How quickly people move on from the topics they do not wish to prove, such as how one remains sinless.
Especially with pride, lack of humility and unclean thoughts being sin.
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What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.
Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used.
You prove me wrong since the word 'grace' is used in God's Word much more than once in Acts 18:27.Grace is NOT unmerited favor. Grace is "the divine influence in the heart." See Strong's.
"He helped them much which THROUGH GRACE had believed." Acts 18:27
As being faith-ful would seem to indicate it is about maintaining and growing in your faith. This involves trusting God (not doubting Him or His love or His existance) when someone is in deep dispair and their lives are not going right. This includes valuing what we have in Christ (forgiveness of sin, eternal life. the Holy Spirit). Following the Holy Spirit as He teaches us. Staying in prayer and growing our relationship with God and not letting it grow stagnant.
I disagree with you that faithful believers are considered by God to be those who obey God's commands.
Also, God does care more about us loving others. Humbling ourselves as servants of Christ for the cause of another or for Christ. Developing compassion.
I don't know where you get your definition of faithfulness from, have you got scripture?
I read it and the verse says nothing about how faithful is defined which is what you have given as a proof text.Then you need to re-read 1 John 2:3-4 a little more closely.
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What question are you asking me to answer?
I read it and the verse says nothing about how faithful is defined which is what you have given as a proof text.
So, what's your point?
Why don't you list the verse completely and then point out what your point is from the verse. I think that would be a better way to communicate your point. Then you could clearly reference the scripture in the places that prove your point.
Wrong. The use of "brothers" was used to refer to fellow Jews many times.Brothers are believers, right?
So they aren't synonymous.So they are synomous with saying the same thing.
The ONLY meaning for "believer" in the Bible is those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life. No other way. People either believe that, or they do not. Those who do are believers. Those who don't are not believers.The Bible clearly describes that there are those who preach another Jesus or another gospel.
I've proven otherwise. And why didn't you answer my questions? This will be the 3rd time I've posted them:Not true. Sinless Perfectionism is taught in the Bible. I have already provided verses of which you did not explain from your point of view.
I don't recall any verses addressed to me. I don't follow all the posts you have with others.Why did you not explain the verses that I put forth?
OK, please provide any verse that teaches that those who refuse to repent or confess sin, they forfeit their salvation. I DARE you.A believer is given eternal life as soon as they believe (John 1:12-13).
Granted, this does not count if they are receiving another Jesus or another gospel.
A person has to accept Jesus Christ as described in the Bible.
For example: If a person receives Jesus thinking they can sin and still be saved, they are receiving a false Christ.
Another example would be if a person receives Jesus thinking that He is not God but merely a man.
Anyways, if a person genuinely accepts Christ, then they will continue to abide in Christ who is the source of their eternal life. If the believer sins, and they refuse to repent or confess of such a sin, then they will forfeit their salvation.
The verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very specific and cannot be committed today. It was only an issue during the time that Jesus was on earth during His ministry. Just read the whole context and it will be obvious.It depends on the type of sin.
There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).
If a believer speaks bad against the Holy Spirit, they can never be forgiven of such a sin.
If a believer in the future takes the mark of the beast, they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
If a believer commits suicide and stays dead, they will be judged amongst the wicked.
The issue of the "sin unto death" is about God's discipline for the believer who lives an unrepentant lifestyle. The discipline is physical death and subsequent loss of reward in heaven. The Bible gives us examples of such discipline: 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 5, Acts 5. And let's not forget King Saul, whom God killed (1 Chron 10:14) but joined Samuel in Paradise after he died (2 Sam 28:19).These would be sins that would lead unto death.
However, there are other sins that lead unto death (i.e. sins that have dire after-life consequences to a believer's soul) that can be forgiven if they confess of such sin, though. Paul lists these sins several times in the New Testament. Such sins that can be forgiven are murder, hate, adultery, drunkenness, theft, and idolatry, etc. John says these types of sins will lead one to experience the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
There are NO verses that speak of spiritual death for any believer. Why not? Because believers have ETERNAL LIFE. Such life CANNOT be killed, or die. So for those who have been given ETERNAL LIFE, they CANNOT experience spiritual death.If a believer sins a type of sin that leads unto spiritual death (that can be forgiven), they are to confess of that sin in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9).
So you disagree with the acronym:Grace is NOT unmerited favor. Grace is "the divine influence in the heart." See Strong's.
"He helped them much which THROUGH GRACE had believed." Acts 18:27
How quickly people who can't defend their own opinions and assumptions ignore challenges to prove their position.
How quickly people move on from the topics they do not wish to prove, such as how one remains sinless.
Why do you think ANY of these verses are about believers who are out of fellowship?Oh, and a believer cannot be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved.
In fact, here are several verses that tell us this fact.
#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.
#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).
#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).
#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.
#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.....
Wrong. The use of "brothers" was used to refer to fellow Jews many times.
So they aren't synonymous.
The ONLY meaning for "believer" in the Bible is those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life. No other way. People either believe that, or they do not. Those who do are believers. Those who don't are not believers.
But there are some who only pretended to be believers, as I have already shown from Scripture.
I've proven otherwise. And why didn't you answer my questions?
This will be the 3rd time I've posted them:
Regarding sinless perfection:
1. When does one achieve it? When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?
2. Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?
3. If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?
4. If so, what must they do for that to occur?
I don't recall any verses addressed to me. I don't follow all the posts you have with others.
What verses teach sinless perfection?
But it doesn't matter, because I've proven from Romans that all sin.
OK, please provide any verse that teaches that those who refuse to repent or confess sin, they forfeit their salvation. I DARE you.
The verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very specific and cannot be committed today. It was only an issue during the time that Jesus was on earth during His ministry. Just read the whole context and it will be obvious.
There is no indication that believers will take the mark of the beast. So this opinion is just another assumption.
There are no verses about suicide forfeiting salvation.
The issue of the "sin unto death" is about God's discipline for the believer who lives an unrepentant lifestyle.
The discipline is physical death and subsequent loss of reward in heaven. The Bible gives us examples of such discipline: 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 5, Acts 5. And let's not forget King Saul, whom God killed (1 Chron 10:14) but joined Samuel in Paradise after he died (2 Sam 28:19).
There are NO verses that speak of spiritual death for any believer. Why not? Because believers have ETERNAL LIFE. Such life CANNOT be killed, or die. So for those who have been given ETERNAL LIFE, they CANNOT experience spiritual death.
Or God's Word lies. Which I absolutely reject. And that is the main problem with all who think salvation can be lost. They have to ignore or reject the FACT that ETERNAL life is just that; eternal. It goes on forever. Therefore, it cannot die.
Also, eternal life is a gift of God, according to Rom 6:23.
And the gifts of God are irrevocable, according to Rom 11:29.
Your views regarding the Bible are quite confused. Amazingly so.
For all who think they have or can achieve sinless perfection:
"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8
This verse is not referring to any unbelievers, but obviously believers.
Therefore, any believer who says they have no sin, has deceived himself and the truth is not in him. (are you listening, Jason?)
Which is why John wrote the NEXT VERSE:
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Considering the context of ch 1 of 1 John, which is fellowship with God and Christ, confession is the solution to cleansing from sins.
But even if a believer doesn't confess sins, they lose, not relationship, which is permanent, but they lose fellowship with God and Christ.
Believers who are out of fellowship will miss out on God's blessings during their lifetime.
Fruit production will occur only when the believer is in fellowship, or "abiding in Christ".
Why do you think ANY of these verses are about believers who are out of fellowship?
#1 is about those who have believed. They HAVE eternal life.
#2 contains a false conclusion. Knowing does NOT imply fellowship. Married couples know each other and may be totally out of fellowship.
#3 refers to anyone who hasn't believed in Christ for salvation.
#4 the word "destroy" refers to physical death, which is what happened to King Saul. 1 Chron 10:14, 2 Sam 28:19
#5 uses an agricultural metaphor which is related to being useful for producing fruit. iow, those who don't abide in Christ (fellowship), God cannot use to produce fruit and will not be used by God for fruit production. Nothing about eternal death here at all.
#6 nothing here about loss of salvation. We know from v.9 that confession cleanses us from sin, and restores/maintains fellowship.
#7 another agricultural metaphor about either being used by God for fruit production or not being used by God. And eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23, and the gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
You said that being faithful is defined by obedience and you gave 1 John 2:3-4 as proof text.1 John 2:3-4,
3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
This is passage is pretty straight forward in what it says (Especially in light of the rest of the Scriptures).
Verse 3 says we can have an assurance in knowing Christ if we keep His Commandments.
Verse 4 says that those who say they keep his commandments and say they know Him is a liar and the truth is not in them. Scripture says, Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus is the truth that needs to be in a person so as to be saved. Their keeping of God's Commandments is the proof in the pudding that Christ (God) lives within them.
Claiming to say you keep His Commands and say you know Him is equated with lying. There is no truth or salvation in lying. For Scriptures says, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
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Well, expressing that you disagree does not mean you are right. I have explained what the verses said and tied it in with the rest of Scripture. The challenge you have to prove to me is that it is not talking about salvation. Please take note that a person is called a liar and the truth is not in them if they do not keep his commandments and they say that they know him. Do you not know that Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire? Can a believer be saved without the truth in them? Is not Jesus the Truth?You said that being faithful is defined by obedience and you gave 1 John 2:3-4 as proof text.
That does not prove that God determines if one is faithful solely on obedience.
Nor does this prove that to be faithful one does not sin. Salvation cannot be lost because of a lie. Please use verses WITHIN CONTEXT.
Jesus died to forgive sin. So please stop using verses out of context and confusing believers with non-believers and those who do not have Jesus as their Advocate to the Father for sin.
Why should I have to prove that your proof text about obedience is talking about salvation? It was your proof text that you said proved faithfulness is by obedience, which was never part of your proof text anyways. See post #2176. I'm not writing it out for you twice.Well, expressing that you disagree does not mean you are right. I have explained what the verses said and tied it in with the rest of Scripture. The challenge you have to prove to me is that it is not talking about salvation. Please take note that a person is called a liar and the truth is not in them if they do not keep his commandments and they say that they know him. Do you not know that Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire? Can a believer be saved without the truth in them? Is not Jesus the Truth?
Also, can you provide for me a real world example out of what you believe?
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Why should I have to prove that your proof text about obedience is talking about salvation? It was your proof text that you said proved faithfulness is by obedience, which was never part of your proof text anyways. See post #2176. I'm not writing it out for you twice.
You make me lol
I was agreeing with you.I said this:
"What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.
Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used."
How quickly people who can't defend their own opinions and assumptions ignore challenges to prove their position.
Paul spoke in the present tense in Romans 7, where he described his struggle with his own sin nature. I recommend that you read it.
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