Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

1 Jn 5:1 indicates from Greek grammar that they occur at the same time.

It doesn't, but that still doesn't address what I'm asking.

 

[EmSw]

Not an answer to my question.

Hmmm, neither did you give an answer to my question.

 

[Hammster]

Hmmm, neither did you give an answer to my question.

I know. That's not how conversations work.

 

[EmSw]

I know. That's not how conversations work.

Care to give a quote? I've never heard that before.

 

[Hammster]

Care to give a quote? I've never heard that before.

I thought it was understood that you don't answer questions with questions. Those are not answers. Now that you've deflected enough, I'm moving on, unless you care to answer the question.

 

[EmSw]

I thought it was understood that you don't answer questions with questions. Those are not answers. Now that you've deflected enough, I'm moving on, unless you care to answer the question.

Wow, Jesus answered questions with questions.

I thought we were seeing a new Hammster. Stay and enjoy the company.

 

[Hammster]

You aren't Jesus.

 

[EmSw]

You aren't Jesus.

Uh oh, you are deflecting Hammster. We we talking about whether it was understood that answering questions with questions are answers, not whether I am Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

Uh oh, you are deflecting Hammster. We we talking about whether it was understood that answering questions with questions are answers, not whether I am Jesus.

I'll wait for an answer to my question.

 

[klutedavid]

Taylor, that's great, but you're using the exact quote that defeats your argument. Paul is writing in Romans 9 to the Jews who thought there was a chosen/un-chosen dichotomy that no, that was wrong, there is no un-chosen group. All people are chosen by God. In Romans 9 Paul is answering the Jewish objector who would find this preposterous, saying that surely God wouldn't abandon them now at this late date, so many hundreds of years after Moses. But Paul says, who are you that replies against God...

The very quote you're using is actually Paul's strongest (and maybe most sarcastic) argument against the very tenets of Calvinism.

Hello Bleitzel.

What you have said is entirely correct Bleitzel.

 

[St_Worm2]

Calvinism is destroyed by this one little scripture== ◄ Titus 2:11 ► For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to ""all people"".

◄ Titus 2:11 ►==For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.(NASB)==bringing salvation to ""All"" men is the same as offering salvation to all men.

Hi GISMYS, I see you are new here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF ..

While I agree that the offer of salvation, God's "outward" call to repent, must be understood as being universal, I would (at the same time) suggest that "all" men, in most passages, means all men without distinction (IOW, all peoples, nations, tribes, tongues, etc.) not all men without exception.

So it is in Titus 2:11, because unless you are a universalist who believes that the Lord literally brought "salvation to all men", v11 must be understood as referring to humanity in general (IOW, as a category), and not to every individual collectively.

Yours and His,
David

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying
the word of the Lord: and as many as had been
appointed to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48b​

 

[FreeGrace2]

It doesn't, but that still doesn't address what I'm asking.

One is free to disagree with Greek grammar.

What are you asking?

 

[sdowney717]

PTL.==When salvation has appeared to all men, salvation was offered to all men.

The same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses ""all"" who call on him, 13 for, "“Everyone"" who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”Romans 10:12-13

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to ""all people"". Titus 2:11
The Son of Man must be lifted up,15 that ""everyone"" who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the ""world"" that he gave his one and only Son, that ""whoever"" believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the ""world"", but to save the world through him. 18 ""Whoever"" believes in him is not condemned, but ""whoever"" does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
JOHN 3:15-18

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.…Romans 5:8

◄ Acts 17:27 ►
God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

If man will choose to == 12'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD. Jeremiah 29:13

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to ""all"" people.

◄ 1 Timothy 2:4 ►
God=who wants ""all"" people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

(Rom. 5:8) - "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Yes!!! God loves ""All""!!

Calvinism is destroyed by this one little scripture== ◄ Titus 2:11 ► For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to ""all people"".

◄ Titus 2:11 ►==For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.(NASB)==bringing salvation to ""All"" men is the same as offering salvation to all men.

Simply ignoring all the other verses such as Romans 8 regarding our being predestined to salvation and glorification?
How does a non calvinist read such a verse.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Hammster]

One is free to disagree with Greek grammar.

What are you asking?

Your view has shown to be illogical. So don't worry about it.

 

[sdowney717]

Hello Bleitzel.

What you have said is entirely correct Bleitzel.

I suppose all people are chosen by God for something, but not all people are chosen by God to be justified by Christ.
'For many are called but few are chosen'

some of these verses have to do with chosen for salvation and others not, can you tell the difference?
Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians 1:28
and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

2 Corinthians 8:19
and not only that, but who was also chosen by the churches to travel with us with this gift, which is administered by us to the glory of the Lord Himself and to show your ready mind,

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

1 Peter 2:4
[ The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People ] Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by Godand precious,

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

 

[ToBeLoved]

I suppose all people are chosen by God for something, but not all people are chosen by God to be justified by Christ.
'For many are called but few are chosen'

some of these verses have to do with chosen for salvation and others not, can you tell the difference?
Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians 1:28
and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

2 Corinthians 8:19
and not only that, but who was also chosen by the churches to travel with us with this gift, which is administered by us to the glory of the Lord Himself and to show your ready mind,

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

1 Peter 2:4
[ The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People ] Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by Godand precious,

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

With God being Omnipresent there is no past, present and future. Time is something we have on earth and as human beings. God does not have time as we know it. Such are things of eternity which is void of time also.

 

[ToBeLoved]

YES!! The Lord literally brought "salvation to all men,""ALL men"" that will choose to believe and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior!!

You preach brother!

 

[sdowney717]

In the NKJV, the wording gives a more accurate meaning!
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

 

[Hammster]

In the NKJV, the wording gives a more accurate meaning!
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Exactly. It actually does something.

 

[sdowney717]

ESV also reads better, not saying bringing salvation to all people, but FOR ALL PEOPLE
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,