Logical Problems with Calvinism

[klutedavid]

Do you not ignore the warning here In Hebrews 3?
Speaking of the one who received it with joy, yet did not endure but fell away, such a one can not be saved.
He who puts hand to plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God.
We must endure in faith all the way to the end of our life. This is known as the perseverance of the saints.
Hebrews 3
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

'Whose house we are', see God and Christ live inside of indwelling the believer, Christ says they come and make their home in us.

And again it says
Hebrews 3
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Hello Downey.

You obviously agree with me, we must endure through persecution.

The fellow in the verses (Matthew 13:20-21) did not endure but fell away.

Are you also trying to say that this fellow was not a believer also?

 

[Hammster]

In the flesh.

The Holy Spirit is given to a believer after they have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ. If you like you can look back at my Romans 6 post earlier today.

Then you have a problem. Scripture says that we cannot please God in the flesh. Believing is something that pleases God. In fact, the only things we do that please God are things done for His glory. And the only way we can do that is by Christ being in us. This is why it's biblical to say that regeneration comes before faith.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Calvinists should probably try to revert back to the more catholic aspects of John Calvin... My previous research advisor once told me that it's pointless trying to argue with a New Calvinist given that if one convinces them that they are wrong it's tantamount to convincing them that they are hell-bound.

 

[Hammster]

Hello Hammster.

I asked you about the following verse in an earlier post.

Are you saying that the fellow in the rocky place (Matthew 13:20-21),
was not a believer in Jesus Christ?

You then said in reply.

The text specifically states 'the man who hears the word and immediately
receives it with joy'. The text certainly does not say that this fellow was
an unbeliever. Further Hammster, the text also states this fellow fell away.

The failure this fellow exhibited, was in the area of endurance in the faith.

The text makes no mention of joining Christianity for some alternate
reason?

Jesus is giving an illustration that anyone at the time would understand since it was an agricultural society. Everyone knew that only good soil produced good fruit. Yes, poor soil might look good at first. But it's an illusion.

So let's look at the parable.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

Obviously, the first soil is unprepared. This is the one that flatly rejects the gospel. The second one is rocky. This is the one you mention. Yes, the word is received with joy. But you'll notice that there is no root. Compare that to the fourth soil. The fourth one obviously has good roots because there is fruit aplenty.

So the first three soils were not prepared. The fourth one was.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinists should probably try to revert back to the more catholic aspects of John Calvin... My previous research advisor once told me that it's pointless trying to argue with a New Calvinist given that if one convinces them that they are wrong it's tantamount to convincing them that they are hell-bound.

If you convince me I'm wrong, why would that mean I think I'm hell-bound?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

If you convince me I'm wrong, why would that mean I think I'm hell-bound?

Look at the statement from the other side, your belief is that someone who holds contrary beliefs is hell-bound (if you are a New Calvinist). This is ample motivation to never be convinced that one is wrong...

 

[EmSw]

Jesus is giving an illustration that anyone at the time would understand since it was an agricultural society. Everyone knew that only good soil produced good fruit. Yes, poor soil might look good at first. But it's an illusion.

So let's look at the parable.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

Obviously, the first soil is unprepared. This is the one that flatly rejects the gospel. The second one is rocky. This is the one you mention. Yes, the word is received with joy. But you'll notice that there is no root. Compare that to the fourth soil. The fourth one obviously has good roots because there is fruit aplenty.

So the first three soils were not prepared. The fourth one was.

Hammster, you should have used Luke for this parable. It actually gives further details concerning the soils.

Luke 8
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Yes, we see the second soil received the word with joy, AND, we see they believed. In verse 12, Jesus said, 'should believe and be saved'. Unless Jesus was lying, we know the second soil believed and was saved. However, they believed for a while, and in time of temptation, fell away.

 

[Hammster]

Look at the statement from the other side, your belief is that someone who holds contrary beliefs is hell-bound (if you are a New Calvinist). This is ample motivation to never be convinced that one is wrong...

I don't know any Calvinist who believes that if you don't hold to Calvinism, you are hell-bound. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it is poor information.

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, you should have used Luke for this parable. It actually gives further details concerning the soils.

Luke 8
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Yes, we see the second soil received the word with joy, AND, we see they believed. In verse 12, Jesus said, 'should believe and be saved'. Unless Jesus was lying, we know the second soil believed and was saved. However, they believed for a while, and in time of temptation, fell away.

It doesn't say they were saved. It says they had no root. Belief isn't enough to save.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I don't know any Calvinist who believes that if you don't hold to Calvinism, you are hell-bound. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it is poor information.

I was commenting on the particular species of New Calvinism. Every other Reformed well, there's some good there, especially that following Karl Barth, he's really quite interesting.

 

[Hammster]

I was commenting on the particular species of New Calvinism. Every other Reformed well, there's some good there, especially that following Karl Barth, he's really quite interesting.

What is the definition of New Calvinism?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

What is the definition of New Calvinism?

It's got it's own wikipedia page...

 

[EmSw]

It doesn't say they were saved. It says they had no root. Belief isn't enough to save.

Really Hammster? Did you read the passages I just gave? Let me give it again, just so you know what Jesus said.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

I personally give total credence to what Jesus said. Now I ask, did those of the rocky soil believe?

 

[Hammster]

It's got it's own wikipedia page...

Can you point to the section where it states that adherents believe that those who reject the New Calvinism are going to hell?

 

[Hammster]

Really Hammster? Did you read the passages I just gave? Let me give it again, just so you know what Jesus said.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

I personally give total credence to what Jesus said. Now I ask, did those of the rocky soil believe?

Belief isn't enough. Even the demons believe.

 

[sdowney717]

It doesn't say they were saved. It says they had no root. Belief isn't enough to save.

Glad you also pointed out they are 'rootless'
To be rootless, means they are not connected to the true vine which is Christ, so they are not grafted in. In a way they all get sprinkled with rain from heaven and revive for a short time, like cut flowers in a vase, but having no root, they wither away and dry up showing they are truly dead. Without the root, there can be no eternal life.

 

[sdowney717]

Hello Downey.

You obviously agree with me, we must endure through persecution.

The fellow in the verses (Matthew 13:20-21) did not endure but fell away.

Are you also trying to say that this fellow was not a believer also?

He was an apostate believer that turned away, fell away from the truth.
Really since the fellow had no root, he could not do anything good, for without Christ being your foundation, without Christ you can do nothing.
Have you ever talked to people about the goodness of God and Christ and they are happy to hear the good news, but then they go back to their old ways? I know several even family members and friends of friends that have left the faith completely, some now for decades. But at their time in church, seemed to be excited and happy and worshipped God well, went on outreaches to the community, talked spiritual talk, all the outward things a person would expect to see in a born of God believer. But see, it was all on the outside, being like whitewashed tombs, on the inside they were still unclean.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your view has shown to be illogical. So don't worry about it.

As your previous history has shown, there is no real interest in dialogue with others. You've failed to show any illogic in my view in the past.

But, don't worry about it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

YES!! The Lord literally brought "salvation to all men,""ALL men"" that will choose to believe and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior!!

Interesting twist of Tisue 2:11. Yet, there is no context to support such a view. The offer of God's free gift is available to everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is this done in the flesh? Or in the Spirit?

The Bible says that man believes from his heart.