Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Seems to me your promoting doing good and being good to be counted as perfect and be accepted by God.

It's not my good or righteousness I am promoting. It is the goodness of Christ (God) working in me that I am promoting. But yes; A believer does have to live righteously (By letting the light of Christ shine in their life) or they will not see God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, Romans 4:5 is not talking about justifying someone who is being presently ungodly. It is talking about justifying someone who used to live an ungodly life as a part of their old life. Justification is about coming to the faith (or in renewing it) and it is not about the Sanctification process done in a believer's life.


...

 

[sdowney717]

Thank God we don't sanctify ourselves
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

John 17:17
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

John 17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

1 Thessalonians 5:23
[ Blessing and Admonition ] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yup, Christ justifies the ungodly by His blood and that is permanent.
Romans 5
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

 

[sdowney717]

Something God does is He sanctifies us.
We do not sanctify ourselves to God.

sanc·ti·fy
ˈsaNG(k)təˌfī/
verb

1. set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.
   "a small shrine was built to sanctify the site"
   synonyms: consecrate, bless, make holy, hallow,make sacred, dedicate to God
   "he came to sanctify the site"
   • make legitimate or binding by religious sanction.
     "they see their love sanctified by the sacrament of marriage"
     synonyms: approve, sanction, condone, vindicate,endorse, support, back, permit, allow,authorize, legitimize
     "we must not sanctify this outrage"
   • free from sin; purify.
     synonyms: purify, cleanse, free from sin, absolve,unburden, redeem
     "they sanctified themselves"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm sure that many here are a little mixed up as to which commandments exactly Jesus told us to keep and which ones you say we must not break or we will lose our eternal life.

Maybe we are the "dense" ones after all. It is possible I suppose.

But since you love your brothers and sisters and want them to get to Heaven - surely you'll be a little more specific for us.

After all - you love your slow witted brothers and sisters don't you? You do believe that our lives depend on knowing exactly how to get to Heaven don't you?

You have the answer, you say.

Please don't beat around the bush any longer. Our lives and the lives of perhaps a hundred would-be children of God who are listening in depend on your being forthright with us.

Thanks for doing so. I know you will because to not love us enough to explain it to us in detail means you are not loving us and you will perhaps lose your salvation if you don't level with us in great detail.

For all of our sakes please do what the Lord told you to do.

Tell us exactly how we can get saved and stay saved so we can escape Hell and get to Heaven in the end.

Hopefully I can confess my sin to the Lord if I break one of those mortal sins you talk about.

But what if a car hits me before I repent of one of the big ones? Am I lost then?

Please help us out here. We want to know what the good news is exactly according to you.

I've had quite a bit of trouble with certain sins over the last 50 years or so. So some of that stuff that Jesus told us before He laid down His life at Calvary seems a little like bad news to me.

Please - tell me the good news according to EmSw.

Well, the gospel is not a license for a believer to sin until they reach perfection. Grace is only found if one humbles themselves before God and they call out to God to have mercy on their sins (Whereby they are honestly seeking to stop in the wrong that they are doing). For a believer has to change. For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say? Also, Christians obey the Commands or laws in the New Testament and not the Old Testament. For the Old Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. But that does not mean there is no more law for the believer today, though.

Here is a link to 1,050 New Testament Commands.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

The only commands that I did not see on their list is the following:

• Believe & confess that Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh (John 8:24 cf. John 8:57, 58, 59) (1 John 4:3).

• Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

• Visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27).

• Feed and clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, and those in prison (Matthew 25:35, 36).

• "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21).

• Thank God without ceasing. (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

• Receive the word of God not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

• Give to the poor needy brother; Especially if you wish them well (James 2:15)

• Pray the Lord's prayer (As an outline) (Matthew 6:9-13)

• Pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

• Bear with them that preach another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4)

• Reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11)

• Correct and train others in the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

• Walk in the Spirit: This will result in the 9 fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5)

• How to love according to 1 Corinthians 13.

• Keep the words of the prophecy of Revelation (Revelation 1:3).

• Live by speaking the Word of God (Which is our daily bread) (Matthew 4:4)

• Study to show yourself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15)

• Put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:11-17)

• Be ye Holy as God is Holy (1 Peter 1:16)

• Do not add or take away from God's Word (Revelation 22:18, 19)

• If we as believers sin, we are to confess our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9)

• Do all things thru Christ (Philippians 4:13)

Granted, I am sure there are more.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank God we don't sanctify ourselves
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

John 17:17
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

John 17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

1 Thessalonians 5:23
[ Blessing and Admonition ] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yup, Christ justifies the ungodly by His blood and that is permanent.
Romans 5
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

You are actually quoting verses that discredit what you are saying.

Anyways, here is a verse that makes it clear that we are to sanctify ourselves, too.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1).


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

One's masters is determined by what type of fruit they are bringing forth. Jesus said we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit (i.e. deeds). This makes sense because the Scriptures say elsewhere, he that does righteousness is righteous. He that sins is of the devil.
...

I disagree with this.

We start off without God as our master because we are full of self and want to satisfy our flesh.

However, once a person is saved God becomes their master. They do NOT go back and forth between serving God and satan.

What I read that you said is when we are not sinning God is our master and if we are sinning than satan is.

But it does not work that way, back and forth. Each person has one master.

 

[sdowney717]

That we believe in Christ is by grace and not of ourselves
Here is a different verse people may not have noticed before.
Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

So many people claim they believed other than solely by grace. I suppose by force of mind, they think they are better learners, had better luck, were smarter and wiser than those other poor slobs who are Darwinian rejects.

 

[sdowney717]

You are actually quoting verses that discredit what you are saying.

Anyways, here is a verse that makes it clear that we are to sanctify ourselves, too.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1).


...

No doubt people are to pursue holiness, but see Jason, it is the Lord who sanctifies us not we ourselves.
To sanctify in that way we are accepted into the beloved, not because we do good but because we are the children of God.
He washes us clean in His own blood, He is the one who makes us born again.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Such words as these must fall on deaf ears?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I disagree with this.

We start off without God as our master because we are full of self and want to satisfy our flesh.

However, once a person is saved God becomes their master. They do NOT go back and forth between serving God and satan.

What I read that you said is when we are not sinning God is our master and if we are sinning than satan is.

But it does not work that way, back and forth. Each person has one master.

No. The Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29).


...

 

[nobdysfool]

See my post to Marvin #1767

Why do I get the feeling that there is much more to it than that? You can't be bothered to post details, in depth, but you're very quick to tell us that we must obey all of them to ensure our salvation. I think you're holding out. You want to have something to set yourself above the rest of us. Jason posted much more in answer to this question, that wasn't even directed at him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No doubt people are to pursue holiness, but see Jason, it is the Lord who sanctifies us not we ourselves.
To sanctify in that way we are accepted into the beloved, not because we do good but because we are the children of God.
He washes us clean in His own blood, He is the one who makes us born again.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Such words as these must fall on deaf ears?

Then you deny 2 Corinthians 7:1 in what it says. It is clearly saying we have a part to play in becoming holy or righteous. Granted, all goodness or righteousness comes from God. We simply yield or submit to God and He does the good work in us. So I cannot take the credit. But nowhere does God act as some kind of body snatcher who forces me to do good. My free will is still intact.

....

 

[sdowney717]

No. The Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29).


...

So Jason, do you commit sins?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That we believe in Christ is by grace and not of ourselves
Here is a different verse people may not have noticed before.
Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

So many people claim they believed other than solely by grace. I suppose by force of mind, they think they are better learners, had better luck, were smarter and wiser than those other poor slobs who are Darwinian rejects.

People have free will. They will all be held accountable in either accepting or rejecting Jesus in this life. If not, then the Judgment is a joke or a farce. For you cannot pass Judgment on someone who cannot help the way that they are. For if a person is infected with a disease that turns them into a mindless flesh eating zombie, they cannot be held accountable for their actions.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Jason, do you commit sins?

John is talking about commiting sin as a way of life day in and day out. John is not referring to a believer who will not stumble on occasion in their walk with God. For many of God's people have stumbled in their faith. But they did not stay in a fallen sinful state and think they were saved, though. You will not find one believer in the Bible who thought they could sin and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. Grace and forgiveness only come when one confesses and forsakes sin. If a believer honestly struggles with sin, they have God and the church to help them to overcome it. But it is not normal for a believer to remain in their sin and think that they are saved. It doesn't work like that. Even life teaches us that good guys do good and bad guys do bad.


...

 

[EmSw]

Why do I get the feeling that there is much more to it than that?

How much more do you require? Nobody else has these symptoms.

You can't be bothered to post details, in depth, but you're very quick to tell us that we must obey all of them to ensure our salvation. I think you're holding out. You want to have something to set yourself above the rest of us. Jason posted much more in answer to this question, that wasn't even directed at him.

NB, you can choose of yourself whether to obey or not. I do not make that decision for anyone.

I want to set myself above others??? The party is in Miami, and you are on the train to Bangkok.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In addition, it's also a pretty safe bet that God does not want anyone to sin (or to make a decision that is sinful), either. So if this is the case, then why would God force blindness upon them so as to remain in their sins? Doesn't make sense. You would think God would want all men to have the choice to at least accept or reject the truth. Furthermore, how can God hold accountable for someone's actions when they had no other choice otherwise, too?


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

It's not my good or righteousness I am promoting. It is the goodness of Christ (God) working in me that I am promoting. But yes; A believer does have to live righteously (By letting the light of Christ shine in their life) or they will not see God.

You say that it is Christ working in us to keep us on the straight and narrow and to return us if we stray.

But elsewhere it was said by you and others that we die when we sin.

How does God continue to work in us after we have died and no longer have Him in us?

Or does God continue to leave us alive until we pass over and then kill us spiritually by withdrawing His Spirit from us?

Please clarify this as per what we usually call regeneration. Do we die if we go so far and then are we regenerated again - - - and the cycle can go on many times throughout our life?

Please clarify these things for us.

Thanks!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You say that it is Christ working in us to keep us on the straight and narrow and to return us if we stray.

But elsewhere it was said by you and others that we die when we sin.

How does God continue to work in us after we have died and no longer have Him in us?

Or does God continue to leave us alive until we pass over and then kill us spiritually by withdrawing His Spirit from us?

Please clarify this as per what we usually call regeneration. Do we die if we go so far and then are we regenerated again - - - and the cycle can go on many times throughout our life?

Please clarify these things for us.

Thanks!

It's a cooperation with God involving our own free will. In regards to salvation: God is not going to force you to do something against your own will. You have to willingly submit to God and agree with the good work He wants to do in you. It's not like you were somehow zapped into the Kingdom and now you are incapable of doing no wrong or anything. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.


....

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'm hoping you aren't being facetious here. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and answer your questions.

I was being facetious in my post.

That's because I don't think the things you say can be called, by any stretch of the imagination, "good news".
QUOTE="EmSw, post: 69050582, member: 351959"]
When asked what a man should do to inherit eternal life, Jesus asked what was written in the law. The lawyer answered, love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself (the two great commandments). Jesus said he answered correctly, so there is no need to guess how to inherit eternal life. Then Jesus answers, 'do this and you will live'.

So we see it is love by which man is saved and inherits eternal life.
Yes, it takes faith to be saved, but faith doesn't work without love. Man is nothing with faith alone; he must have love also. [/QUOTE]
I don't believe that I have ever in my life loved God with all my heart.

I don't believe that I have ever loved my neighbor as I have loved myself either.

I'm in a world of hurt according to you.

I've always had the right to "saved and inherits eternal life" through loving God fully and loving my neighbor as myself as you say.

That's the bad old news.

What's the new good news? What is the gospel that we preach to the world?
QUOTE="EmSw, post: 69050582, member: 351959"]
I hope this helps. I will not be answering all your questions, as I believe I have answered them here.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your going to the effort to answer my questions. I didn't expect an answer to tell you the truth.

I won't be continuing to ask question upon question for long.

But please do tell me what the good news is that you are preaching to us. I'm missing it.

Also how can I overcome my sin if the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn and I am spiritually dead?

Can I be regenerated again and again and be born again again and again?

Thanks!