Logical Problems with Calvinism

[sdowney717]

Young's literal translation also says it well. The idea being the gospel of Christ has gone out to the entire world.

11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,

12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,

In that Paul says to all men this.
2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart.

2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If one has faith, why does one need to be born again? It's obvious they can already do good apart from God.

So it took me a while to respond to this, but I wrote what happens when we are born again after we come to Christ in faith.

You can then see for yourself what the difference is.


Romans 6:1-11
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.


If you look at verse 2, it tells us that "WE" who died to sin.

So before we were born again we were dead spiritually because we were alive in sin.

When we are born again we are made alive spiritually and die to sin (just the opposite of who we were before being born again).

In verse 3 it begins to tell us how we became dead to sin.
* In Jesus Christ, we are baptized into Christ's death, which He died with no sin to CONQUER sin once-and-for-all. Done.
In verse 4 it tells us the next step, which is
* In Jesus Christ, because we have been baptized into His death, we are also buried with Christ in His death to sin.
* So just as Christ was raised from the dead in Glory by the Father, that we will also (now that we are born again in His death) walk in a new life. To live like Jesus.
In verse 5, it tells us that because we have become united with Jesus Christ through His death, we shall also be in likeness in Christ's ressurection.


So do you see what happened here.

Verse 2: We have died to sin. Past tense

Verse 3: We are baptized into Christ's death
Verse 4: We are buried with Christ in His death
Verse 4: We will be therefore, like Christ be raised in a new creation. We have been born again to walk a new life.
Verse 5: If we have been UNITED with Christ in HIS DEATH. We shall also be LIKE CHRIST in His RESSURECTION.
Verse 6: Knowing that He has crucified our unrighteous self WITH Him, our sins are done away with (which is justification).
Verse 6: SO that we are NO LONGER in bondage to sin (we have been justified, freed from all sin through Christ who CONQUERED sin and it's consequences (spiritual death))
Verse 7: We have died to sin, in Christ so we are justified (free from sin's penalty which WAS spiritual death)
Verse 8: If we have died WITH Christ, we know we also will be made alive (through salvation, the Word written on our hearts & receiving the Holy Spirit) through Him.
Verse 9: We know that Christ, because he already died once, cannot die again.
Verse 9: In His ressurecting after death, by the Father, He conquered sin, because He removed the penalty for sin which is spiritual death.
Verse 10: Jesus is once again alive and the life that He lives is as God and to the Father.
Verse 11: We also need to consider ourselves dead to sin, because we died with Christ, and we also cannot die as a penalty of sin again.

So we are to live in this newness of Christ. A new creation. Our old man (former sinful, unforgiven self) was crucified with Christ and now our new man we live to righteousness.

Does that make sense?

I hope so, it took me a long time to write out.

 

[sdowney717]

So it took me a while to respond to this, but I wrote what happens when we are born again after we come to Christ in faith.

You can then see for yourself what the difference is.


Romans 6:1-11
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.


If you look at verse 2, it tells us that "WE" who died to sin.

So before we were born again we were dead spiritually because we were alive in sin.

When we are born again we are made alive spiritually and die to sin (just the opposite of who we were before being born again).

In verse 3 it begins to tell us how we became dead to sin.
* In Jesus Christ, we are baptized into Christ's death, which He died with no sin to CONQUER sin once-and-for-all. Done.
In verse 4 it tells us the next step, which is
* In Jesus Christ, because we have been baptized into His death, we are also buried with Christ in His death to sin.
* So just as Christ was raised from the dead in Glory by the Father, that we will also (now that we are born again in His death) walk in a new life. To live like Jesus.
In verse 5, it tells us that because we have become united with Jesus Christ through His death, we shall also be in likeness in Christ's ressurection.


So do you see what happened here.

Verse 2: We have died to sin. Past tense

Verse 3: We are baptized into Christ's death
Verse 4: We are buried with Christ in His death
Verse 4: We will be therefore, like Christ be raised in a new creation. We have been born again to walk a new life.
Verse 5: If we have been UNITED with Christ in HIS DEATH. We shall also be LIKE CHRIST in His RESSURECTION.
Verse 6: Knowing that He has crucified our unrighteous self WITH Him, our sins are done away with (which is justification).
Verse 6: SO that we are NO LONGER in bondage to sin (we have been justified, freed from all sin through Christ who CONQUERED sin and it's consequences (spiritual death))
Verse 7: We have died to sin, in Christ so we are justified (free from sin's penalty which WAS spiritual death)
Verse 8: If we have died WITH Christ, we know we also will be made alive (through salvation, the Word written on our hearts & receiving the Holy Spirit) through Him.
Verse 9: We know that Christ, because he already died once, cannot die again.
Verse 9: In His ressurecting after death, by the Father, He conquered sin, because He removed the penalty for sin which is spiritual death.
Verse 10: Jesus is once again alive and the life that He lives is as God and to the Father.
Verse 11: We also need to consider ourselves dead to sin, because we died with Christ, and we also cannot die as a penalty of sin again.

So we are to live in this newness of Christ. A new creation. Our old man (former sinful, unforgiven self) was crucified with Christ and now our new man we live to righteousness.

Does that make sense?

I hope so, it took me a long time to write out.

You got that backwards.
Before you're born again, you have no saving faith.
Romans 6 is speaking to believers who are saved, not about unbelievers.

 

[sdowney717]

The faith which comes through and by Jesus Christ to you is a gift from God and is part of the golden chain of redemption spoken of in Romans 8:30.
Do all men have this faith, no they do not.

Acts 3:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 And on the basis of faith the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know;
and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Acts 3:16 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
16 And His name, through and by faith in His name, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the faith which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

 

[sdowney717]

God brings salvation to every individual who believes. That's true, but I don't think that fact has any bearing on the meaning of v11's "all men" (which I believe refers to all nations, not Israel only). If v11 means all men as individuals, then all men would be saved, at least according to v11 in context.

Question, why are we laboring this point since both of us believe the atonement is limited to those who believe? That is what you believe, yes?

Thanks!

--David

Honestly seems lots on this forum believe the atonement is for the entire world, believing or unbelieving. I have argued like you that the blood atonement is only for believers applied by faith Romans 3 speaks of that and of course that certainly riled up some folk.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You got that backwards.
Before you're born again, you have no saving faith.
Romans 6 is speaking to believers who are saved, not about unbelievers.

That makes sense.

When it tells them in Romans 6, verse 2 that 'we are dead to sin' that is talking about non-believers. Would you get serious?

Then in Romans 6, verse 5 that 'we are united with Christ in His death' that is talking about non-believers. Would you get serious?

Go through those 12 verses, NO WAY that is about unbelievers. Get a grip on your understanding of scripture. It's very sad how much you write about what you do not understand.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The faith which comes through and by Jesus Christ to you is a gift from God and is part of the golden chain of redemption spoken of in Romans 8:30.
Do all men have this faith, no they do not.

Acts 3:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 And on the basis of faith the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know;
and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Acts 3:16 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
16 And His name, through and by faith in His name, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the faith which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

I love the huge font. Classy

 

[klutedavid]

Hello all.

There is an interesting verse in the New Testament, that may raise an issue
for a Calvinist.

Matthew 13 (NASB)
20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man
who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has
no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or
persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

The word is received by this fellow, the word cannot be acknowledged
by anyone, lest they have been chosen by God to believe.

The duration of this belief in Jesus Christ is until persecution arises.

Then the most important point in the passage above, 'immediately he falls away'.

In this case, OSAS is not applicable, this fellow was definitely a Christian
for some length of time and then 'falls away'.

 

[Hammster]

So it took me a while to respond to this, but I wrote what happens when we are born again after we come to Christ in faith.

You can then see for yourself what the difference is.


Romans 6:1-11
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.


If you look at verse 2, it tells us that "WE" who died to sin.

So before we were born again we were dead spiritually because we were alive in sin.

When we are born again we are made alive spiritually and die to sin (just the opposite of who we were before being born again).

In verse 3 it begins to tell us how we became dead to sin.
* In Jesus Christ, we are baptized into Christ's death, which He died with no sin to CONQUER sin once-and-for-all. Done.
In verse 4 it tells us the next step, which is
* In Jesus Christ, because we have been baptized into His death, we are also buried with Christ in His death to sin.
* So just as Christ was raised from the dead in Glory by the Father, that we will also (now that we are born again in His death) walk in a new life. To live like Jesus.
In verse 5, it tells us that because we have become united with Jesus Christ through His death, we shall also be in likeness in Christ's ressurection.


So do you see what happened here.

Verse 2: We have died to sin. Past tense

Verse 3: We are baptized into Christ's death
Verse 4: We are buried with Christ in His death
Verse 4: We will be therefore, like Christ be raised in a new creation. We have been born again to walk a new life.
Verse 5: If we have been UNITED with Christ in HIS DEATH. We shall also be LIKE CHRIST in His RESSURECTION.
Verse 6: Knowing that He has crucified our unrighteous self WITH Him, our sins are done away with (which is justification).
Verse 6: SO that we are NO LONGER in bondage to sin (we have been justified, freed from all sin through Christ who CONQUERED sin and it's consequences (spiritual death))
Verse 7: We have died to sin, in Christ so we are justified (free from sin's penalty which WAS spiritual death)
Verse 8: If we have died WITH Christ, we know we also will be made alive (through salvation, the Word written on our hearts & receiving the Holy Spirit) through Him.
Verse 9: We know that Christ, because he already died once, cannot die again.
Verse 9: In His ressurecting after death, by the Father, He conquered sin, because He removed the penalty for sin which is spiritual death.
Verse 10: Jesus is once again alive and the life that He lives is as God and to the Father.
Verse 11: We also need to consider ourselves dead to sin, because we died with Christ, and we also cannot die as a penalty of sin again.

So we are to live in this newness of Christ. A new creation. Our old man (former sinful, unforgiven self) was crucified with Christ and now our new man we live to righteousness.

Does that make sense?

I hope so, it took me a long time to write out.

That did not address my question. And Romans 6 is written to those already saved.

 

[Hammster]

Hello all.

There is an interesting verse in the New Testament, that may raise an issue
for a Calvinist.

Matthew 13 (NASB)
20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man
who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has
no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or
persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

The word is received by this fellow, the word cannot be acknowledged
by anyone, lest they have been chosen by God to believe.

The duration of this belief in Jesus Christ is until persecution arises.

Then the most important point in the passage above, 'immediately he falls away'.

In this case, OSAS is not applicable, this fellow was definitely a Christian
for some length of time and then 'falls away'.

No he wasn't. There was no fruit. That's why the fourth soil is the picture of a true believer. There is fruit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That did not address my question. And Romans 6 is written to those already saved.

The audience is already saved who the letter was written to, but it explains spiritually what happens when we are saved. There is no getting around that. It is explaining verse 1 and verse 2, why we are dead to sin and alive in Christ. Verses 3-12 explain the process.

The Bible was written to explain things to all of mankind. Not just the reader of the letter to the Romans.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What comes first...birth or faith?

Faith.
Faith is not an after affect of salvation. We get faith through hearing the Word of God, through hearing the Word of God. The Gospel which leads to our salvation, in Jesus Christ WHEN WE COME TO HIM, by faith.

We are all given some faith, but not saving faith. When we are able to understand the gospel and the truth in the Word of God, we get faith, by the hearing of that Word.

Romans 10:16-18
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.

Eph. 1:13
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Rom. 3:22
"even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:26
"for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3
"For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 5:1
"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Rom. 10:9-10
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Gal. 2:16
"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 3:8
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14
"in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22
"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."


I have more if you like.

 

[Hammster]

The audience is already saved who the letter was written to, but it explains spiritually what happens when we are saved. There is no getting around that. It is explaining verse 1 and verse 2, why we are dead to sin and alive in Christ. Verses 3-12 explain the process.

The Bible was written to explain things to all of mankind. Not just the reader of the letter to the Romans.

So when one chooses to believe, is that choice made in the Spirit or in the flesh?

 

[Hammster]

Faith.
Faith is not an after affect of salvation. We get faith through hearing the Word of God, through hearing the Word of God. The Gospel which leads to our salvation, in Jesus Christ WHEN WE COME TO HIM, by faith.

We are all given some faith, but not saving faith. When we are able to understand the gospel and the truth in the Word of God, we get faith, by the hearing of that Word.

Romans 10:16

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.

So when you believe, are you in the flesh or the Spirit?

 

[klutedavid]

No he wasn't. There was no fruit. That's why the fourth soil is the picture of a true believer. There is fruit.

Hello Hammster.

Appreciate your reply.

Are you saying that the fellow in the rocky place was not a believer in Jesus Christ?

 

[Hammster]

Hello Hammster.

Appreciate your reply.

Are you saying that the fellow in the rocky place was not a believer
in Jesus Christ?

That's what I'm saying. Keep in mind that Christianity can be treated just like any religion. There are people who "join" because they think it will help their lives, or whatever. That hard times come and it shows that they were not actually rooted in Christ. Otherwise, they'd bear fruit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So when one chooses to believe, is that choice made in the Spirit or in the flesh?

In the flesh.

The Holy Spirit is given to a believer after they have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ. If you like you can look back at my Romans 6 post earlier today.

 

[sdowney717]

That's what I'm saying. Keep in mind that Christianity can be treated just like any religion. There are people who "join" because they think it will help their lives, or whatever. That hard times come and it shows that they were not actually rooted in Christ. Otherwise, they'd bear fruit.

Yes, since the others never bore fruit, then they can not be saved.
Jesus says
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[klutedavid]

That's what I'm saying. Keep in mind that Christianity can be treated just like any religion. There are people who "join" because they think it will help their lives, or whatever. That hard times come and it shows that they were not actually rooted in Christ. Otherwise, they'd bear fruit.

Hello Hammster.

I asked you about the following verse in an earlier post.

Are you saying that the fellow in the rocky place (Matthew 13:20-21),
was not a believer in Jesus Christ?

You then said in reply.

That's what I'm saying.

The text specifically states 'the man who hears the word and immediately
receives it with joy'. The text certainly does not say that this fellow was
an unbeliever. Further Hammster, the text also states this fellow fell away.

The failure this fellow exhibited, was in the area of endurance in the faith.

The text makes no mention of joining Christianity for some alternate
reason?

 

[sdowney717]

Hello Hammster.

I asked you about the following verse in an earlier post.

Are you saying that the fellow in the rocky place (Matthew 13:20-21),
was not a believer in Jesus Christ?

You then said in reply.

The text specifically states 'the man who hears the word and immediately
receives it with joy'. The text certainly does not say that this fellow was
an unbeliever. Further Hammster, the text also states this fellow fell away.

The failure this fellow exhibited, was in the area of endurance in the faith.

The text makes no mention of joining Christianity for some alternate
reason?

Do you not ignore the warning here In Hebrews 3?
Speaking of the one who received it with joy, yet did not endure but fell away, such a one can not be saved.
He who puts hand to plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God.
We must endure in faith all the way to the end of our life. This is known as the perseverance of the saints.
Hebrews 3
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

'Whose house we are', see God and Christ live inside of indwelling the believer, Christ says they come and make their home in us.

And again it says
Hebrews 3
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,