Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

This is your conclusion. Jesus wore sandals, that doesn't mean I have to wear them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Usually OSAS is tied to Calvinism. OSAS is just another way of saying, "sin and still be saved" because once a person is saved, there is nothing they can do to become unsaved.

Which the Bible promises as a guarantee. Please read Eph 1;13,14.

But, the phrase "sin and still be saved" highly insinuates at least that if one does sin after faith in Christ, they lose salvation. Which you've YET to prove from Scripture.

So, according to your own testimony from post #2344, you're not saved yourself. There is no other conclusion from all your posts.

 

[sdowney717]

Thank you for letting me know. Granted, I do not believe in Calvinism and I never will for many reasons.


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Interesting you say that...
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Obviously when the Scriptures say be ye imitators of our Lord, it is clearly talking in a spiritual sense or in how one behaves and not fashion.

Speaking in parables is something that our Lord did for a good reason. For the Lord does not do things without a reason or with no purpose. Everything the Lord our did (that relates to the spirit and right behavior) had great meaning and purpose behind it.

I've already shown from Scripture WHY Jesus used parables. It was for those not interested in the truth.

Jesus said, his words are spirit and they are life. So there is life in the words of his parables.

No, it was His explanation of the parables to His disciples that were life. The parables weren't even understood by His disciples.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You mean they trump the parables in Scripture or those made by others?

I wasn't talking about "others". I was specifically speaking about the inspired words of Paul and his testimony. Which you've rejected.

If you are talking about parables made by others, then Jesus should not have accepted the Canaanite woman's example or parable back about how the dogs can eat the crumbs from the Master's table......

Who else in Scripture spoke in parables?

Actually, who cares? It doesn't matter. I've given direct and real world examples from Scripture that you're already rejected. There is nothing more to say about it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, they are not. But you are entitled to your own opinion.

Well, I asked several questions in my post. To question or statement are you replying to?

Do you believe sin is transgression of the Law?
Is not breaking the Commandments the same as sinning?

Do you know Him when you sin?

I do not believe God departs a person immediately if they sin. No. I believe God allows time for a believer to repent or confess of their sin. 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know and break his Commandments. Meaning, this is the type of believer who is abiding in unrepentant or unconfessed sin and thinking they are saved. This is confirmed by 1 John 3:15 that says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Meaning, it is talking about the murderer who is still being a murderer. Only sin that is confessed and forsaken can be forgiven. 1 John 1:9 mentions how we are to confess so as to be forgiven. 1 John 1:7 mentions how we are to forsake sin by the fact that we are to walk in the light as he is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. For it is the same thing that is said in Proverbs 28:13. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. So if believer is not confessing and forsaking sin, then they are placing themselves into spiritual danger.


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[Marvin Knox]

Parables are useless unless the meaning of it is told.

Really? The meaning of most of the parables weren't told to us.

When the disciples asked Jesus to explain parables, Jesus surely didn't call them idiots. Why does it even cross your mind to call others idiots? But I think you got it right when you said, 'My NATURAL reply'. What would be your 'spiritual' reply?

The really spiritual reply would be to have just answered your questions and not told you about my true feelings.

Jesus didn't play along with the disciple's request; I am sure He was quite honest with them.

I was quite honest with you as well. To a fault in fact.

And, like Jesus, I condescended to explain the parable to you.

I am being very serious here Marvin. No one is born as an orphan in an orphange; they were born sons or daughters of genuine parents, and which at some time, they were put into an orphanage. So, when does a child become an orphan and take on the 'new identity' of the orphanage?

What do you mean by 'turned over to the world'? Back to the orphanage? Let loose in his sin? Let the boy continue as is? How does 'turned over to the world' destroy his flesh?

The fact that you are very "serious" in what you said and asked following is exactly what bothers me about you.

Thinking of you as an idiot does seem a bit harsh and rash. But it really doesn't seem like you are playing with a full deck.

When I first started conversing with you some time ago and remember thinking that you weren't the sharpest tool in the shed.

But at times you have seemed quite lucid and convincing in your ideas - even though I disagreed with most of them.

But about the time I start to think that I had you wrong all along - you show up and prove me wrong by saying or asking some really dumb things.

Are you bi-polar by any chance?

Interesting Marvin. So I take a rescued orphan can never get deeper in more evil sins. I find that in the real world, if a person remains in his sins without remorse, they tend to go deeper in sin.

Why on earth would you "take" that?

I find the same thing that you said.

Who said otherwise?

 

[GillDouglas]

Thank you for letting me know. Granted, I do not believe in Calvinism and I never will for many reasons.
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Calvinism was just a response to Armenianism. It's simply a doctrine about why/how/when we are saved, not necessary to believe in it to be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wasn't talking about "others". I was specifically speaking about the inspired words of Paul and his testimony. Which you've rejected.

So are you saying the testimony of Paul refutes the idea that we cannot use parables?
Where in the Bible does it say that?

Who else in Scripture spoke in parables?

Actually, who cares? It doesn't matter. I've given direct and real world examples from Scripture that you're already rejected. There is nothing more to say about it.

Paul did not preach a different gospel than Jesus. Paul essentially said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Actually, I believe speaking in parables does matter because our Lord used them and the Lord approved of a Gentile woman to use one so as to expound on what Jesus said. For spiritual truth can be understood by the use of real world examples. Real world examples or parables shows whether or not somebody is interpreting the Bible correctly. For as I said before, it is easier to twist the Bible than it is to twist something that everyone know is true in the real world.


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[Marvin Knox]

Well, for one, I do not believe in Eternal Concious Torment.....

Like I said before, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism was just a response to Armenianism. It's simply a doctrine about why/how/when we are saved, not necessary to believe in it to be saved.

I do not trust in man made historical documents. I only trust the Bible; And when I read the Bible, I do not see any of the five points of Calvinism within it. It's just not there.

As for Calvinism and salvation: Well, there are some in the Calvinistic camp who say that Calvinism is the gospel (of which of course I disagree with strongly).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Like I said before, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

While this may be true for you, what do you think of the verses I brought forth that defends Conditional Immortality?


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[Marvin Knox]

In my many years of discussing OSAS, I have never been heated enough to attack a person on a personal level and or to insult them. This in my opinion is not a loving characteristic of abidiing in Christ. Paul says let your speech always be filled with grace seasoned with salt (Colossians 4:6). My mention of such a thing is not to drag him down, but it is to get him to see his error so as to correct it so he can speak in a loving and good way even if his enemies were to spit venom at him. He should be calm and at peace even under great adversity. Every believer should not be overcome by evil, but they should be able to overcome evil with good. For believers are to pray for their enemies and to do good unto them. ....

This would ring more true if it were not for the fact that you constantly misrepresent others with whom you disagree concerning their beliefs.

But it doesn't surprise me that you don't see the log in your own eye - approaching perfection as you seem to think you are..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

OK, let's examine what Jesus did say about believers:

Jn 10:28,29
28 and I give eternal life to them,and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Could you point out the actual words that indicate that believers can lose eternal life? Please?

This is one of the most popular verses that OSAS proponents love to use. SO I have answered this passage many, many times over the years.

So what is the context of those sheep who cannot be plucked out his hand? Well, the context of the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out his hand are the type of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. The Scriptures here are not talking about sheep that are being dragged by their necks by leashes here. For if you were to look at verse 27 (that you did not quote) it says,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me:" (John 10:27).​

That is the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand.


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[nobdysfool]

I do not trust in man made historical documents. I only trust the Bible; And when I read the Bible, I do not see any of the five points of Calvinism within it. It's just not there.

It is there. But you have to let go of your preconceptions to see it. Preconceptions are what prevents you from learning, because you think you already know that. I came to embrace most of the 5 points throughmy own study. No man taught me. Later on, as I refined my understanding, there were points that I disagree with in part. One thing you apparently are not aware of, is that Calvin had nothing to do with the so-called 5 points. He was dead by that point.

As for Calvinism and salvation: Well, there are some in the Calvinistic camp who say that Calvinism is the gospel (of which of course I disagree with strongly).....

What is meant is that Calvinism offers support for the gospel. The one saying that are quoting Charles Spurgeon, who is considered by many (even outside Calvinism) to be the "Prince of Preachers".

 

[sdowney717]

Like I said before, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

Agree!
He also does not believe the scriptures.
On our being given a guarantee by God of eternal life is testified,

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

But he contradicts God saying God will unseal His sealing of believers, so that believers will go to hell fire.
And what about this being a purchased possession, what they teach is God sells believers back into sin and death.

All of this is against what Christ teaches, but of course being blinded in their minds by Satan, they will never know this truth unless God grants them to repentance so that they can come to their senses after being captured by Satan to do his will.
These sort deny our being called of God to be glorified and how we can not know Christ unless God and Christ choose to reveal themselves.
A man can receive nothing unless it is given to him from heaven, so then knowing God and Christ are irrevocable gifts.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

 

[GillDouglas]

I do not trust in man made historical documents. I only trust the Bible; And when I read the Bible, I do not see any of the five points of Calvinism within it. It's just not there.
As for Calvinism and salvation: Well, there are some in the Calvinistic camp who say that Calvinism is the gospel (of which of course I disagree with strongly).
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Calvinism is not the gospel. The five points of Calvinistic doctrine can be backed by Scripture, however. Just like any of the man made doctrines, creeds, etc. that you'll find most church goers subscribing to, the understandings behind Calvinism were gathered, discussed, tested and written down by believers past (not just one man, though one man is credited for it's title). I find it difficult to believe that you do not follow any idea or understanding of Scripture that wasn't already captured in this way by believers in the past.

 

[nobdysfool]

This is one of the most popular verses that OSAS proponents love to use. SO I have answered this passage many, many times over the years.

So what is the context of those sheep who cannot be plucked out his hand? Well, the context of the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out his hand are the type of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. The Scriptures here are not talking about sheep that are being dragged by their necks by leashes here. For if you were to look at verse 27 (that you did not quote) it says,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me:" (John 10:27).​

That is the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand.


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So once again you twist the scripture to make what Christ does into something WE do. How convenient, and how wrong...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This would ring more true if it were not for the fact that you constantly misrepresent others with whom you disagree concerning their beliefs.

But it doesn't surprise me that you don't see the log in your own eye - approaching perfection as you seem to think you are..

As I said to others before: Please provide post #'s to where you think I have falsely misrepresented someone's beliefs and I would be more than happy to apologize. Yes, I have later caught some people clarifying their beliefs, but I did not continue to push a false belief upon them once they clarified it. Granted, it is not wrong for me to point out how their belief is flawed or wrong. But this does not equate with me forcing them to believe something that they do not believe in. It is merely me telling them something that they cannot see about their belief in how I think it is wrong.

For example: I have confirmed with Gill that he believes that a believer will always have sin in their life but a true believer will not sin all the time but merely on occasion and he will confess such a sin. I asked him if this is what he believed and he said.... "correct" in reply. I then commented how this belief is flawed and gave my reasons for it. So of course Gill is not going to agree with my opinion on how I see his belief as being wrong or immoral, anymore than you would see my belief as being correct, either. For many here have said Sinless Perfectionism is heresy. I believe that is a misrepresentation of what the Bible says. But another person expressing their opinion against SInless Perfectionism does not equate with them misrepresnting in what I believe about it. They are merely stating an opinion as to why they disagree with my belief.


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[Bible Highlighter]

So once again you twist the scripture to make what Christ does into something WE do. How convenient, and how wrong...

Actually, I believe Christ ultimately does the work in a believer's life once they submitted to Him. So no. I do not believe I can take the credit or pat myself on the back or anything.

For why did the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus?
Well, because Christ was working within them (of course).

For me to live is Christ.
And to die is gain.



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