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The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.What you quoting there is the regeneration. The dead will hear Him speak to them so they then become alive. Like Lazarus who was dead, Jesus speaks to Lazarus, not every single person in earshot.
'Those who hear will live', they hear because He spoke just to them alone, not all the dead.
I gave you a few posts having to do with thoughts, our thoughts originating from ourselves. And thoughts come from the mind. God does not think for us our thoughts.Apparently, but we're still without a firm answer, if that's the case...and I think that there must BE a definite answer.
Well if you think about that stupid Ashton Kutcher movie, The Butterfly Effect, any little decision or choice affected the bigger picture. Everything that we do, no matter how small, is governed by the fact that we're working towards something that God has put into place.I may have. However, I don't think that conclusively answers the question. I agree that all things are within God's eternal purpose, etc. but I'm not finding a hard and fast answer there that tells me that the doctrine of Predestination means, for example, that I will choose brand A over brand B when in the grocery store and will put on the red shirt instead of the blue one or that I choose not to get on flight 798 when boarding in the terminal because God made me do whatever it was.
Is that the case OR is it, as I've always thought, that being among the Elect (or not) is what Predestination is about, and all the little decisions we make along the way are not predetermined except for God having some overall plan, direction, the "whole scope," etc. (which just about any Christian acknowledges)?
Anyway, I appreciate that you replied to me. It looked like the thread was sweeping past my post again.
Never said it did. The point is that all men are completely accountable to God. And the verses showed that God has already initiated action towards mankind.Romans 1, God revealed himself to ALL in the things He has made, tis true. If you notice, that revelation does not accomplish any salvation.
I don't see why. Everyone's spiritually dead without God. He has chosen some people, however, who will hear and understand. They hear and understand only because he has determined that they will (or, we could say, because he's made that possible).The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.
Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards.
Please address and answer my questions in post #3339. Thanks.According to Calvin, Gilldouglas, the doctrine of predestination applies to absolutely that happens, no matter how great or small it is.
Never said it did. The point is that all men are completely accountable to God. And the verses showed that God has already initiated action towards mankind.
Calvinism thinks that it's regeneration that's the initiation of God towards man that enables man to come to Christ.
No, He hasn't. That's just Calvinist opinion. There are no verses to support that claim.I don't see why. Everyone's spiritually dead without God. He has chosen some people, however, who will hear and understand.
Show me the verses.They hear and understand only because he has determined that they will (or, we could say, because he's made that possible).
No id doesn't. And the Bible doesn't support the claim.Whether or not that's true, it makes sense.
Never said it did. The point is that all men are completely accountable to God. And the verses showed that God has already initiated action towards mankind.
Calvinism thinks that it's regeneration that's the initiation of God towards man that enables man to come to Christ.
It is for me, because I didn't see that movie.Well if you think about that stupid Ashton Kutcher movie, The Butterfly Effect, any little decision or choice affected the bigger picture. Everything that we do, no matter how small, is governed by the fact that we're working towards something that God has put into place.
I know this is a terrible analogy, but I like to think of this life as a story that God is the Author of.
I was a teaching elder in the PCUSA for many years. I left them because of the stress involved with correcting liberals such as yourself.Actually, the term "Protestant" probably first got started in 1529, when Luther's followers issued a letter of protest against the Diet of Spyer, which reinforced the ban on Luther's teachings.
You seemed puzzled about my background, so let me explain a bit where I am from. I am PCUSA. I have an earned doctorate in theology from the conjoint program between a major university and a solid PCUSA seminary. I am somewhat of a Calvin scholar, as I translated and published two volumes of his un- translated sermons on Micah and Jeremiah. However, my AOS is process theology. Maybe that is what is puzzling you. Process is a major movement in contemporary Christian theology, Protestant and otherwise. In fact, The Center for Process Studies is at the Claremont School of Theology, which is a prestigious Methodist seminary. Because process is a very academic field, many laity are not too familiar with it. I would identify myself as a very liberal Christian. I believe in a healthy skepticism about traditions and dogmas, creativity, the authority of personal experience over doctrine, and the validity of other religions. Of course, that is more to it than that. I don't know how far you want me to go into this, but it is important to recognize that process provides a radically different model of God than that presented by classical theism or the classical Christian picture of God as he is in his own nature. I have been working from that. if you want, I can spell this out in more detail. Let me know. Also, if you don't min my asking, just what part of the country do you live in? Either you like to stay up until the wee hours of the morning or live l way in the West. like me. I'm a sourdough myself.
Well your verses just prove my point. That one comes to faith by hearing the Word of God and the gospel.No one can even hear unless they already His. John 6 comes after John 5. . .
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:63-65 ESV)
I don't see why. Everyone's spiritually dead without God. He has chosen some people, however, who will hear and understand. They hear and understand only because he has determined that they will (or, we could say, because he's made that possible).
Whether or not that's true, it makes sense.
It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots! Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.It is for me, because I didn't see that movie.But what I'm getting is that everything is consequential and orderly--and set in motion from all eternity--but that's not quite the same as saying that every last decision and act is predetermined and we have no actual choice in the matter. Or is it? No doubt I'm missing something.
I believe that's a mistake. In the absence of God's intervention, we are all responsible for our sins and so are spiritually dead. We'll be judged on that basis. It's not as though the natural man is in neutral territory and so God would have no basis on which to condemn anyone.No it doesn't because as we have seen from Romans 1 God's Word presupposes that man must be able to know who he is and what he requires and to be able to perform it for God to be able to justly condemn him as guilty and punish him accordingly. Your position is diametrically opposed to this because it says God controls who believes and who does not and no one has any real choice outside of this to believe and yet God can still condemn the unbelievers to Hell.
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