Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Marvin Knox]

So, let's think about this for a minute. Think about it.

So, if God predestines everything in our lives, than what is the point of Judgement Day at all?

The point of judgment day is for everyone to answer for what they have done in their life whether good or bad.

Why would God even judge a creation that has no choice or free will at all.

Man has free will. Believing in predestination does not teach otherwise.

Predestination is perfectly compatible with free will. (We could delve deeply now into exactly how free the will of fallen man is. But then – there have been entire books written about that – haven’t there?)

In the simple sense of the term “free will” (where we will stay for now) – men have free will to do whatever their human nature allows them to do.

When you or anyone else says that men have no choice in what they do – they are wrong. Any Calvinist who goes that far without nuancing what he means is wrong. Any non-Calvinist who says that men must be robots or puppets or some such thing if everything they do is predestined to happen is wrong – plain and simple. They just haven’t thought the concept of predestination through at all it appears to me.

Without a long debate whether or not He did – if I said that God predestined a great earthquake to take place in the tribulation period that was so strong as to remove every island from it’s place, likely no one here would say that He would have to change the laws of nature and geology to accomplish what He predestined to occur. Nature could still act in accordance with the laws that God set in place when He created the earth and still do exactly what God determined to happen.

If I said that God predestined that the very infallible and inerrant Word of God be written and preserved for us in the gospel age by fallible men just like us – likely no one here would say that God would have to do away with the desires and natures of men and treat them like robots and puppets to accomplish what He predestined to occur. We all believe that the writers of the scriptures wrote what they wanted to write of their own free will and in their own style and words – even as God accomplished exactly what He had predestined to be written.

But only in this very select area of what we call “soteriolgy” it seems – people here are quick to say that if God predestined our actions to happen before time, He would have to take away our desires and free will and treat us like robots and puppets to bring to past exactly what He predestined to take place in time.

I would suggest to all here that your indignation and claims of robotics and puppetry is very select indeed. In this case – your sensibilities come into play because you believe that God would have to be unfair to predestine all salvation occurrences and lack thereof. Your emotional objections over predestination are completely arbitrary in what areas you become indignant about.

It would be humorous to watch the recognized rules of logic be thrown out the window just because of personal emotional attachments to certain ideas. That is – it would be humorous if the consequences to our determining sound systematic theology were not so grave.

According to what we are shown in the Word of God - the predestination by God of all things that happen in His creation is completely compatible with the free choices of His creatures.

There is no logical reason to say that it must be otherwise.

What is more the very nature of God and the nature of His creation and God’s omnipresent and providential control over that creation according to what the Bible clearly teaches --- absolutely demand that we believe that God has predestined everything that happens in His creation and that He is actively working to bring it all to past..

God could choose the believers and then there would be two groups of people on earth, exactly alike in every way except that some were chosen and some were not.

There are two groups exactly like that. They are all sinners under the curse of God and under His wrath even as they live this life on earth.

God reserves the right to choose from the same lump of clay vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath. One thing it is impossible to miss in that concept is that the “lump” is sinful without exception..

Some of the clay are recipients of the grace of God that brings them to salvation in spite of their guilt in order that He can display His mercy and grace in the ages to come.

Others, of the same guilty fallen nature as these, God passes by for the glory of the display of His justice and wrath in the ages to come.

You and I might wish it was otherwise. But then - from our vantage point and clouded in our understanding of such things by sin as we are – we really should leave the holiness of God to Him to defend and not twist doctrine to protect it.

That’s exactly what many evangelicals do IMO – even most of evangelicals.

 

[EmSw]

I believe it is simply a misunderstanding, Wayne. To use a common phrase to try to get you to see what I mean here: 'The ends justify the means.' God ALLOWS wickedness and evil to occur in order that His will is achieved.

Let me see if I got this straight, God allows wickedness, but didn't determine it in man, correct?

If God allows wickedness, who determines wickedness in man? Also, if God allows wickedness, then God didn't determine all things, but goes with the actions of man.

I am glad you mentioned He allows wickedness in order that His will is achieved. Is it God's will for man to sin? Or is it God's will for man to sin no more?

It is God's will for man to love Him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Why is it, His will isn't accomplished?

 

[Cush]

The Bible gives us a clear path of what God wants us to be, but so many people just sit on their hands and live their lives waiting for God to do something in their lives.

I ask that you accept the choice to flap your arms like a bird and reach the heavens. Whether you are grounded due to your human nature, I won't discuss. And I surely will not attempt to compel you to try. If you reject the choice and choose to not even try, or if you choose to try, the choice is yours.

My question is whether you're going to sit on your hands or not? You are clearly stating fatalism. I'd just like to demonstrate that your choice is very real, powerless as it may be without God.

 

[GillDouglas]

That is anti-biblical.

God was pleased after He created mankind ( A & E) and said it was good.

After Adam & Eve sinned, God was not pleased.

The Word tells us that God HATES sin.

God is holy. He can only be holy.

How is God's will achieved through wickedness and evil?

Has anything bad ever happened that eventual good came out of it? In a world event or personal experience?

 

[GillDouglas]

Let me see if I got this straight, God allows wickedness, but didn't determine it in man, correct?

If God allows wickedness, who determines wickedness in man? Also, if God allows wickedness, then God didn't determine all things, but goes with the actions of man.

I am glad you mentioned He allows wickedness in order that His will is achieved. Is it God's will for man to sin? Or is it God's will for man to sin no more?

It is God's will for man to love Him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Why is it, His will isn't accomplished?

Correct. God allowed sin to enter into the world through the actions of one man. Men are the wicked beings who brought about sin, and their wickedness is in perfect harmony with the freedom of their sinful nature, which they themselves are responsible for. All things that they do may appear to be done contingently, but in reality are done necessarily and immutably with respect to the will of God. Men freely do what He purposes. Some men will continue living in sin and others will sin less.

God will harden some, and lift the veil on others. It's a difficult thing to consider, that He might harden one and give Truth to another. He hasn't given us all the reasons for everything He's determined, at least not to me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The point of judgment day is for everyone to answer for what they have done in their life whether good or bad.

Man has free will. Believing in predestination does not teach otherwise.

Predestination is perfectly compatible with free will. (We could delve deeply now into exactly how free the will of fallen man is. But then – there have been entire books written about that – haven’t there?)

In the simple sense of the term “free will” (where we will stay for now) – men have free will to do whatever their human nature allows them to do.

When you or anyone else says that men have no choice in what they do – they are wrong. Any Calvinist who goes that far without nuancing what he means is wrong. Any non-Calvinist who says that men must be robots or puppets or some such thing if everything they do is predestined to happen is wrong – plain and simple. They just haven’t thought the concept of predestination through at all it appears to me.

Without a long debate whether or not He did – if I said that God predestined a great earthquake to take place in the tribulation period that was so strong as to remove every island from it’s place, likely no one here would say that He would have to change the laws of nature and geology to accomplish what He predestined to occur. Nature could still act in accordance with the laws that God set in place when He created the earth and still do exactly what God determined to happen.

If I said that God predestined that the very infallible and inerrant Word of God be written and preserved for us in the gospel age by fallible men just like us – likely no one here would say that God would have to do away with the desires and natures of men and treat them like robots and puppets to accomplish what He predestined to occur. We all believe that the writers of the scriptures wrote what they wanted to write of their own free will and in their own style and words – even as God accomplished exactly what He had predestined to be written.

But only in this very select area of what we call “soteriolgy” it seems – people here are quick to say that if God predestined our actions to happen before time, He would have to take away our desires and free will and treat us like robots and puppets to bring to past exactly what He predestined to take place in time.

I would suggest to all here that your indignation and claims of robotics and puppetry is very select indeed. In this case – your sensibilities come into play because you believe that God would have to be unfair to predestine all salvation occurrences and lack thereof. Your emotional objections over predestination are completely arbitrary in what areas you become indignant about.

It would be humorous to watch the recognized rules of logic be thrown out the window just because of personal emotional attachments to certain ideas. That is – it would be humorous if the consequences to our determining sound systematic theology were not so grave.

According to what we are shown in the Word of God - the predestination by God of all things that happen in His creation is completely compatible with the free choices of His creatures.

There is no logical reason to say that it must be otherwise.

What is more the very nature of God and the nature of His creation and God’s omnipresent and providential control over that creation according to what the Bible clearly teaches --- absolutely demand that we believe that God has predestined everything that happens in His creation and that He is actively working to bring it all to past..

There are two groups exactly like that. They are all sinners under the curse of God and under His wrath even as they live this life on earth.

God reserves the right to choose from the same lump of clay vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath. One thing it is impossible to miss in that concept is that the “lump” is sinful without exception..

Some of the clay are recipients of the grace of God that brings them to salvation in spite of their guilt in order that He can display His mercy and grace in the ages to come.

Others, of the same guilty fallen nature as these, God passes by for the glory of the display of His justice and wrath in the ages to come.

You and I might wish it was otherwise. But then - from our vantage point and clouded in our understanding of such things by sin as we are – we really should leave the holiness of God to Him to defend and not twist doctrine to protect it.

That’s exactly what many evangelicals do IMO – even most of evangelicals.

Well we obviously disagree because God doesn't predestine all thingsgot most all obviously does not pre-Dustin sin does not predestine pain does not predestine evil God gives human beings the free will and his image to do slow things but they're not predestined by God

 

[GillDouglas]

This is the problem with certain doctrine, in this case, Calvinism.

There comes a point when human beings stop taking responsibility for their actions or even the lack of action because they get complacent because God is doing everything.
But I think that is a false sense of what God wants from us.

God gives us blessings so we do well with them. The Word tells us to those who do well with what God has given them, He gives them more. The Bible gives us a clear path of what God wants us to be, but so many people just sit on their hands and live their lives waiting for God to do something in their lives. BUT the glory to God is the living of the day to day life. Remaining faithful and staying in communion with Him. We are not waiting for God to do something great. We are giving our lives to Him and looking for all the ways we can do the things that He has taught us in His Word, in our lives.

The responsibility of men's actions (or inaction) still rests on them. Choices made, whether good or bad, are all made in regards to God's will. Natural men act according to their sinful nature. Godly men, guided by the Holy Spirit, act according to their new nature. All things for the glory of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thursday said: ↑
God is powerful enough to choose to grant us free will.

We are made in his image.

Man's free will is more powerful than God's?

Of course not. But how would man's freedom of choice even be a threat to God? Please explain.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The responsibility of men's actions (or inaction) still rests on them. Choices made, whether good or bad, are all made in regards to God's will. Natural men act according to their sinful nature. Godly men, guided by the Holy Spirit, act according to their new nature. All things for the glory of God.

Sin is not part of gods well I think you should read the Word a little more.

You obviously forget the Garden and when man was in Gods will

 

[EmSw]

Matthew Henry Commentary on Rev 4:11, note (3.)

3. The words of adoration: they said, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honour, and power, Rev. 4:11. Observe, (1.) They do not say, We give thee glory, and honour, and power; for what can any creature pretend to give unto God? But they say,thou art worthy to receive glory. (2.) In this they tacitly acknowledge that God is exalted far above all blessing and praise. He was worthy to receive glory, but they were not worthy to praise, nor able to do it according to his infinite excellences.

4. We have the ground and reason of their adoration, which is threefold:—

(1.) He is the Creator of all things, the first cause; and none but the Creator of all things should be adored; no made thing can be the object of religious worship.

(2.) He is the preserver of all things, and his preservation is a continual creation; they are created still by the sustaining power of God. All beings but God are dependent upon the will and power of God, and no dependent being must be set up as an object of religious worship. It is the part of the best dependent beings to be worshippers, not to be worshipped.

(3.) He is the final cause of all things: For thy pleasure they are and were created. It was his will and pleasure to create all things; he was not put upon it by the will of another; there is no such thing as a subordinate creator, that acts under and by the will and power of another; and, if there were, he ought not to be worshipped. As God made all things at his pleasure, so he made them for his pleasure, to deal with them as he pleases and to glorify himself by them one way or other. Though he delights not in the death of sinners, but rather that they should turn and live, yet he hath made all things for himself, Prov. 16:4. Now if these be true and sufficient grounds for religious worship, as they are proper to God alone, Christ must needs be God, one with the Father and Spirit, and be worshipped as such; for we find the same causality ascribed to him. Col. 1:16, 17, All things were created by him and for him, and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So, God created 'things' in which He has no delight. Just think, we would have a perfect world, if only God created 'things' that pleased Him.

Would you say it is God's will that man sin? How can man override God's will? If God made all things for Himself, how do you explain God making sinful man to break His will?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So, God created 'things' in which He has no delight. Just think, we would have a perfect world, if only God created 'things' that pleased Him.

Would you say it is God's will that man sin? How can man override God's will? If God made all things for Himself, how do you explain God making sinful man to break His will?

It's called free well the exact reason why we're not Calvinists

 

[ToBeLoved]

So, God created 'things' in which He has no delight. Just think, we would have a perfect world, if only God created 'things' that pleased Him.

Would you say it is God's will that man sin? How can man override God's will? If God made all things for Himself, how do you explain God making sinful man to break His will?

So if everything is in gods will that we do that's either pleasing to God or that sinful if it's all God's will why would we need a savior to forgive us from sin if us committing sin wasn't a problem.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense and conflicts with the Bible left right up-and-down

 

[EmSw]

So if everything is in gods will that we do that's either pleasing to God or that sinful if it's all God's will why would we need a savior to forgive us from sin if us committing sin wasn't a problem.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense and conflicts with the Bible left right up-and-down

I didn't say everything we do is God's will. I am not a Reformed believer, believing all things are determined beforehand by God. I believe all things are determined according to our actions while living.

 

[sdowney717]

Well we obviously disagree because God doesn't predestine all thingsgot most all obviously does not pre-Dustin sin does not predestine pain does not predestine evil God gives human beings the free will and his image to do slow things but they're not predestined by God

Jesus says those who sin are sin's slave
Jesus says if He makes you free of sin you shall really be truly free of sin.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

God gives people free will, and so what they do is they with that is freely sin. their are evil by nature and due to that evil nature they sin. And one of those sins is not believing in Christ.

Only way out of sin is by trusting in Christ to give you the new nature and be free from the sting of death due to sin.
Since those who do not believe in Christ will most assuredly die in their sins.
And those who do believe in Christ, their sins are forgiven them for His names sake.

And the only way to believe in Christ is if Christ makes you free of your old nature by regenerating in you a new nature favorable to God and Christ. Afterwards then you can believe in Christ since you have the Father's word abiding in you.

John 5, v38 tells us this. If you do not have the Father's word abiding in you, you will not believe in Christ when He appears on the scene of your life. God's word would be abiding in you if you had been worked on by God being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

And if your not regenerated, then Christ says, you're not willing to come to Him to live eternally.

 

[EmSw]

It's called free well the exact reason why we're not Calvinists

I absolutely believe in the free-will of man in all his actions. Some Reformed will say free-will is our idol; however, if they would actually read what an idol is in the OT, they would know free-will isn't formed by man from wood or gold.

 

[sdowney717]

I didn't say everything we do is God's will. I am not a Reformed believer, believing all things are determined beforehand by God. I believe all things are determined according to our actions while living.

Clearly that this is against what God has said.
God determines all things, man shows by his actions that he is worthy of hell fire because he sins and frequently.
God though over rules man by making him born again, even while still following the satan.

 

[EmSw]

Clearly that this is against what God has said.
God determines all things, man shows by his actions that he is worthy of hell fire because he sins and frequently.
God though over rules man by making him born again, even while still following the satan.

By what measure, and at what time, does God determine?

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, Which I commanded My servants the prophets, Did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.’

How is what I said against what God said? Read what Zechariah says. God determines according to our ways and our deeds. He doesn't determine before we are born; He determines during our lifetime, that is, according to our ways and deeds.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Clearly that this is against what God has said.
God determines all things, man shows by his actions that he is worthy of hell fire because he sins and frequently.
God though over rules man by making him born again, even while still following the satan.

Did you just say that God over rules man by making him born again?

 

[Cush]

Lets at least understand the terminology we (Calvinist) are using:

What does "Rebirth", "Born Again", "Born from Above" or "Regeneration" Mean?

 

[sdowney717]

Did you just say that God over rules man by making him born again?

Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that. Born again is being regenerated. Those born again are those made alive in the Spirit, they then sit with Christ in heavenly places. Being regenerated comes before our faith. God works out the details regarding our justification by faith, but we must be born again prior to entering the kingdom of God.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly placesin Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.