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Marvins' story, Marvin's rules, Marvin's the one you want to talk to about it. My issue is you trying to change the rules, other wise, not my circus, not my monkeys....
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My natural reply to your post would be something like, "What a complete idiot!"
It was just a parable that I came up with because Jason insisted on having one. You know - a "parable" - something to lay along side of and parallel to a real teaching that will help in a worldly way to illustrate spiritual truth.
But being the patient man that I am and being willing to play along with you, at least for this one post - I'll try to answer as best I can. Not that you asked in the right spirit or that you really wanted to know the answers.
The orphanage would be this lost, cursed, Satan controlled world which we all needed to be rescued from.
The boy's new identify is the equivalent of a new nature.
If the adopted boy would not stop his activities, the father would have determined that he be turned over to the world "for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" - to coin an appropriate parallel phrase from the scriptures.
In keeping with the spiritual truths that Jason was really asking for illustration of with the parable - no one has ever tried to kill the Father that I know of. Therefore what you asked is not a relevant illustration of truth.
If you continue to push this silliness as far as I believe you are capable of judging from past contact with you - I may revert to my natural impulses and say something like, "What a complete idiot."
Hopefully you'll just let it go and it won't come to that - since I went to the trouble of explaining things to you in spite of the silliness of your questions.
By the way - "adoption" is completely relevant to the discussion. Read your Bible.
And I have already showed you WHY Jesus taught in parables. It was for those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.A real world example is what Jesus made many times thru out the Scriptures to illustrate spiritual truth to people. For what was true in the real world also held true for the spiritual world. For even the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon what Jesus said involving a real world example; And Jesus accepted her example back because it was an example based on a truth in the real world.
As for my pushing for folks to make a real world example being a weakness in the defense of my position: On the contrary, folks failure to provide such a simple example only proves that their belief is not what it really claims to be.....
What an odd question. You're the one asking for a parable, by your request of "real world examples" and then equating that to the parables that Jesus taught.Where does the Bible tell us to make parables to determine the truth?
Where did the woman use any parables? She didn't. And I've already told you WHY Jesus taught in parables. It was for those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.Well, the Canaanite woman expounded upon what Jesus said with an example of her own and Jesus accepted it. For the truth she illustrated was in line with the real world. Also, we are to be Christ's example, too. We are to walk as he had walked. So if Jesus told parables, it is only logical that we can do the same thing.....
Please support your view that 1 Jn 5:16 is a reference to spiritual death and not physical death as a discipline from God. I can show you many verses that provide a REAL WORLD EXAMPLE of believers who physically died as a result of specific sins.And this would be a false claim because I believe a saint can still be saved despite them having sins in their life that do not lead unto spiritual death.
Where do you get this stuff?A Biblical example of a sin that does not lead unto spiritual death would be a believer who died who chose not to be baptized.
The context for 1:8 is what preceded v.8. And the subject is about FELLOWSHIP, which is a doctrine you've not indicated any familiarity with.The context of 1 John 1:8 is in view of sins that lead unto spiritual death (like murder, hate, theft, etc.) whereby they would need to be confessed so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9).
This opinion cannot be supported from the context. It is very straight forward and refers to those who believe in sinless perfection.1 John 1:8 is talking about those who deny the very existence of sin itself on some level.
OK. And let's let 1 Jn 1:8 describe such people: self deceived and the truth is not in them.Christian Scientists do not believe in sin, evil, or the devil.
Can you support your notion of "sin on a spiritual level"? What does that even mean? And how does one "sin spiritually" anyway?Antinomians believe that they sin physically, but they do not have any sin on a spiritual level because Jesus paid the price for their present and future sin.
You have been self deceived and the truth is not in you according to 1 Jn 1:8 and your belief in sinless perfection.That is what 1 John 1:8 is actually talking about. For there is no verse (besides a wrong interpreation of 1 John 1:10) that supports the view that John was teaching against Sinless Perfectionism in his epistle....
It doesn't matter if you believe me or not. It is still the truth. My belief has not changed in regards 1 John 1:8. I still believe 1 John 1:8 is saying that a person is denying the existence of sin or they are denying the punishment of sin in some way. I am merely saying that from my opponents perspective or view on 1 John 1:8, they are still wrong. Again, this is not a new revelation for me. I have said this same exact discussion before a long time ago on another forum.....
I would disagree with you on this one EmSw. There is a limit to how 'deep' a sinner can go. God is active in this world, and does not sit idly by while men go about sinning. Common Grace keeps sin in check, and until an unbeliever dies, he is not completely swallowed up by it.Interesting Marvin. So I take a rescued orphan can never get deeper in more evil sins. I find that in the real world, if a person remains in his sins without remorse, they tend to go deeper in sin.
And I have already showed you WHY Jesus taught in parables. It was for those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.
Apparently that's why you want a parable, huh.
When Jesus was alone with His disciples, He taught them clearly and explained what the parables meant.
Anyhow, you've been given clear examples from Scripture, which are real world examples, that support eternal security, and refute your views.
But Scripture has no place for those whose ears and eyes are closed, as Jesus pointed out.
I would disagree with you on this one EmSw. There is a limit to how 'deep' a sinner can go. God is active in this world, and does not sit idly by while men go about sinning. Common Grace keeps sin in check, and until an unbeliever dies, he is not completely swallowed up by it.
Please take a step back and look at how you speak to others here. Can you honestly expect me and others to believe that your words here are filled with the love of God? For I find your words to be very insulting towards me. You also appear to be attacking me on a personal level as if it is some kind of attack against me as a person. We are here to discuss the Bible and not to insult one another. So I would ask you kindly to stick to the Scriptures instead of making insulting observations.And I'll bet you didn't get much traction that time, either. And you continue to tell falsehoods about what we believe, and once again demonstrate your ignorance of Reformed Theology. Your "truth" is supported by and based on falsehoods, which means that it cannot possibly be real truth. Real truth contains no falsehood.
From a human perspective, certainly these people would be considered the most evil of evil. However, if you agree with Jason (on this one point we agree) who said a sin against God is a sin, the same offense, no matter how big or small. No one in this life is so far gone that they cannot be saved from their sin, if God will's.Are you familiar with Hitler, Stalin, and Moa Tse-tung? Have you ever read about ISIS? Are these not worse than stealing parent's money?
We've all become a bit heated in our discussions about our understanding of Scripture, specifically in regards to our salvation and how a believer should live. We each are frustrated at the other who just "doesn't get it" when we explain why we believe what we do, and we don't agree. Some have a longer fuse than the other, but each and everyone of us has retaliated in some form or fashion either directly or subtly indirectly. Our bickering back and forth will do little to change the opinions of those strong in faith and personal belief. The log in my own eye is greater than the speck in yours, and sometimes things are better left unsaid. At the same time your effort to point out the faults of others only perpetuates the battle. Rather than creating and expounding upon these posts about why the other camp is all wrong, unbiblical, etc. (in this case, it was directed at mine), we should be lifting each other up, and doing all things to glorify God. Though these discussions do sharpen our individual beliefs and may persuade a few, does the hurtful bickering glorify Him?Please take a step back and look at how you speak to others here. Can you honestly expect me and others to believe that your words here are filled with the love of God? For I find your words to be very insulting towards me. You also appear to be attacking me on a personal level as if it is some kind of attack against me as a person. We are here to discuss the Bible and not to insult one another. So I would ask you kindly to stick to the Scriptures instead of making insulting observations.
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I agree that God can save people who have done some really horrible and evil things. Paul used to persecute and have Christians executed and yet he turned out to be a great man of God later of whom the Lord had used as a vessel to write the majority of the New Testament.From a human perspective, certainly these people would be considered the most evil of evil. However, if you agree with Jason (on this one point we agree) who said a sin against God is a sin, the same offense, no matter how big or small. No one in this life is so far gone that they cannot be saved from their sin, if God will's.
It seems you've changed your stance on sin, and given it levels of severity. I would disagree, and there is no difference. Any sin (small or large, regardless of what it is) breaks both the first and the greatest commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart". However, all sin is forgiven by the saving work of Christ on the Cross. Through His blood we are redeemed!I agree that God can save people who have done some really horrible and evil things. Paul used to persecute and have Christians executed and yet he turned out to be a great man of God later of whom the Lord had used as a vessel to write the majority of the New Testament.
However, when I said that one sin is no different than another sin in my previous post to you, I had essentially said to you that this was in context to the type of sins that lead unto spiritual death. Such sins would be murder, hate, theft, drunkeness, lying, adultery, and idolatry. These types of sins if they are not confessed and forsaken can lead a person to face the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire.
So I was talking about "sins that lead unto spiritual death."
But I was not referring to ALL sin. For not all sin is the same.
For even Jesus himself said, that one can be guilty of a GREATER sin (John 19:11).
So we know not all sin is the same.
There are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). A biblical example would be a believer breaking the Command to be baptized in this life. For Peter makes it clear that baptism is not done for salvation or for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) (1 Peter 3:21) (cross reference the words "filth of the flesh" with 2 Corinthians 7:1). Sins that do not lead unto death are hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). This could be the type of sins like going over the speed limit a little. It could be the type of sin in not going the extra mile at your job so as to not be a good example for Christ so as to obey the Command from Jesus that says:
"Let your light so shine before men [i.e. Christ's light], that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).
There are also sins that cannot be forgiven, too.
1. Suicide (where a person stays dead) is a sin that cannot be forgiven.
2. Taking the Mark of the Beast is to drink of the Wrath of God and cannot be forgiven, too.
3. Speaking bad against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.
4. Rejecting Christ as one's savior after one has been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gifts, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven.
God has also been known to strike dead immediately for those commiting certain sins, as well. Ananais and Saphirra were struck dead for lying to the Holy Ghost. Great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about this. Now, you probably believe they were saved. But if such were the case, then it does not make any sense for people to be in fear of God over two people who are now in the comfort of Heaven with their Lord. For to live is Christ and to die is gain. Believers are told by Jesus not to fear death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
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We've all become a bit heated in our discussions about our understanding of Scripture, specifically in regards to our salvation and how a believer should live. We each are frustrated at the other who just "doesn't get it" when we explain why we believe what we do, and we don't agree. Some have a longer fuse than the other, but each and everyone of us has retaliated in some form or fashion either directly or subtly indirectly. Our bickering back and forth will do little to change the opinions of those strong in faith and personal belief. The log in my own eye is greater than your speck in yours, and sometimes things are better left unsaid. At the same time your effort to point out the faults of others only perpetuates the battle. Rather than creating and expounding upon these posts about why the other camp is all wrong, unbiblical, etc. (in this case, it was directed at mine), we should be lifting each other up, and doing all things to glorify God. Though these discussions do sharpen our individual beliefs and may persuade a few, does the hurtful bickering glorify Him?
It seems you've changed your stance on sin, and given it levels of severity. I would disagree, and there is no difference. Any sin (small or large, regardless of what it is) breaks both the first and the greatest commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart". However, all sin is forgiven by the saving work of Christ on the Cross. Through His blood we are redeemed!
But who are we to judge our fellow man? Also, you are not being honest here about your level of participation in the attacks/insults against the other party. It has been pointed out to you by myself and others that you have done the same as all the rest of us. Whether you meant to or not is irrelevant when the perceived consequences dictate otherwise. Do not elevate yourself above your brothers. The meek shall inherit, not the proud.In my many years of discussing OSAS, I have never been heated enough to attack a person on a personal level and or to insult them. This in my opinion is not a loving characteristic of abidiing in Christ. Paul says let your speech always be filled with grace seasoned with salt (Colossians 4:6). My mention of such a thing is not to drag him down, but it is to get him to see his error so as to correct it so he can speak in a loving and good way even if his enemies were to spit venom at him. He should be calm and at peace even under great adversity. Every believer should not be overcome by evil, but they should be able to overcome evil with good. For believers are to pray for their enemies and to do good unto them.
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But who are we to judge our fellow man? Also, you are not being honest here about your level of participation in the attacks/insults against the other party. It has been pointed out to you by myself and others that you have done the same as all the rest of us. Whether you meant to or not is irrelevant when the perceived consequences dictate otherwise. Do not elevate yourself above your brothers. The meek shall inherit, not the proud.
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