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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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EmSw,

I'm glad that asked those questions because understanding the answer to the question of autonomy, or "free will" would take you ten steps closer to understanding why God must completely save a sinner, not simply offering him salvation. You can't understand what a Calvinist believes until you understand what Libertarian Free Will is, and what it is not.

How most Calvinists understand free will:
  1. A person is not forced from the outside to make a choice.
  2. A person is responsible for his choices.
  3. A person is the active agent in making a choice.

What free will is not:
  1. A person is free to do whatever he desires.
  2. A person has the ability to choose contrary to his nature. (this is vital to understand)
There is a huge contradiction with #2 on your second list versus your entire 1st list. Okay, if a person is not forced to be bad by some external thing like Adam's sin (#1 on your first list) then how is that in harmony with the idea that they cannot choose anything contrary to their sin nature that comes from Adam? Also, how can a person be responsible for their choices if they cannot choose any good beyond their sinful nature? How can a person be the active agent in making a choice if they cannot choose contrary to their nature?

...
 
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Cush

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I meant essentially everything. Romans 1 teaches by implication that man must have the ability to know who the true God is, what he requires of him, and to be able to do it, in order for man to be without excuse and guilty of God's divine judgment. This contradicts your position because you believe man is born guilty of Hell, born with a nature that makes it impossible for him to seek God and do his will, and most of man is predestined to never be enabled to do so. So are you seriously not going to go back and reconsider your position and just like to pay lip service to this text and just come up with some ad hoc fluff?

You crack me up, using Romans 1, using Paul a servant or slave of Jesus Christ.... for a free will argument.

You're stating that man knows God exists, Romans 1 does teach that it is his eternal power and divine nature that have been revealed through "Natural or General Revelation". However, if you read further in Romans 1 from Romans 1:21 and further, your argument is lost. Especially if you consider into the further chapters. Romans chapter 3:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

You clearly ignore what you want and bend Scripture in order to fit your own contrived doctrine.
 
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Cush

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In Calvinism you can't know people by their fruits because someone might not be elect and have good fruit and just a "hypocrite" as they call it.

We don't know who the Elect are. Regeneration occurs in God's timing. A person may be condemned today by what they demonstrate, but Regeneration may occur tomorrow. If we knew who the Elect are, like by some big "E" printed on the back of their T-Shirt we would be more efficient if we only limited the Great Commission to them. However, since we do not know, we preach to all nations.... that is, from every tribe, tongue, and nation without distinction.
 
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True Science

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You're stating that man knows God exists, Romans 1 does teach that it is his eternal power and divine nature that have been revealed through "Natural or General Revelation". However, if you read further in Romans 1 from Romans 1:21 and further, your argument is lost. Especially if you consider into the further chapters. Romans chapter 3:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

You clearly ignore what you want and bend Scripture in order to fit your own contrived doctrine.

Romans 1:21 is an example of judicial hardening and giving man up to his own desires and allowing him to become totally depraved through continued hardening of his hard against the truth of God that he knows but trades for a lie as a just judgment against him (Romans 1:18, 25). Look how your text does not support you:

Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and [as consequence] foolish heart was darkened.

And if read even further to the end of the chapter your case further falls apart:

Rom 1:26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; being full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, evil habits, becoming whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, proud, braggarts, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 undiscerning, perfidious, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous order of God, that those practicing such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but have pleasure in those practicing them.

If you go back to the original Psalms Paul is quoting in your Romans 3 proof text you will see how it contradicts you:

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They [the fools that say in their heart there is no God, or the Hebrew could be translated as "no God" meaning they say no to God] are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men [mere children of man not children of God; doesn't refer to every single last human that has existed, exists or will exist, we generalizations like this all over Scripture, examples: Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard and which was proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,; Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. . . . Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.], to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. [see the distinction between "workers of iniquity" vs. "my people"?]
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. [O so there is some who are righteous and that is who God is with. Thus we see a distinction between these people and those of whom there is none righteous no not one.]
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Now knowing this but ignoring it and just taking this proof text of your for the sake of argument:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; [does this say, no one is able to be righteous, no not one?]
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. [does this say, no one is able to understand, no one is able to seek after God?]
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [does this say, people have no choice but to turn aside, have no choice but to become worthless, have no ability to do good, not even one?]

Using Romans is very bad to teach what you do by isolating it. All throughout in context one of the main themes is that salvation is not only for Jews but also for Gentiles. It is written against Jews who say only Jews who have received the Law can be saved and is written to refute this and show this is a lie. Paul argues that both Jews and the nations are under sin (Rom. 3:9), and so both need a savior, and because God is not an unjust respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11 ), salvation in Christ is for all peoples. All peoples have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and so all peoples need salvation in Christ and so God who shows no favoritism offers it to all peoples not just Israel. That is the point of Romans, sir.

"You clearly ignore what you want and bend Scripture in order to fit your own contrived doctrine."

Really? Because that is how I see you.
 
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True Science

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We don't know who the Elect are. Regeneration occurs in God's timing. A person may be condemned today by what they demonstrate, but Regeneration may occur tomorrow. If we knew who the Elect are, like by some big "E" printed on the back of their T-Shirt we would be more efficient if we only limited the Great Commission to them. However, since we do not know, we preach to all nations.... that is, from every tribe, tongue, and nation without distinction.

You are missing the whole point. In Calvinism we can't do like the Scripture says, know them by their deeds. Because an elect justified and regenerate person could have fallen into some most grievous sins for quite a time of his life as a believer but he never lost his justified status or his regenerate heart and at some point he will repent and persevere to the end, but until then he is still a justified born again child of God, even if he became a murderer. It is Calvinist doctrine:

"Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves"

But this is contra-Scripture:

Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat_7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
 
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True Science

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"You crack me up, using Romans 1, using Paul a servant or slave of Jesus Christ.... for a free will argument."

>>> Why would Paul being Christ's slave negate free will?

Lev 25:47 "If a stranger or sojourner with you becomes rich, and your brother beside him becomes poor and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner with you or to a member of the stranger's clan,

Exo 21:5 But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'
Exo 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.
 
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tulipbee

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We don't know who the Elect are. Regeneration occurs in God's timing. A person may be condemned today by what they demonstrate, but Regeneration may occur tomorrow. If we knew who the Elect are, like by some big "E" printed on the back of their T-Shirt we would be more efficient if we only limited the Great Commission to them. However, since we do not know, we preach to all nations.... that is, from every tribe, tongue, and nation without distinction.
Regeneration accurs before birth
 
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tulipbee

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We don't know who the Elect are. Regeneration occurs in God's timing. A person may be condemned today by what they demonstrate, but Regeneration may occur tomorrow. If we knew who the Elect are, like by some big "E" printed on the back of their T-Shirt we would be more efficient if we only limited the Great Commission to them. However, since we do not know, we preach to all nations.... that is, from every tribe, tongue, and nation without distinction.
Time don't exist in regeneration cause it is the creation itself. God doesn't need time
 
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tulipbee

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Where in scripture does this idea, which I've never heard of before, come from?
Comes from the bird's eye view of God's Word. You can't fly that high. You're hiding from calvinism where the worms live, in darkness. You'll envole to human agian a trillion years later and find God still in charge.
 
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True Science

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"What is free will in a timeless formless eventless state?"

You assume that Scripture teaches God is a changeless neo-platonic monad huperousia according to the doctrine of divine simplicity. Scripture clearly teaches God is a person who dwells in the heaven of heavens which he created, who has feelings and emotions, interacts with man, and changes his mind, and even changes how he operates (he begot a Son from his substance before the ages and later he became flesh and dwelt among us).
 
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True Science

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Comes from the bird's eye view of God's Word. You can't fly that high. You're hiding from calvinism where the worms live, in darkness. You'll envole to human agian a trillion years later and find God still in charge.

He's a Presbyterian. Although I have to wonder how much he truly believes in it because it says he is a Libertarian. Not compatible with Calvinism, and not compatible with the Bible at all.
 
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FreeGrace2

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MY sheep hear MY voice, is very direct.
Wrong context. And in Jn 5:25 Jesus wasn't talking about sheep. He was talking about the dead. Spiritually dead people who will hear Him. Why such strong resistance against these facts?
 
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tulipbee

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"What is free will in a timeless formless eventless state?"

You assume that Scripture teaches God is a changeless neo-platonic monad huperousia according to the doctrine of divine simplicity. Scripture clearly teaches God is a person who dwells in the heaven of heavens which he created, who has feelings and emotions, interacts with man, and changes his mind, and even changes how he operates (he begot a Son from his substance before the ages and later he became flesh and dwelt among us).
God is the past, present and the future at the same time. You put God in a box so he can't be everywhere at the same time.
 
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True Science

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Universal catholic I am

So what is your view of regeneration then? Is it when someone hears the Word of God and believes so that some Seed/Word has taken root on the heart so it is like conception and then born again is when the person repents, confesses Christ, gets baptized, get filled with the Spirit, and joins the Church?
 
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