Logical Problems with Calvinism

[tulipbee]

So what is your view of regeneration then? Is it when someone hears the Word of God and believes so that some Seed/Word has taken root on the heart so it is like conception and then born again is when the person repents, confesses Christ, gets baptized, get filled with the Spirit, and joins the Church?

God arranges circumstances. He is alive. He is the real time. He is reality. If god puts a wall in front of you in real time, you must take a left or right or up or down. You use your natural abilty to do all that but to walk through the wall. God put the wall there while you say you have free will to walk through it. You don't really believe god exist and say i got a bloody nose cause I didn't see the wall.
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Good luck in finding that free maverick molecule. Free will never sends you to heaven.

 

[True Science]

"God arranges circumstances. He is alive. He is the real time. He is reality. If god puts a wall in front of you in real time, you must take a left or right or up or down. You use your natural abilty to do all that but to walk through the wall. God put the wall there while you say you have free will to walk through it. You don't really believe god exist and say i got a bloody nose cause I didn't see the wall."

This doesn't answer my question which you quoted in this post.

You misunderstand what I mean by free will. I'm not talking about that if I want to bad enough I can flap my arms and fly all by my physical self. I'm talking about moral free will that each person is created with (generally, since there could be some massive retardation in someone born so that they can't even ever know anything, but they would not be accountable).

 

[tulipbee]

"God arranges circumstances. He is alive. He is the real time. He is reality. If god puts a wall in front of you in real time, you must take a left or right or up or down. You use your natural abilty to do all that but to walk through the wall. God put the wall there while you say you have free will to walk through it. You don't really believe god exist and say i got a bloody nose cause I didn't see the wall."

This doesn't answer my question which you quoted in this post.

You misunderstand what I mean by free will. I'm not talking about that if I want to bad enough I can flap my arms and fly all by my physical self. I'm talking about moral free will that each person is created with (generally, since there could be some massive retardation in someone born so that they can't even ever know anything, but they would not be accountable).

What is free will that don't have God envolved. He isn't waiting for the elects cause he has already done it for the elects.

True science that has too much noise is noise pollution. Outta tune.

 

[True Science]

TULIP-Bee,

Now you are just being incoherent.

 

[EmSw]

EmSw asked: ↑
To whom are you answerable for the choices you make?
Did you not have autonomous freedom to come onto this forum?
Do you not have autonomous freedom to choose which religious affiliation to adhere?
Do you not have autonomous freedom to believe as you wish?
Who is demanding you to be a Calvinist, or did you freely choose yourself?
Do you not have autonomous freedom to write about any belief you choose to hold in your heart?
Please tell us, who is threatening you if you don't do things his/her way.
Do you pray to God in every action you take to see if acceptable with Him?

Here is the definition of autonomy at Dictionay.com -

1. the right or state of self-government, esp when limited
2. a state, community, or individual possessing autonomy
3. freedom to determine one's own actions, behaviour, etc
4. (philosophy) 1. the doctrine that the individual human will is or ought to be governed only by its own principles and laws
2. the state in which one's actions are autonomous

Let's use these definitions to answer some of the questions I presented above.

1. Do you have autonomous freedom to choose which religious affiliation to adhere? We will use #3 above. Cush, Marvin, did you have the freedom to determine Calvinism, and its offshoots, as the religious belief you personally desire? Was there a government or ruling body which stated you must choose Calvinism? If you chose Calvinism on your own, your will was autonomous.

2. Who demanded or commanded you to choose Calvinism? Did God determine for you to choose Calvinism? Please describe how you knew God chose Calvinism for you in which you had absolutely no choice in the matter. Did you adhere to some other belief before Calvinism? If so, why wasn't God's determination followed? Did you freely choose these other beliefs on your own (autonomy), without regard to a God's determination?

3. If it is God's determination, ordination, and will for you life to love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, why did you say earlier you didn't? Is it because you determined autonomously not to do so?

4. Since God commanded us to cast away our iniquity to get ourselves a new heart, then surely this must be His determination for our lives. Would you agree? Or does man get to choose what is God's determination for our lives (autonomy)? Since very few on this forum think this is God's truth and way in getting a new heart, does man reject God's way and get to autonomously choose how to get a new heart?

He's probably still shaking his head about your lack of understanding concerning the so called autonomy of man.

So, my lack of understanding dictates how he behaves?

No man is ever completely autonomous.

I see we now are using the word 'completely'. Is there a partial autonomous?

Man can only choose within the nature God has given to him or subjected him to.

I am sure glad that's not the case. Every unbelieving person would CONSTANTLY and CONTINUALLY hate, murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, cheat, and drink.

Another reason that isn't true, is that God has given believers a new nature, and they surely choose not to live by it. How many believers freely choose to sin with the new nature?

Man can only make choices within the parameters of the circumstances the sovereign God has seen fit to place him in.

Did God put the paramaters of obedience in believers? Why do they still disobey God's word?

No one is sovereign over God. He is the only sovereign.

But I've heard if man rejects God's call to salvation, then he is sovereign over God. Do you believe if anyone rejects God's truth in His word, they make themselves sovereign over God?
Does man really have the power to make themselves sovereign over God?

You can make all the choices you want to. But those choices are always subject to the wishes of God and never autonomous.

Marvin, is it God's wish for us to sin? If it is, then you can make your argument. If not, then man's choices are not always subject to His wishes, even among believers. Believers make the autonomous decision to sin everyday. Believers make the autonomous decision to believe as they wish every day. Believers make the autonomous decision to belittle other believers every day.

"Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil." James 4:13-16

Marvin, you and I do not have the guarantee to be around tomorrow. If the Lord wills, we will live and do this and that, but if only the Lord wills, will we be around tomorrow.

The autonomy of man is a myth and is not scriptural.

Depending on how you answered the above questions I posed, we will know if it is a myth or not.

Oh yeah, if Cush would like to answer those questions also, he is more than welcome.

 

[True Science]

"1. Do you have autonomous freedom to choose which religious affiliation to adhere? We will use #3 above. Cush, Marvin, did you have the freedom to determine Calvinism, and its offshoots, as the religious belief you personally desire? Was there a government or ruling body which stated you must choose Calvinism? If you chose Calvinism on your own, your will was autonomous.

2. Who demanded or commanded you to choose Calvinism? Did God determine for you to choose Calvinism? Please describe how you knew God chose Calvinism for you in which you had absolutely no choice in the matter. Did you adhere to some other belief before Calvinism? If so, why wasn't God's determination followed? Did you freely choose these other beliefs on your own (autonomy), without regard to a God's determination?

3. If it is God's determination, ordination, and will for you life to love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, why did you say earlier you didn't? Is it because you determined autonomously not to do so?"

I utterly reject Calvinism but this is just begging the question.

"4. Since God commanded us to cast away our iniquity to get ourselves a new heart, then surely this must be His determination for our lives. Would you agree? Or does man get to choose what is God's determination for our lives (autonomy)? Since very few on this forum think this is God's truth and way in getting a new heart, does man reject God's way and get to autonomously choose how to get a new heart?"

Their God is doubleminded and doesn't know what he wants so it doesn't matter. Or he is just this narcissistic lying deceiver.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Comes from the bird's eye view of God's Word. You can't fly that high. You're hiding from calvinism where the worms live, in darkness. You'll envole to human agian a trillion years later and find God still in charge.

Rude and insane.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Oh, was there a question? Fire away then.

I love the ignore feature.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We don't know who the Elect are. Regeneration occurs in God's timing. A person may be condemned today by what they demonstrate, but Regeneration may occur tomorrow. If we knew who the Elect are, like by some big "E" printed on the back of their T-Shirt we would be more efficient if we only limited the Great Commission to them. However, since we do not know, we preach to all nations.... that is, from every tribe, tongue, and nation without distinction.

This reminds me of that Dr Suess cartoon with the Sneeches. Some had stars on their belly, some did not. The Sneeches with the Stars considered themselves better. Much better.

Until a machine came that could put a star on everyone. Then worn everyone having stars no o e could tell who was better anymore.

 

[GillDouglas]

Here are the problems with the way people view salvation: that the justice and fair treatment of men demand that ALL should have, either by nature or by grace, power to secure their own salvation with as little or no involvement from God as possible, falling right in line with the way atheists believe. Some would go so far to say that the cause of the regeneration process is the sinner's own act, and that EVERY man has sufficient ability and knowledge to secure his own salvation. Yet for some reason, there are those that simply refuse to act and save themselves, rather to exercise free will to reject God and damn themselves eternally.

But guess what, life is NOT just and fair. There is no argument that anyone can provide to disprove that men in this world find themselves unequally favored, both in inward disposition and outward circumstances. One is born to health, honor, wealth, being of eminently good and wise parents who train him up from infancy in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and who afford him every opportunity of being taught the Truth as it is in Scriptures. Another is born to disease, shame, poverty, being of dissipated and depraved parents who reject and ridicule and despise Christianity, taking care to prevent their child from coming under the influence by hearing the Gospel. Which is most likely to love the Lord and be saved? Both are born sinners, condemned to Hell, which will escape it? The correct answer is; the one that God chooses.

It cannot be said that God acts unjustly toward those who are not included in the plan of salvation, which is why so many reject the Calvinistic view. People who make this objection neglect to take into consideration the fact God is dealing with sinful creatures who are born His enemies. Man is born as such so that the sinner cannot allege he is the one who is unworthy of God's wrath, being some sort of self-made saint worthy of the Reward by his 'good' works. All are originally condemned out of one and the same lump, equally infected with sin and liable to God's vengeance. This being so that the justified may learn from the condemnation of the rest that this would have been their own punishment had not God's grace stepped in to rescue them. Therefore the Lord may give grace to whom He will, because He is merciful, and yet not give it to all because He is a just Judge; giving to some, His grace, which they never deserved.

All those who are His may and should know that they are among those who have been predestined to eternal life. Since faith in Christ, a gift given to us only by God, is the means of salvation, the person having this faith can be assured that he is among the elect. The mere presence of faith, no matter how weak it may be, provided it is real God given faith, is proof of salvation. Faith is a miracle of grace within those who have already been saved - a spiritual token that their salvation was finished on the Cross, and certified by the resurrection. The true Christian knows that the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts and that the Holy Spirit renews only those who are chosen by the Father and redeemed by the Son.

The subject of salvation, as seen by a Calvinist, is not as many would say, a mere cold and barren theology, nor a speculation which frustrates the minds of men without any benefit at all; but rather a solid discussion eminently adapted to the service of His children, to build each soundly in the faith, training in humility and lifting one another up into an admiration of the unbounded goodness of God towards us, continually praising His great goodness. There is not a more effectual means of building of faith and understanding of His mercy than the election of God, which the Holy Spirit seals upon our heart while we are given the Truth, showing us that it stands in the eternal and immutable goodwill of God towards the undeserving. Understanding that it was God Himself who secured us we are assured that it cannot be removed or altered by any storms of the world or by any assaults by Satan.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I meant essentially everything. Romans 1 teaches by implication that man must have the ability to know who the true God is, what he requires of him, and to be able to do it, in order for man to be without excuse and guilty of God's divine judgment.

I believe exactly as Romans 1 says. So does every Calvinist I know.

The chapter says that God gave these people over to a mind that would sin farther as a punishment for a particular sin that they did. Further it says that He gave them over because they violated the conscience that God has given to every man.

"Total depravity" means that all of man is permeated and effected in some way by the fall. Undoubtedly that is why all men sin in the first place and suffer God's wrath in various forms even now in this life.

When men reject truth from God - whether in their conscience or on tablets of stone or in the Bible - He withholds more truth until they get it right. This is principle that our Lord laid out very clearly for us.

Any inability to understand the gospel (as the Calvinists teach) stems directly from man's own violation of God's laws. It is just punishment for any man who does so. It is part of the wrath all experience because they transgress God's laws.

It is, specifically in a word, the wrath of abandonment.

This contradicts your position because you believe man is born guilty of Hell, born with a nature that makes it impossible for him to seek God and do his will, and most of man is predestined to never be enabled to do so. So are you seriously not going to go back and reconsider your position and just like to pay lip service to this text and just come up with some ad hoc fluff?

Yes- I believe that some men are predestined to believe and some are not. But then - I've said clearly that the predestination of all things that happen in God's creation does not conflict with the freedom of choice that men have. That is "freedom" in the most basic sense of the word.

No - Romans one does not contradict my position.

No - lip service only to my position. It is well considered.

No - I am not going back on my position. I often reconsider my position though as in this case.

 

[True Science]

Here are the problems with the way people view salvation: that the justice and fair treatment of men demand that ALL should have, either by nature or by grace, power to secure their own salvation with as little or no involvement from God as possible, falling right in line with the way atheists believe. Some would go so far to say that the cause of the regeneration process is the sinner's own act, and that EVERY man has sufficient ability and knowledge to secure his own salvation. Yet for some reason, there are those that simply refuse to act and save themselves, rather to exercise free will to reject God and damn themselves eternally.

But guess what, life is NOT just and fair. There is no argument that anyone can provide to disprove that men in this world find themselves unequally favored, both in inward disposition and outward circumstances. One is born to health, honor, wealth, being of eminently good and wise parents who train him up from infancy in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and who afford him every opportunity of being taught the Truth as it is in Scriptures. Another is born to disease, shame, poverty, being of dissipated and depraved parents who reject and ridicule and despise Christianity, taking care to prevent their child from coming under the influence by hearing the Gospel. Which is most likely to love the Lord and be saved? Both are born sinners, condemned to Hell, which will escape it? The correct answer is; the one that God chooses.

It cannot be said that God acts unjustly toward those who are not included in the plan of salvation, which is why so many reject the Calvinistic view. People who make this objection neglect to take into consideration the fact God is dealing with sinful creatures who are born His enemies. Man is born as such so that the sinner cannot allege he is the one who is unworthy of God's wrath, being some sort of self-made saint worthy of the Reward by his 'good' works. All are originally condemned out of one and the same lump, equally infected with sin and liable to God's vengeance. This being so that the justified may learn from the condemnation of the rest that this would have been their own punishment had not God's grace stepped in to rescue them. Therefore the Lord may give grace to whom He will, because He is merciful, and yet not give it to all because He is a just Judge; giving to some, His grace, which they never deserved.

All those who are His may and should know that they are among those who have been predestined to eternal life. Since faith in Christ, a gift given to us only by God, is the means of salvation, the person having this faith can be assured that he is among the elect. The mere presence of faith, no matter how weak it may be, provided it is real God given faith, is proof of salvation. Faith is a miracle of grace within those who have already been saved - a spiritual token that their salvation was finished on the Cross, and certified by the resurrection. The true Christian knows that the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts and that the Holy Spirit renews only those who are chosen by the Father and redeemed by the Son.

The subject of salvation, as seen by a Calvinist, is not as many would say, a mere cold and barren theology, nor a speculation which frustrates the minds of men without any benefit at all; but rather a solid discussion eminently adapted to the service of His children, to build each soundly in the faith, training in humility and lifting one another up into an admiration of the unbounded goodness of God towards us, continually praising His great goodness. There is not a more effectual means of building of faith and understanding of His mercy than the election of God, which the Holy Spirit seals upon our heart while we are given the Truth, showing us that it stands in the eternal and immutable goodwill of God towards the undeserving. Understanding that it was God Himself who secured us we are assured that it cannot be removed or altered by any storms of the world or by any assaults by Satan.

Plenty of unscriptural and illogical fallacies here.

Just because man has to meet requirements to be saved and has been created by God with the ability to do so doesn't mean he ultimately saves himself. Man cannot atone for his own sins and resurrect himself with a glorified everlasting body no matter how good he is.

What you said actually about the chaos and unfairness in this world is actually proof that man is free. Because or else God would save everyone because he does not desire the death of the wicked (Eze. 33:11). If God truly didn't desire the death of the wicked then in the Calvinist system the wicked would not die. God actually hates that it has to be the way it is right now in this fallen world:

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

The problem for you is that man can say your views are unjust as we have seen from our look at Romans 1. You can't escape it.

The Lord does not teach your view of Original Sin. Babies are not born God's enemies because the Lord said of such is the Kingdom (Mat_19:14; Mar_10:14; Luk_18:16). And if what you said was true, which it isn't, it would contradict Romans 1.

What you are saying comes from your own mind. Not from God.

 

[True Science]

I believe exactly as Romans 1 says. So does every Calvinist I know.

The chapter says that God gave these people over to a mind that would sin farther as a punishment for a particular sin that they did. Further it says that He gave them over because they violated the conscience that God has given to every man.

"Total depravity" means that all of man is permeated and effected in some way by the fall. Undoubtedly that is why all men sin in the first place and suffer God's wrath in various forms even now in this life.

When men reject truth from God - whether in their conscience or on tablets of stone or in the Bible - He withholds more truth until they get it right. This is principle that our Lord laid out very clearly for us.

Any inability to understand the gospel (as the Calvinists teach) stems directly from man's own violation of God's laws. It is just punishment for any man who does so. It is part of the wrath all experience because they transgress God's laws.

It is, specifically in a word, the wrath of abandonment.

Yes- I believe that some men are predestined to believe and some are not. But then - I've said clearly that the predestination of all things that happen in God's creation does not conflict with the freedom of choice that men have. That is "freedom" in the most basic sense of the word.

No - Romans one does not contradict my position.

No - lip service only to my position. It is well considered.

No - I am not going back on my position. I often reconsider my position though as in this case.

As I said nothing but ad hoc fluff. You are clearly searing your conscience, suppressing the truth about justice you inherently know. As Scripture says. This text isn't compatible with your fatalistic world view, sir.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Romans 1:21 is an example of judicial hardening and giving man up to his own desires and allowing him to become totally depraved through continued hardening of his hard against the truth of God that he knows but trades for a lie as a just judgment against him (Romans 1:18, 25).

So you believe in total depravity - you just believe that it comes along after sin?

That would allow you to defend the age of accountability argument I suppose.

But your problem seems to be with the doctrine of original sin and depravity as a snowballing inability.

That's an interesting stance. But it is not orthodox.

I believe in original sin myself.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You are missing the whole point. In Calvinism we can't do like the Scripture says, know them by their deeds. Because an elect justified and regenerate person could have fallen into some most grievous sins for quite a time of his life as a believer but he never lost his justified status or his regenerate heart and at some point he will repent and persevere to the end...................

Hence the Lord's clear admonition not to try to actually root up and destroy what we think are weeds lest we destroy some wheat along the way.

 

[True Science]

So you believe in total depravity - you just believe that it comes along after sin?

That would allow you to defend the age of accountability argument I suppose.

But your problem seems to be with the doctrine of original sin and depravity ans snowballing inability.

That's an interesting stance. But it is not orthodox.

I believe in original sin myself.

Sir, inability is not Scriptural:

Deu 30:11 "For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' (ESV)

Consider what these texts should say if God didn't mean what he said and inability were true:

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what does Jehovah your God ask of you, but to fear Jehovah your God, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deu 10:13 to keep the commandments of Jehovah, and His statutes, which I command you today for your good?

Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does Jehovah require of you but to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God?

They should say this:

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, Jehovah your God requires you to fear Jehovah your God, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deu 10:13 to keep the commandments of Jehovah, and His statutes, which I command you today to be an impossible burden to humble to show you that you can't do it so that you will realize you only need to trust me to do it for you. Whoa it is so hard!

Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good. Jehovah requires this impossible thing of you, to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Whoa!

 

[GillDouglas]

Plenty of unscriptural and illogical fallacies here.

Just because man has to meet requirements to be saved and has been created by God with the ability to do so doesn't mean he ultimately saves himself. Man cannot atone for his own sins and resurrect himself with a glorified everlasting body no matter how good he is.

What you said actually about the chaos and unfairness in this world is actually proof that man is free. Because or else God would save everyone because he does not desire the death of the wicked (Eze. 33:11). If God truly didn't desire the death of the wicked then in the Calvinist system the wicked would not die. God actually hates that it has to be the way it is right now in this fallen world:

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

The problem for you is that man can say your views are unjust as we have seen from our look at Romans 1. You can't escape it.

The Lord does not teach your view of Original Sin. Babies are not born God's enemies because the Lord said of such is the Kingdom (Mat_19:14; Mar_10:14; Luk_18:16). And if what you said was true, which it isn't, it would contradict Romans 1.

What you are saying comes from your own mind. Not from God.

Are the Nazarene stuck in Romans 1 like the Pentecostal are stuck in Acts? Regardless, there are no requirements that a man must meet in order for God to change the heart, lift the veil and give them new life. No man is free. He is either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness and he will only act according to his nature. If people are not born in sin, how they can be held accountable for debt owed to God? Why would Christ had need to die for those who are not sinners? If people were not born in sin then there would be the possibility that they may NEVER sin. As far as I know, Christ is the only one to have lived sinless. Man and his control is fleeting in comparison to God. Why pray if he can just do it himself? Why look to God, if he has no need of Him? If you don't like the fact that God is sovereign in ALL things, I can't fault you there but you may as well accept it. What YOU say comes from your mind bent on twisted ideas concerning salvation.

 

[True Science]

Hence the Lord's clear admonition not to try to actually root up and destroy what we think are weeds lest we destroy some wheat along the way.

So you admit your position is not Scriptural in this regard. Take the time to read this paper if you want to read something that decimates your visible and invisible church position: http://1drv.ms/1ScWAp8

 

[True Science]

Hence the Lord's clear admonition not to try to actually root up and destroy what we think are weeds lest we destroy some wheat along the way.

So you admit your position is not Scriptural in this regard. Take the time to read this paper if you want to read something that decimates your visible and invisible church position: http://1drv.ms/1ScWAp8

 

[Marvin Knox]

Here is the definition of autonomy at Dictionay.com -

1. the right or state of self-government, esp when limited
2. a state, community, or individual possessing autonomy
3. freedom to determine one's own actions, behaviour, etc
4. (philosophy) 1. the doctrine that the individual human will is or ought to be governed only by its own principles and laws
2. the state in which one's actions are autonomous

Let's use these definitions to answer some of the questions I presented above.

1. Do you have autonomous freedom to choose which religious affiliation to adhere? We will use #3 above. Cush, Marvin, did you have the freedom to determine Calvinism, and its offshoots, as the religious belief you personally desire? Was there a government or ruling body which stated you must choose Calvinism? If you chose Calvinism on your own, your will was autonomous.

2. Who demanded or commanded you to choose Calvinism? Did God determine for you to choose Calvinism? Please describe how you knew God chose Calvinism for you in which you had absolutely no choice in the matter. Did you adhere to some other belief before Calvinism? If so, why wasn't God's determination followed? Did you freely choose these other beliefs on your own (autonomy), without regard to a God's determination?

3. If it is God's determination, ordination, and will for you life to love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, why did you say earlier you didn't? Is it because you determined autonomously not to do so?

4. Since God commanded us to cast away our iniquity to get ourselves a new heart, then surely this must be His determination for our lives. Would you agree? Or does man get to choose what is God's determination for our lives (autonomy)? Since very few on this forum think this is God's truth and way in getting a new heart, does man reject God's way and get to autonomously choose how to get a new heart?



So, my lack of understanding dictates how he behaves?



I see we now are using the word 'completely'. Is there a partial autonomous?



I am sure glad that's not the case. Every unbelieving person would CONSTANTLY and CONTINUALLY hate, murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, cheat, and drink.

Another reason that isn't true, is that God has given believers a new nature, and they surely choose not to live by it. How many believers freely choose to sin with the new nature?



Did God put the paramaters of obedience in believers? Why do they still disobey God's word?



But I've heard if man rejects God's call to salvation, then he is sovereign over God. Do you believe if anyone rejects God's truth in His word, they make themselves sovereign over God?
Does man really have the power to make themselves sovereign over God?



Marvin, is it God's wish for us to sin? If it is, then you can make your argument. If not, then man's choices are not always subject to His wishes, even among believers. Believers make the autonomous decision to sin everyday. Believers make the autonomous decision to believe as they wish every day. Believers make the autonomous decision to belittle other believers every day.



Marvin, you and I do not have the guarantee to be around tomorrow. If the Lord wills, we will live and do this and that, but if only the Lord wills, will we be around tomorrow.



Depending on how you answered the above questions I posed, we will know if it is a myth or not.

Oh yeah, if Cush would like to answer those questions also, he is more than welcome.

I'm going to go with Webster's because it is the most accepted definition of Autonomy.

Simple Definition of autonomy

• : the state of existing or acting separately from others
  
  
• : the power or right of a country, group, etc., to govern itself

Full Definition of autonomy

1. 1 : the quality or state of being self-governing; especially : the right of self-government
   
   
2. 2 : self-directing freedom and especially moral independence

You do not exist and act separately from God. In Him you have your being.
You are not self-governing.
You do not have moral independence.

You do have the ability to make choices. Neither I nor any Calvinist disagrees with that.

If you think you have moral independence - wait until the Judgment Seat. Hopefully it won't be the Great White Throne.