Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

I know plenty of unsaved who haven't committed murder. I wonder how they kept this commandment. Perhaps you can tell me.

Not all unsaved will break all or particular commandments. The common grace of God restrains sin according to His will. Only God could say for certain why the unsaved (if they're even unsaved to begin with I can not say) you know have not committed murder. It is safe to say that they have at least broken one, and if they are truly unsaved, do not struggle with such a life because it is in their nature.

 

[GillDouglas]

Sir, I know I offend you, in fact, one of the biggest offenders on this forum. I guess I should be thankful, by this I know I am blessed by the Lord.

I said those who do not keep His commandments do not know Him, not those who struggle with sin. You said no one can keep His commandments, so no one can know Him according to your words.

If you or I misunderstood, I apologize. No one is capable of keeping His commandments on his own. There are also times that a man may stumble, slip, and fall. Luckily we have a Savoir who is able to lift us up through those trying times, the Lord who has redeemed us also teaches us.

 

[EmSw]

There are some worse - with whom I've discussed things in the past.

But he is certainly right up there in the top tier.

At first I thought that he just didn't understand what Calvinists believed. Then I thought that he might just be a little slow.

But after a lot of give and take and correcting him many times - with him only continuing to make the same charges again and again - I've come to believe that it is really something quite a bit deeper and much more dangerous.

Top that off with his quite often saying some really silly and illogical things and it is really exasperating. I've sworn off talking to him a few times only to break down and try to reason with him again and again.

2 Timothy 4:1-3 "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires…"

We want to do what the Lord charges us with. But it gets quite tiresome after a while for sure.

Are you saying I am dangerous to Calvinism? I take that as a compliment Marvin. Perhaps you have never met anyone like me. But anyway, I am blessed by what you say about me.

 

[GillDouglas]

Are you saying I am dangerous to Calvinism? I take that as a compliment Marvin. Perhaps you have never met anyone like me. But anyway, I am blessed by what you say about me.

You are dangerous to young Christians who do not fully grasp the nature of the relationship between man and God. Your strongly held beliefs about man's ability to earn salvation will cause more trouble than good. The good news of Christ taught in the Gospels is He did everything right and suffered so that we don't have to. Any teaching opposed to this is dangerous.

 

[EmSw]

If you or I misunderstood, I apologize. No one is capable of keeping His commandments on his own. There are also times that a man may stumble, slip, and fall. Luckily we have a Savoir who is able to lift us up through those trying times, the Lord who has redeemed us also teaches us.

I accept your apology and forgive you.

Amen...Jesus will give us strength to overcome our sins; we don't have to stay and wallow in them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay, those Pharisees were unbelievers. However, you say you are a believer. Can you not obey anything Jesus said?

No one can obey all the commands of Scripture all the time. Even you. I've already proven from Scripture that no one can be justified by keeping the Law. Exactly what Paul taught.

I'm going to use your logic. The phrase says, 'come to me'. This is referring to those who come to Him if they were able. But since, like you said, everyone is a sinner, they can't come to Him. This isn't speaking to anyone; it's just a phrase Jesus used to show that you can't come to Him, and that if you could come to Him, you would could receive eternal life.

I've already explained what "come to Me" means.

Where does Jesus refute anyone for doing good? Perhaps you should read Matthew 26 and show who Jesus refuted.

I never said He refuted anyone for doing good. But He did say that "only God is good" to the rich young ruler who called Him "good". So there you have it; are you God? Then you aren't good.

I said this:
"So, it is really possible for anyone to fulfill either of these verses?

No, for Paul then makes this point crystal clear:
3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Here is your flawed logic. This verse says nothing about anyone not able to do good. You include it to try to justify your beliefs. Since you are under sin, and can't come to Him, I'm afraid that leaves you out.

You failed to keep reading. Rom 3:20 is where Paul taught that keeping the Law (doing good) won't justify anyone. Then he taught that one is justified by faith, not works.

Clear as mud! Since you are a sinner and not perfect, you will never receive eternal life; this is your according to your doctrine. You have just proved you are not really a believer.

I'm just stunned by your extremely flawed logic. Seems you have quite a knack for twisting what others say.

Unless one believes in Christ, they CANNOT receive eternal life. That is the point. Eternal life is a gift of God and is received by faith in Christ.

But you don't believe that. I'd say your view shows that you're not a believer in Christ, but in yourself to save yourself by earning eternal life by doing good, which Paul taught that no one can do continually (Rom 2:6).

Wow, you are really getting entangled now. John says anyone who does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

What would make anyone think this means they are unsaved? I showed 4 verses where Paul said "I would not have you IGNORANT brothers…". Then he taught them doctrine. Yes, believers can be ignorant, and quite ignorant at that.

Those believers who do not keep His commandments are quite ignorant of the biblical teaching about God's divine discipline.

Since you choose not to keep His commandments, or should I say, can't keep His commandments, you will never have the truth in you.

I SAID that no one can keep His commandments continually or perfectly. Please read my posts before responding with such misunderstanding.

So why should I believe anything you say, if you don't have the truth in you?

Your opinion of what I have is quite in error. The truth is found in Scripture; eternal life is given to those who believe in Christ. That we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible says plenty about casting away your iniquities, fleeing sin, and turning from your sin.

And nothing about if one does these things they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith.

Man can keep His commandments, because they are not burdensome.

Only with the help of the Holy Spirit. And only believers have the Holy Spirit in them. And there are no verses about getting saved by keeping His commandments.

If His commandments says to not commit adultery, I find strength from Him, and choose not to commit this sin. Any person who is in Christ has His strength available to them.

I agree with this. But your view that one receives eternal life by 'doing good" is wrong-headed. Paul proved that in Rom 3 and 4.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man can keep His commandments, because they are not burdensome.

If that were true, why did Paul write this:
"Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Gal 3:19

The Law was given because of sin. Until Christ (the Seed) came.

Then Paul wrote this:
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

This verse directly refutes your view. The law cannot impart life.

22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Another verse that refutes your views. The promise of salvation is "by faith" and "given to those who believe".

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Another verse that refutes your vies. The Law is a tutor to lead us to Christ, "so that we may be justified by faith", NOT BY WORKS.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which of the Ten Commandments can man not keep? I am puzzled by your statement.

The point is that no one can keep the Law all the time. Continually. The Bible has made that perfectly clear. Rom 3:15-26

Can you not do ALL things through Christ which strengthens you?

This is irrelevant to the discussion of how to get saved. This verse which you failed to cite is for those who believe and have the Holy Spirit in them. It is not about how one gets saved, as it appears that you think.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Newborn babies don't run marathons. What you seem to be demanding of new Christians is far more than they are capable of. No allowance is being made for that, as far as i can see. You seem to be demanding a high level of performance right out of the gate, and telling people that if they don't meet that high level of performance immediately, they are lost and their salvation is worthless. That is hardly Good News. As I said before, babies don't run marathons.

.

I agree 100 %. Paul even says that new babes in Christ need milk before they move on to meat.

We should be helping these babe Christians in their faith and helping them maintain their relationship with God and learning to listen to the Holy Spirit.

To put on them a bunch of 'you should...' And 'if you are a Christian ...' Is beyond wrong. They need to build upon their faith and walk with Jesus. Not concentrate on full obedience.

New babes in Christ are not mature enough for all that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

EmSw said: ↑
Are you saying I am dangerous to Calvinism? I take that as a compliment Marvin. Perhaps you have never met anyone like me. But anyway, I am blessed by what you say about me.

You are dangerous to young Christians who do not fully grasp the nature of the relationship between man and God. Your strongly held beliefs about man's ability to earn salvation will cause more trouble than good.

Because they are heretical.

The good news of Christ taught in the Gospels is He did everything right and suffered so that we don't have to. Any teaching opposed to this is dangerous.

Because it is blasphemy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The point is that no one can keep the Law all the time. Continually. The Bible has made that perfectly clear. Rom 3:15-26
.

Very true. The Israelites could not perfectly keep the law, that's why they made blood offering through the high priests.

So why would @EmSw think that we can keep all the law now?

Jesus fulfilled the law and left us with the two most important commandments which are love God and love your neighbor.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Really Marvin??? How long have you been studying the Bible? And you don't know what 'keep the commandments' means?

Everyone knows what the words "keep the commandments" mean.

But I want to know which commandments disqualify one from keeping the eternal life that has been given to us if we break them.

I want to know exactly at what point I (and the Apostle Paul for that matter) are in jeopardy of having God take back His irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Give us a few particulars. Don't just throw the charge out there and try to make everyone paranoid about their walk with the Lord not being quite up to your standards.

Get particular here.

A few here seem to be convinced already that perhaps they will come into condemnation again in spite of the promise of Jesus that they won't.

But most of us aren't buying it. If you want to convince anyone, you'll have to get more specific.

Let us know exactly what the parameters are for being saved and seated with Christ in Heaven and ruling in the Kingdom of God with Him according to the gospel you preach.

How often can a person become a child of God by adoption and sealing by the Holy Spirit - and lose that status again - and gain that status again - and be lost to our Father again?

We'd like to praise the Lord for His indescribable gift. But we need to know what that gift is exactly and how we can keep it - and how we can regain it if we loose it - and how we can loose it again if we aren't careful.

Do tell us please. What is the gospel according to EmSw?

Since you've figured out exactly what the good news is that we should celebrate - share it in detail with the rest of us so we can celebrate with you.

Surely it isn't too much to ask for you to share the good news with us mere theologians.

P.S.

That regeneration discussion caused a lot of misunderstanding here on this thread. But some of these other issues that come up with your gospel are even harder to understand for us.

For instance - we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise.

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

At what point is the pledge of the Holy Spirit broken?

What does it take to get Him to seal us again with a view to redemption?

Is His promise any better the second time around than it was the first time?

Perhaps it is the 3rd, 4th, or 5th sealing promise that is the really serious one.

Or perhaps these are just practice dry runs for the Spirit of God. Perhaps His "real" serious sealing doesn't take place until some kind of investigative judgment after death as with the Adventists.

Regeneration and being born again were tough for us to figure out. But we need a little help with this one. Favor us with your deep theological insights.

Thanks!

 

[Marvin Knox]

When one asks me for verses that support my views, I ALWAYS provide them.

Me too.

But only so many times.

I don't want to disobey the Lord who told me to be careful about before whom I cast my pearls.

You are rather notorious here for being one who is not very trustworthy to handle the exact words said by others carefully.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Are you saying I am dangerous to Calvinism? I take that as a compliment Marvin. Perhaps you have never met anyone like me. But anyway, I am blessed by what you say about me.

I have met many like you over the years.

The following is meant as anything but a compliment - I assure you.

Perhaps you are dangerous to Calvinism because you misrepresent it's teaching so flagrantly again and again even after you have been corrected and taught what those teachings really are.

You are also dangerous to young Christians who are not yet well grounded in the Word of God and are vulnerable to your deceptions.

You are exactly the kind of person we are told to reprove and rebuke. That is why I have done so repeatedly with you in particular.

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

 

[FreeGrace2]

Very true. The Israelites could not perfectly keep the law, that's why they made blood offering through the high priests.

So why would @EmSw think that we can keep all the law now?

He has no biblical reason to think that.

Jesus fulfilled the law and left us with the two most important commandments which are love God and love your neighbor.

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Me too.

But only so many times.

I don't want to disobey the Lord who told me to be careful about before whom I cast my pearls.

You are rather notorious here for being one who is not very trustworthy to handle the exact words said by others carefully.

Once again you've dodged a very specific and easy request.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Me too.

But only so many times.

I don't want to disobey the Lord who told me to be careful about before whom I cast my pearls.

You are rather notorious here for being one who is not very trustworthy to handle the exact words said by others carefully.

So you believe that discussing scripture with another brother or sister is casting pearls at swine?

 

[Marvin Knox]

So you believe that discussing scripture with another brother or sister is casting pearls at swine?

No - that's not what I said.

As has happened in the past here - you are picking up on a conversation that has been going on between 2 people for a long, long time here.

My words have been misquoted and or taken out of context many times with this individual.

Various fundamental doctrines have been denied when subscribing to them infringed in some way on his arguments.

I discuss scripture all the time with people.

I have disagreements with other theologians all the time - that includes Calvinists and Arminians as well as FreeGrace.

I do not often consider these discussions and disagreements as casting pearls.

In fact I have ended discussions with FreeGrace2 before and then started others later on.

Quite often I end a discussion because it becomes evident that he isn't being trustworthy with what I said or is playing games with scripture.

But this is not the case with every conversation we've had.

When I first joined here I was told by several people in private correspondence that he played these games as a technique. I was also told by one very prominent poster on the forum that he would no long post in the "soteriology" section specifically because of this individual.

You'll probably have to observe his techniques over a period of time to see what I mean exactly.

But I hope that helps.

 

[EmSw]

Everyone knows what the words "keep the commandments" mean.

But I want to know which commandments disqualify one from keeping the eternal life that has been given to us if we break them.

I would think one who says he follows Jesus, would look to Jesus' own words to find answers.

I will let Jesus answer. In Luke 10, we read the following:

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Jesus was asked what shall a man do to inherit eternal life. Jesus answered with the truth, which many will not accept. Jesus said the lawyer answered correctly; Jesus said DO THIS and you will live. I hope everyone believes these truthful words of Jesus.

This is how He defines to love the Lord your God in John 14:21 -

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Loving the Lord is just not believing, but keeping (obeying) His commandments. If you do not obey His commandments, you do not love the Lord! You can't make other things up to say you love the Lord, for the Lord Himself gave us what loving Him includes.

Not only that, Jesus truthfully said, if you love Him (by obeying the commandments), He will manifest Himself to us. I pray it isn't too difficult to understand the very words of Jesus Himself.

I want to know exactly at what point I (and the Apostle Paul for that matter) are in jeopardy of having God take back His irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Give us a few particulars. Don't just throw the charge out there and try to make everyone paranoid about their walk with the Lord not being quite up to your standards.

Get particular here.

No one will inherit eternal life until they keep (obey) His commandments. Since it is obeying His commandments by which we inherit eternal life, then not obeying His commandments would nullify our inheritance of eternal life.

A few here seem to be convinced already that perhaps they will come into condemnation again in spite of the promise of Jesus that they won't.

I would suggest pray to the Lord for strength to keep His commandments; His commandments are not burdensome.

I would also suggest that fearing the Lord is not a bad thing.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

But most of us aren't buying it. If you want to convince anyone, you'll have to get more specific.

Let us know exactly what the parameters are for being saved and seated with Christ in Heaven and ruling in the Kingdom of God with Him according to the gospel you preach.

Whether you buy it or not, the words of Jesus will stand as the truth. You personally, can believe His words, or try to go in through the back door.

How often can a person become a child of God by adoption and sealing by the Holy Spirit - and lose that status again - and gain that status again - and be lost to our Father again?

We'd like to praise the Lord for His indescribable gift. But we need to know what that gift is exactly and how we can keep it - and how we can regain it if we loose it - and how we can loose it again if we aren't careful.

Obey His commandments faithfully, and you will not have this issue.

Do tell us please. What is the gospel according to EmSw?

Since you've figured out exactly what the good news is that we should celebrate - share it in detail with the rest of us so we can celebrate with you.

Surely it isn't too much to ask for you to share the good news with us mere theologians.

Walk in the Light Marvin, obey His commandments, and your answers will be revealed to you. When you keep His commandments, then the truth will be in you.

P.S.

That regeneration discussion caused a lot of misunderstanding here on this thread. But some of these other issues that come up with your gospel are even harder to understand for us.

For instance - we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise.

If you don't believe that regeneration is born anew in the Greek, then there is nothing else to say to you. You seem to have your own definition of regeneration.

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

At what point is the pledge of the Holy Spirit broken?

I have given you the message of truth from Jesus Himself, but you seem to have a difficult time believing it. Why would you be sealed with the HS if you don't believe the very words from Jesus?

What does it take to get Him to seal us again with a view to redemption?

Is His promise any better the second time around than it was the first time?

Perhaps it is the 3rd, 4th, or 5th sealing promise that is the really serious one.

If one would but obey His words the first time they hear and understand them, your questions become a non-issue.

Or perhaps these are just practice dry runs for the Spirit of God. Perhaps His "real" serious sealing doesn't take place until some kind of investigative judgment after death as with the Adventists.

Regeneration and being born again were tough for us to figure out. But we need a little help with this one. Favor us with your deep theological insights.

Thanks!

I have given you plenty of what I believe from God, but you have only turned on me and torn me to pieces.