Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

This is quite a ridiculous charge. Did I ever say that I followed any of them? So how about sticking with the issue. You've a Calvinist because you SAID you were.

I've NEVER EVER said I follow any man's teaching.

My theology generally follows free grace theology. Notice that no man is involved. And each word is found in Scripture. So "free grace" is Biblical.

Or do you think God's grace costs us something?

Did I ever say I was a Calvinist because I follow Calvin?

Nope.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's the actual definition of draw.

Let's be complete.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
When Jesus said He would "draw all men to Himself", He sure wasn't speaking literally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are ignoring the language. The world used in James for drag is the same exact word used for draw in John. Just because it doesn't fit yiyreyou're narrative doesn't mean the definition is changed.

Calvinists seem to think the Greek word for "drag" only means a forceful dragging, like what the crowd did to Paul in Philipi. Acts 16:19

But I've just shown that the word has a literal and a metaphorical meaning and usage.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

 

[Hammster]

Yeah, I'd say so.

Then there's no argument against the reformed view of predestination.

 

[Received]

Then there's no argument against the reformed view of predestination.

Only if Reformed folks have absolutely no understanding of how condemnation and anger in this passage works.

 

[Hammster]

Let's be complete.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
When Jesus said He would "draw all men to Himself", He sure wasn't speaking literally.

And you know this how?

 

[Hammster]

Only if Reformed folks have absolutely no understanding of how condemnation and anger in this passage works.

Explain, please.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's fine but you already said they were part of salvation. And you can reference Isaiah all you want but I brought up Romans which you didn't address and can't address or you will have to admit the Calvinist interpretation is the right one.

OK, either provide the post # so I can wade back through the pages, or just provide the Romans verse and what you'd like me to address.

Fair enough?

 

[Received]

Explain, please.

Is Jesus getting onto Pharisees for preventing others from getting into the Kingdom?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Drag or push!

Force or woo!

It matters not how you word it. What really matters is that you believe in irresistible grace as Jesus clearly taught.

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." John 6:37

 

[Albion]

Calvinists seem to think the Greek word for "drag" only means a forceful dragging, like what the crowd did to Paul in Philipi. Acts 16:19

But I've just shown that the word has a literal and a metaphorical meaning and usage.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Let's look at it another way. If "draw" means only that it is out there offering a mild attraction, it's not really "much of a draw." But that's what we are being asked to believe that the verse means. If the draw doesn't get you there, what kind of force is that, anyway? Again though, that's what we've been asked to believe...that Christ has called, but you, the individual, are just as likely to brush it off as be moved by it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I sid this:
"From post #698:
Hammster said:
"With the new heart, a man freely believes. He must give a new heart because with the heart of stone, he will stay in his wicked ways."

My question back to him:
"How come there are believers, with a new heart, who stay in their wicked ways? 2 Cor 12:20 is an example. So was King Saul."

Hammster, could you address this question, please?"

I didn't see anything in the text about a new heart. Can you show me the text that says Saul has a new heart or was ever given one?

I notice that Hammster hasn't responded, again.

Here's the passage on Saul's regeneration:
1 Sam 10:6 - “Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man."

If being "changed into another man" after the Spirit of the LORD has come upon him mightily doesn't refer to regeneration, then please explain what exactly Samuel meant by that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. He fulfilled the law.

No, He said He came to fulfill the Law. That will occur in the Millennium.

 

[Hammster]

Is Jesus getting onto Pharisees for preventing others from getting into the Kingdom?

He's telling them that their actions are those that will get them or the followers into the kingdom. The preceding verses are important.

 

[Hammster]

No, He said He came to fulfill the Law. That will occur in the Millennium.

Even if that was true, it doesn't change anything.

 

[Albion]

No, He said He came to fulfill the Law. That will occur in the Millennium.

For purposes of this discussion, could we please keep such unorthodox theories out of it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did I ever say I was a Calvinist because I follow Calvin?

Nope.

Your argument is invalid.

Your response is invalid. You've called yourself a Calvinist many times. One doesn't have to include the phrase "because I follow Calvin" when they say they are a Calvinist. Because it's clearly what a Calvinist does and is. Or they wouldn't use that word to define or describe themself.

To say "I am a Calvinst" sure doesn't mean that the person follows Arminius. It means they follow Calvin's teachings.

 

[Received]

He's telling them that their actions are those that will get them or the followers into the kingdom. The preceding verses are important.

The verse I'm quoting basically starts a new context. Even the verses immediately preceding don't implicate your point.

Again, this isn't hard. He's saying "woe to you." Is that a phrase of condemnation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Let's be complete.

helkuō / helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
When Jesus said He would "draw all men to Himself", He sure wasn't speaking literally."

And you know this how?

Are you suggesting that I am making this up?

 

[Hammster]

Your response is invalid. You've called yourself a Calvinist many times. One doesn't have to include the phrase "because I follow Calvin" when they say they are a Calvinist. Because it's clearly what a Calvinist does and is. Or they wouldn't use that word to define or describe themself.

To say "I am a Calvinst" sure doesn't mean that the person follows Arminius. It means they follow Calvin's teachings.

Well, you finally disproved Calvinism.

Good on ya.