Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

I said this:
"Let's be complete.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
When Jesus said He would "draw all men to Himself", He sure wasn't speaking literally."

Are you suggesting that I am making this up?

I asked how you know He didn't mean it literally. Did He mean it figuratively?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"But I've just shown that the word has a literal and a metaphorical meaning and usage.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel"

Let's look at it another way. If "draw" means only that it is out there offering a mild attraction, it's not really "much of a draw."

I never said anything about helkuo being "a mild attraction". I gave Strong's definition of it.

But that's what we are being asked to believe that the verse means.

Not by me.

If the draw doesn't get you there, what kind of force is that, anyway?

Do you really believe that an attraction can only be "mild"? Where does that come from? But again, your very question proves what I had said about Calvinists; they seem to only think in term of FORCE.

Again though, that's what we've been asked to believe...that Christ has called, but you, the individual, are just as likely to brush it off as be moved by it.

I'd say dying for a person IS strong motive for that person to love the one who died for them. That's not a "mild attraction" kind of thing.

But the problem is that one must believe that Christ did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Even if that was true, it doesn't change anything.

I wasn't trying to change anything. I was only correcting an error.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"No, He said He came to fulfill the Law. That will occur in the Millennium."

For purposes of this discussion, could we please keep such unorthodox theories out of it?

So the Millennium is an "unorthodox theory" to you???

 

[Hammster]

I wasn't trying to change anything. I was only correcting an error.

If you say so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Let's be complete.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
When Jesus said He would "draw all men to Himself", He sure wasn't speaking literally."

Are you suggesting that I am making this up?

I asked how you know He didn't mean it literally. Did He mean it figuratively?

Since He didn't DRAG anyone to Himself, it should be quite obvious that He was speaking metaphorically.

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
"Let's be complete.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
When Jesus said He would "draw all men to Himself", He sure wasn't speaking literally."

Are you suggesting that I am making this up?

Since He didn't DRAG anyone to Himself, it should be quite obvious that He was speaking metaphorically.

Metaphorically can still be literally. In other words, we know God draws. And we know what happens to those He draws. Nobody was arguing that Jesus physically dragged anyone.

 

[Albion]

I never said anything about helkuo being "a mild attraction".

That was my characterization of what I've been reading here, yes.

o you really believe that an attraction can only be "mild"?

Let's just cut to the chase and have you tell us your own theory about the effect of Christ drawing all men to him. Do they wind up being disciples as a result or not?

 

[Hammster]

That was my characterization of what I've been reading here, yes.


Let's just cut to the chase and have you tell us your own theory about the effect of Christ drawing all men to him. Do they wind up being disciples as a result or not?

Only metaphorically. 'Cause disciple has many meanings.

 

[Albion]

Only metaphorically. 'Cause disciple has many meanings.

Make that "have saving Faith," then. The point is that if Christ draws through the Bible...and we all agree that the Bible is revealing...it cannot mean that it necessarily draws them so effectively that every man receives the Faith. If it did, there wouldn't be any non-Christians and everyone would be saved. If that isn't what happens, the verse about drawing all men cannot be a proof text for Free Will and against Election.

 

[Hammster]

Make that "have saving Faith," then. The point is that if Christ draws through the Bible...and we all agree that the Bible is revealing...it cannot mean that it necessarily draws them so effectively that every man receives the Faith. If it did, there wouldn't be any non-Christians and everyone would be saved. If that isn't what happens, the verse about drawing all men cannot be a proof text for Free Will and against Election.

We also know that Jesus is clear on what happens to those God draws. "And I will raise him on the last day."

 

[St_Worm2]

Just some thoughts:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and of all that He has given Me I lose nothing .. for this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:37-40)

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him ........" John 6:44
​

 

[St_Worm2]

Whoops, sorry Hammster, I see you already had the same thought

 

[Hammster]

Whoops, sorry Hammster, I see you already had the same thought

It can't be repeated enough.

 

[St_Worm2]

 

[St_Worm2]

The passage says God seeks to gather them. This is compared to a hen wooing it's chicks to be under it's wing. Sounds like a drawing to me.

Hi Jason, a hen doesn't "woo" her chicks under her wing, she compels them if they will not come to her (just like the Father does with us .. John 6:37; John 6:44). We do not "coax" water into a cup from a well, we ἑλκύω (helkuo) draw/compel it out of the well by force (as gentle as that force may seem or appear to us, we compel it nevertheless). To "ἑλκύω" never means to "woo" or "coax" or "plead" in any Biblical or any extra-Biblical literature. It means to "draw", "drag", "tug", "compel" by force, again, no matter how gentle that force may seem to us.

But can someone refuse God's drawing?

No, clearly not, or John 6:37's "ALL that the Father gives to Me WILL come to Me...." could not be true.

 

[sdowney717]

Without God drawing a person in the way Christ says as in John 6, they will refuse God's command to repent.
If you say that is not true, then you are a pelagian heretic.

Fact is as Revelations shows, while God is manifesting His wrath on the unsaved, it says they refuse to repent. Even though they knew God was doing this to them, they refuse to repent. They continue to blaspheme God. Men will not repent unless God regenerates their hearts.

Revelation 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

Revelation 9:21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Revelation 16:11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

 

[sdowney717]

Luke 16
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Luke 16
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Yes, THEY do not hear Moses and the prophets. It is not.... God caused them to not hear Moses and the prophets.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, a hen doesn't "woo" her chicks under her wing, she compels them if they will not come to her (just like the Father does with us .. John 6:37; John 6:44). We do not "coax" water into a cup from a well, we ἑλκύω (helkuo) draw/compel it out of the well by force (as gentle as that force may seem or appear to us, we compel it nevertheless). To "ἑλκύω" never means to "woo" or "coax" or "plead" in any Biblical or any extra-Biblical literature. It means to "draw", "drag", "tug", "compel" by force, again, no matter how gentle that force may seem to us.



No, clearly not, or John 6:37's "ALL that the Father gives to Me WILL come to Me...." could not be true.

Actually hens do coax their baby chicks.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-nT180WoJXUC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=mother+hen+coaxes+it's+chicks&source=bl&ots=II9GlM3Rel&sig=EXSWHncwnrz1mYjR75_Klnh37mc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIs8LhounJAhUHwWMKHfoGAeQ4ChDoAQggMAM#v=onepage&q&f=false


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