Logical Problems with Calvinism

nobdysfool · Dec 28, 2015

EmSw,

What, exactly, are the commands of Jesus?

They cannot be all the 613 tenets of the Law, for they were fulfilled by Jesus in His Life, Death and Resurrection, and in Him we have fulfilled them. If We walk in Him, we are counted as having fulfilled the Law, perfectly. Hence they cannot be what He, Paul, John and others are referring to.

Many,many times we have been told to obey His commandments as a means of obtaining eternal life, even though Scripture teaches that we receive eternal life by Faith, through Grace.

For the benefit of those who may not understand what is meant, please lay them out, in detail. Explain, so there is no doubt or confusion as to what is being touted as the way to be saved.

EmSw · Dec 28, 2015

nobdysfool said:
EmSw,

What, exactly, are the commands of Jesus?

They cannot be all the 613 tenets of the Law, for they were fulfilled by Jesus in His Life, Death and Resurrection, and in Him we have fulfilled them. If We walk in Him, we are counted as having fulfilled the Law, perfectly. Hence they cannot be what He, Paul, John and others are referring to.

Many,many times we have been told to obey His commandments as a means of obtaining eternal life, even though Scripture teaches that we receive eternal life by Faith, through Grace.

For the benefit of those who may not understand what is meant, please lay them out, in detail. Explain, so there is no doubt or confusion as to what is being touted as the way to be saved.

NobodysFool, I can't believe you can't read for yourself and understand what Jesus said. I never said all 613 tenets of the Law. Jesus never said obey all 613 tenets of the law. Where do you get that?

I gave Marvin what Jesus said; you can go and read it for yourself. Jesus never said we receive eternal life by Faith, through Grace. You need to listen to the Savior Himself, for He is the one who gives eternal life.

If the words of Jesus don't suffice for your doubt, then there is nothing I can say to make you believe His words.

If the words of Jesus don't provide the way to salvation, then we are all doomed.

Let me give you a hint - love the Lord you God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you love God with all your heart, then keep His commandments. John said if you say you know Him, but don't keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. I don't how much plainer it gets than that. And without truth, you will never be saved.

If you have a way to inherit eternal life other than what Jesus said, then by all means, go for it. I do wish you good luck though.

nobdysfool · Dec 28, 2015

EmSw said:
NobodysFool, I can't believe you can't read for yourself and understand what Jesus said. I never said all 613 tenets of the Law. Jesus never said obey all 613 tenets of the law. Where do you get that?

I gave Marvin what Jesus said; you can go and read it for yourself. Jesus never said we receive eternal life by Faith, through Grace. You need to listen to the Savior Himself, for He is the one who gives eternal life.

If the words of Jesus don't suffice for your doubt, then there is nothing I can say to make you believe His words.

If the words of Jesus don't provide the way to salvation, then we are all doomed.

Let me give you a hint - love the Lord you God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you love God with all your heart, then keep His commandments. John said if you say you know Him, but don't keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. I don't how much plainer it gets than that. And without truth, you will never be saved.

Interesting how you try to turn this around to make it appear that i am the stupid one, and that I am a doubter. Is so doing you are telling lies about me. I won't stand for it. In so doing you are avoiding exactly what i asked you to do, which was to be specific and forthright. Telling people to "read the words of Jesus" doesn't answer the request I made of you.

I never claimed that you said we must obey all 613 tenets of the Law. I'm trying to make sure that no one is confused as to what you mean.

Can you you lay out, in specific detail, what you claim we must do?

You're dancing around being specific.

You are avoiding answering my specific request.

Let the record show that when pressed EmSw cannot answer my specific request to tell us what "His Commands" are. If you're going to insist that obeying His Commands is how we get saved and keep ourselves saved, then surely you can list what those commands are. Can you?

If you can't, or won't, then you're blowing smoke.

EmSw · Dec 28, 2015

nobdysfool said:
Interesting how you try to turn this around to make it appear that i am the stupid one, and that I am a doubter. Is so doing you are telling lies about me. I won't stand for it. In so doing you are avoiding exactly what i asked you to do, which was to be specific and forthright. Telling people to "read the words of Jesus" doesn't answer the request I made of you.

I never claimed that you said we must obey all 613 tenets of the Law. I'm trying to make sure that no one is confused as to what you mean.

Can you you lay out, in specific detail, what you claim we must do?

You're dancing around being specific.

You are avoiding answering my specific request.

Let the record show that when pressed EmSw cannot answer my specific request to tell us what "His Commands" are. If you're going to insist that obeying His Commands is how we get saved and keep ourselves saved, then surely you can list what those commands are. Can you?

If you can't, or won't, then you're blowing smoke.

If you don't know what commandments to obey, then how do you know what 1 John 2:3 means?

1 John 2:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

If you claim to know Him, then surely you know which commandments John means, don't you?

Marvin Knox · Dec 28, 2015

EmSw said:
If you don't know what commandments to obey, then how do you know what 1 John 2:3 means?

1 John 2:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

If you claim to know Him, then surely you know which commandments John means, don't you?

I'm sure that many here are a little mixed up as to which commandments exactly Jesus told us to keep and which ones you say we must not break or we will lose our eternal life.

Maybe we are the "dense" ones after all. It is possible I suppose.

But since you love your brothers and sisters and want them to get to Heaven - surely you'll be a little more specific for us.

After all - you love your slow witted brothers and sisters don't you? You do believe that our lives depend on knowing exactly how to get to Heaven don't you?

You have the answer, you say.

Please don't beat around the bush any longer. Our lives and the lives of perhaps a hundred would-be children of God who are listening in depend on your being forthright with us.

Thanks for doing so. I know you will because to not love us enough to explain it to us in detail means you are not loving us and you will perhaps lose your salvation if you don't level with us in great detail.

For all of our sakes please do what the Lord told you to do.

Tell us exactly how we can get saved and stay saved so we can escape Hell and get to Heaven in the end.

Hopefully I can confess my sin to the Lord if I break one of those mortal sins you talk about.

But what if a car hits me before I repent of one of the big ones? Am I lost then?

Please help us out here. We want to know what the good news is exactly according to you.

I've had quite a bit of trouble with certain sins over the last 50 years or so. So some of that stuff that Jesus told us before He laid down His life at Calvary seems a little like bad news to me.

Please - tell me the good news according to EmSw.

nobdysfool · Dec 29, 2015

EmSw said:
If you don't know what commandments to obey, then how do you know what 1 John 2:3 means?

1 John 2:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

If you claim to know Him, then surely you know which commandments John means, don't you?

I do, but I'm not asking on behalf of myself, I am asking on behalf of the 8,900+ people who have viewed this thread. Don't they have a right to know?

Stop trying to spin your way out of answering a direct request for a detailed answer. Stop trying to make it appear that I am somehow an unbeliever for asking you to provide the detail and specificity to back up your words.

EmSw · Dec 29, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I'm sure that many here are a little mixed up as to which commandments exactly Jesus told us to keep and which ones you say we must not break or we will lose our eternal life.

I'm hoping you aren't being facetious here. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and answer your questions.

The two great commandments are of highest priority for mankind.

Matthew 22
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus' explanation in these two commandments reveal His plan for mankind in regards to man's relationship to God and to each other. The first four commandments show man's relationship to God, while the last six show man's relationship to each other. Again, all the commandments are predicated upon love.

Jesus also said all the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments, that is, they are summed up in these two. So, all 613 tenets of the law hang on these two.

As far as life is concerned with these two, we read the following:

Luke 10
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

When asked what a man should do to inherit eternal life, Jesus asked what was written in the law. The lawyer answered, love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself (the two great commandments). Jesus said he answered correctly, so there is no need to guess how to inherit eternal life. Then Jesus answers, 'do this and you will live'.

So we see it is love by which man is saved and inherits eternal life. Even Paul acknowledges the supremacy of love.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Whatever faith and hope is able to do, love is greater. Paul also said this about faith and love:

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Yes, it takes faith to be saved, but faith doesn't work without love. Man is nothing with faith alone; he must have love also.

I hope this helps. I will not be answering all your questions, as I believe I have answered them here.

EmSw · Dec 29, 2015

nobdysfool said:
I do, but I'm not asking on behalf of myself, I am asking on behalf of the 8,900+ people who have viewed this thread. Don't they have a right to know?

Stop trying to spin your way out of answering a direct request for a detailed answer. Stop trying to make it appear that I am somehow an unbeliever for asking you to provide the detail and specificity to back up your words.

See my post to Marvin #1767

GillDouglas · Dec 29, 2015

EmSw said:
See my post to Marvin #1767

@EmSw,

You provide some great insight in post #1767 to Marvin. The question remains though; How do we perfectly love God, always?

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

EmSw said:
See my post to Marvin #1767

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

So why then do all people not love God? If God first loved them?
A simple reading shows a possibility of error for those not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.
John is talking to believers 'we', who are elect since God loved 'us' with a great love first as Ephesians 2 teaches us.

We do not love God unless God makes us alive first in the Spirit.
Then we love God, and that also includes keeping His words.
Therefore our being able to love God depends on Him loving us first and not the other way round.
Jesus says, If any man loves Me, we will come and make our home in him

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Wonderful to have both God and Christ living inside us whom He loves.
But the reason such a one does love Christ, is that they are born of God beforehand. And such a one, Christ says they will keep His word.

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

EmSw · Dec 29, 2015

GillDouglas said:
@EmSw,

You provide some great insight in post #1767 to Marvin. The question remains though; How do we perfectly love God, always?

Thank you Gill, but I am nothing. Without the Lord's mercy, forgiveness, kindness, and love, I would be a hopeless, lost soul, forever drowning in my sin.

We can't love perfectly, as there is only One Perfect Love. We will always have the temptation to love ourselves and the world. Only God can help us overcome the evil love we have within ourselves. He has given us the Light by which we can follow down the path of righteousness. The Light He provides is the truth in His Word. Will everyone walk in the Light always? No, not as long as we succumb to the temptation of loving ourselves.

But we do have the assurance He is with us always, providing the strength and help to overcome loving ourselves. He has provisions through forgiveness to help us when we do give in and love ourselves. The problems man has with loving himself is continuing in that evil love.

How do we know if we are loving ourselves or loving God and our neighbor? I know it can be very easy to be deceived in thinking we are loving God and our neighbor. However, Jesus told us how to know whether our deeds of love are from Him.

John 3
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

If we come to the Light, our deeds will be exposed, whether they are evil or good. Those who love the Truth will come to the Light to clearly see that their deeds have been done in God.

I hope I have answered satisfactorily Gill.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
How do you explain the verse that says, 'love covers a multitude of sins'?

So how does love cover a multitude of sins in 1 Peter 4:8?

#1. It's about making things right by our loving actions (Because of the changed life we have in Christ).
(a) Making Things Right in our Past (of any wrongs we might have made with anyone).
(b) Making Things Right in our Present (of anything more we can do to be more Christ like today).
(c) Making Things in the Future even better by Asking God to help you to be more like Christ and in Studying His good ways).

In other words, doing good to correct your broken past will cover your old sins that were caused by your old life and will prevent any mistakes in taking place in the present day moment of your life and in the future. Love has changed the believer and has covered over their sin of their past, and any potential sins that could arise in the present moment or the future before God and man. For love covers sin.

#2. Mercy. Love is mercy. It is forgiving the actions of transgressions done against another. To have mercy on someone means to forgive them if they are sorry for their wrong doing and they are seeking to never do that wrong thing again. Mercy is not allowing a person to remain in their sins. That would be giving a person a license to sin with no real change in their life. Matthew 6:14-15 says we are to forgive others as Christ has forgiven us. But if we do not forgive others, then God Father in Heaven will not forgive us.

Anyways, when we have mercy or forgiveness on others, it is a form of love that covers a multitude of their sins. God did this for us, just as we are to do this for others. For we are commanded to forgive as God has forgiven us from our past transgressions that we repented of.

#3. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
This is the Substitiionary Atonement. For He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us. God so loved the world that He gave His Son as a sacrifice for our sins. Love covers a multitude of sins. This is the plan of salvation. God had to die in our place and be risen from the grave so as to offer man the free gift of salvation by His sacrifice and resurrection. But salvation is not just in receiving a gift, though. One also has to continue to take care of gifts that they receive. For obviously if someone bought you a car as a free gift, that does not mean you can run red lights and ignore general maintence on your free car. Gifts many times come with some kind of responsiblity on your part to keep them.

#4. Love covers a multitude of sins by our focus on leading others to Christ.
James 5:19-20 talks about how a faithful Christian can lead a believer who had backslidden into a life of sin back to the faith by getting them to repent of their sins to the saving of their soul. 1 John 5:16-18 talks about how we are to pray for others in the faith who are struggling with sin but they are confessing and forsaking that sin with God's help and the help of the church. They are seeking to do right. We are also to even pray for believers who have backslidden into a lifestyle of sin again, too (with the hope that they will be saved again). But we preach the gospel to all people. We preach the goodness of Christ to all. For His love can change a person's life and cover a multitude of sin.

Another problem I see with your theory

It's not my theory. It is what the Bible says. The Scriptures say, be no deceived, whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

is that one can only serve one master.

One's masters is determined by what type of fruit they are bringing forth. Jesus said we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit (i.e. deeds). This makes sense because the Scriptures say elsewhere, he that does righteousness is righteous. He that sins is of the devil.

We all start out not serving God, but when we are born again we are made a new creature in Christ and serve the Lord.

So with this do you think one goes back and forth between serving God and satan? What I have an issue with is God says we cannot serve two masters, so I am not understanding how you can say we are in a yo-yo type position in Christ. That does not make sense to me. Jesus says that no one can remove us from His right hand because the Father who is over all has given us to Him.

I agree. You cannot serve two masters. But people today try to do that, though. They think they can serve God because they have a belief on Jesus and yet at the same time they think they can also serve sin, too (By not giving it up). However, Paul tells us in Romans 6 that believers are slaves to righteousness. Meaning the believer is a slave to doing that which is righteous and good.

...

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
So how does love cover a multitude of sins in 1 Peter 4:8?

#1. It's about making things right by our loving actions (Because of the changed life we have in Christ).
(a) Making Things Right in our Past (of any wrongs we might have made with anyone).
(b) Making Things Right in our Present (of anything more we can do to be more Christ like today).
(c) Making Things in the Future even better by Asking God to help you to be more like Christ and in Studying His good ways).

In other words, doing good to correct your broken past will cover your old sins that were caused by your old life and will prevent any mistakes in taking place in the present day moment of your life and in the future. Love has changed the believer and has covered over their sin of their past, and any potential sins that could arise in the present moment or the future before God and man. For love covers sin.

#2. Mercy. Love is mercy. It is forgiving the actions of transgressions done against another. To have mercy on someone means to forgive them if they are sorry for their wrong doing and they are seeking to never do that wrong thing again. Mercy is not allowing a person to remain in their sins. That would be giving a person a license to sin with no real change in their life. Matthew 6:14-15 says we are to forgive others as Christ has forgiven us. But if we do not forgive others, then God Father in Heaven will not forgive us.

Anyways, when we have mercy or forgiveness on others, it is a form of love that covers a multitude of their sins. God did this for us, just as we are to do this for others. For we are commanded to forgive as God has forgiven us from our past transgressions that we repented of.

#3. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
This is the Substitiionary Atonement. For He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us. God so loved the world that He gave His Son as a sacrifice for our sins. Love covers a multitude of sins. This is the plan of salvation. God had to die in our place and be risen from the grave so as to offer man the free gift of salvation by His sacrifice and resurrection. But salvation is not just in receiving a gift, though. One also has to continue to take care of gifts that they receive. For obviously if someone bought you a car as a free gift, that does not mean you can run red lights and ignore general maintence on your free car. Gifts many times come with some kind of responsiblity on your part to keep them.

#4. Love covers a multitude of sins by our focus on leading others to Christ.
James 5:19-20 talks about how a faithful Christian can lead a believer who had backslidden into a life of sin back to the faith by getting them to repent of their sins to the saving of their soul. 1 John 5:16-18 talks about how we are to pray for others in the faith who are struggling with sin but they are confessing and forsaking that sin with God's help and the help of the church. They are seeking to do right. We are also to even pray for bellievers who have backslidden into a lifestyle of sin again, too (with the hope that they will be saved again). But we preach the gospel to all people. We preach the goodness of Christ to all. For His love can change a person's life and cover a multitude of sin.

It's not my theory. It is what the Bible says. The Scriptures say, be no deceived, whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

One's masters is determined by what type of fruit they are breaking forth. Jesus said we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit (i.e. deeds). This makes sense because the Scriptures say elsewhere, he that does righteousness is righteous. He that sins is of the devil.

I agree. You cannot serve two masters. But people today try to do that, though. They think they can serve God because they have a belief on Jesus and yet at the same time they think they can also serve sin, too (By not giving it up). However, Paul tells us in Romans 6 that believers are slaves to righteousness. Meaning the believer is a slave to doing that which is righteous and good.

...

"Anyways, when we have mercy or forgiveness on others, it is a form of love that covers a multitude of their sins. God did this for us, just as we are to do this for others. For we are commanded to forgive as God has forgiven us from our past transgressions that we repented of. "

Our forgiving others their sins, does not mean God forgives them their sins, since we are not God, how can that be true.
I immediately thought of this in response to those who have sinned against you, who are evil.

Romans 12
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rather than their sins being forgiven, an increased certainty of judgement is lit upon their heads, that if they do not repent and believe is against them at the judgement day

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

EmSw said:
We can't love perfectly, as there is only One Perfect Love. We will always have the temptation to love ourselves and the world. Only God can help us overcome the evil love we have within ourselves. He has given us the Light by which we can follow down the path of righteousness. The Light He provides is the truth in His Word. Will everyone walk in the Light always? No, not as long as we succumb to the temptation of loving ourselves.

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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