 8
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:7
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Romans 5:16
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 6:2
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:6-20
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1
[ Free from Indwelling Sin ] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 11:27
For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Well, if what you say is correct in any way shape or form, then you will have no trouble in making a real world example (i.e. a parable) out of your belief here. But we both know you can't do that, my friend (Which proves that what you are teaching here is not Biblical).

Anyways, In Romans 6, Paul asks, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's reply to that answer is: "God forbid." Meaning, you can't continue in sin so that grace may abound (No matter how much you would like the Scriptures to say that). In addition, Paul also says,

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16).​

Paul here is saying you are a servant to whom you obey (Whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness). This is all too clear. One is obviously being service to satan and the other is in being in service to God. For 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 2:29 says he that does righteousness is born of God.

As for the bulk of Romans 7: Well, Paul is talking from his perspective of when he was a Jew before he became a Christian. For he ends chapter 7 in saying that Jesus Christ is the solution to his struggle in trying to keep the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses - And not all law whatsoever). In fact, we know that this is the case because in Romans 7:14 Paul says he is sold under sin and then in Romans 8:2 he then says he is set free from sin. So unless Paul has a dual split personality, he is talking from two different perspectives.

As for Romans 8: Well, we have a nice beautiful verse that totally refutes Antinomianism, Hyper Grace, or Easy Believism. It says,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

Now, catch this. In order to not be under the Condemnation according to the verse above, one has to:

(a) Be in Christ Jesus.
(b) Walk after the Spirit.
(c) And walk not after the flesh.

What is the "Condemnation" according to Scripture?

Read John 3:19-21.

Side Note:

As for having belief so as to receive the remission of sins: Yes, a person can initially have belief in Christ as their Savior and be saved. But this would involve them in turning from their sins and not in them remaining within them. Belief is more than just having a belief on Jesus as a person. Belief involves believing everything Jesus taught and said, too.


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sdowney717

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Your kidding, right? My belief that God is good and He wants His people to be good is messed up? Right. Well, I am not the one who is promoting that a believer can do horrible acts of evil with no remorse and or with no repentance and still be saved. For God to allow such a thing would mean that the Lord condones evil and that is not possible. God is good. He is not evil.



I feel pretty confident I do not need the help of the type of god that you are offering and that your prayers would actually work in any way. For such a god (little "g") that you are teaching does not exist in the Scriptures because He allows for a believer to sin and still be saved (According to what you have said so far). For if such is the case, then you are not fooling anyone. The Scriptures say that all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). The Scriptures also say that he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:4). Then again, you shouldn't need a Bible to tell you that doing evil is wrong and that it is not acceptable to a Holy and good God in giving a person a free pass in doing evil. It's basic common sense (Unless of course one is a sociopath and cannot understand the concept of basic morality). So no, dear sir. I will pray for you (And it will actually matter because I believe in the real living God as described in the Scriptures). I will pray for you to understand that God does not condone evil and that He is a good God who is incapable of allowing any kind of injustice to take place (No matter who commits it - For God is not a respecter of persons).


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It seems to me that you deny the power of God in the new birth that transforms us into a new creation IN Christ Jesus, that now has our fruit set to holiness and not corruption and sin.
You're still pumping up the old man, the old covenant, the law. You are an old covenant Christian which is a corrupt impossibility.
In the NC we are justified by faith and by His blood, and if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus Christ.
You do not get kicked out from the NC like you would in the OC due to your sins. Both covenants, sins were atoned for, the NC sins are atoned for permanently for believers.

Romans 8:34
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Believers are kept by the power of God through faith.
1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

But you claim a single sin destroys faith and so therefore a saved person becomes instantly unsaved.
Faith is a gift of God. And gifts of God can not be revoked. In other words, eternal life is for those who believe.
People believe by grace alone and not by doing works, something your words deny.


Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;


 
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