Logical Problem with Predestination

[simonthezealot]

I have not read all the posts on here but I have been scanning threads on the elect and predestination and I will share my thoughts even though I am not a very intelligent person or a theologian.

First thing that screamed inside of my head was "Are you serious! God is not a movie producer in that we are his puppets and that he already knew who he was going to pick for the star roles " That would negate love.
As far as I'm concerned the elect is the whole human race and we get to chose...some will want everything God has to offer because who God is bears witness to what is deeply within us and we desire all that God is because we have chosen what is most important for our soul. Love is what is the heart of us all....even the wicked crave love. I'll stop there because the rest is all about us listening to God calling us...and if we really want him to be our Lord and Savior we will be still and listen for his voice. and if we look at creation we will see that even parents want their children s love as they have loved their children before the child was even born.
But all in all...if we don't chose God...then we know beyond a shadow of a doubt...that it was our choice.

Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
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Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

[TamaraLynne]

Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
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Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

I read what was before and after that verse and it almost had a poetic sound to it about those who feet run to evil whether it be Jew or Gentile. And the further I read it is about Gods love for us and what he has set in place with the new covenant but the law is not made void because first we have to see that we are sinners.

Everything points to our hearts and Gods heart

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I read what was before and after that verse and it almost had a poetic sound to it about those who feet run to evil whether it be Jew or Gentile. And the further I read it is about Gods love for us and what he has set in place with the new covenant but the law is not made void because first we have to see that we are sinners.

Everything points to our hearts and Gods heart

Yes, but who makes our hearts love? God. Why? Because he loves us. God predestines people to salvation because he is love, and he loves us, and in so doing brings about love in us. Predestination is God's love.

 

[seeingeyes]

Absotively posilutely. Most people have never read the bible.
I used to imagine myself at those gates & Peter saying to me,"Did you even READ the book?" So I set out to read it cover-to-cover ten times just so I could reply, "I read it TEN TIMES! What did I miss?" I only made it to seven times, tho.

The scribes and Pharisees no doubt had most of the Scriptures memorized, yet they completely missed the Messiah standing in front of them. I see no reason to believe that couldn't happen to me. On the contrary, that's exactly where I've been.

Major truth, that. When I was fighting depression at 15, I realized hard labor toward another person or other people's good immediately lifted my depression. I could cover my butt, but not for long. It would be a no-rest-for-the-wicked situation.

Amen.

Right. I get fear & loathing type responses: If we're predestined then it doesn't matter ,so why preach? Why not sin freely? It's like they have no concept of being motivated by gratitude.

Yes. And the corollary to this is: If there is no hell, why bother being a Christian? (This has come out of my own mouth. Lord have mercy.)

The antidote to such thinking is either to insist on our own assurance of grace, which we get by looking straight at our Father, who loves us (and then have to defend this view Scripturally against all comers), or to give over to benign indifference about our own 'end', which we get by looking straight at our Father, who loves us (and never having to defend this view because folks think your nuts).

The latter is less work for me.

First, to dispense with semantic ambiguity, God is omnipresent, so He is always "with" us in that sense, but not with us in the sense of being "on our side".

Well, Christ puts a hole in this, though. (He is always making a mess.) He said that the greatest love lays down it's life for a friend, and then he went and died for sinners, all the while saying that if you've seen him, you've seen the Father.

Perhaps God is 'with' us in that sense whether we like it or not.

And as for "death"... we are physicaly born spiritualy dead as Adam became in the same day he sinned. We have a soul that animates the body and developes personality & intellect, but until the moment we are regenerated (born again - spiritualy), we are as good as dead.
I think I remember the moment it happened to me.

My purpose was to question whether God treats us differently when we are physically dead than when we are physically alive.

That's a whole new thread on it's own there, though. We'd better save that discussion since I'm barely on topic as it is!

 

[simonthezealot]

Okay let me pose a question to you, show me in the bible this thing you seem to be eluding to, which is that some men naturally desire God.
Let's start there, if we can clear up this false presupposition then i'll approach your insinuation of puppetry.

 

[TamaraLynne]

Yes, but who makes our hearts love? God. Why? Because he loves us. God predestines people to salvation because he is love, and he loves us, and in so doing brings about love in us. Predestination is God's love.

When I read what you wrote I thought about before Adam and Eve...and thought about all of us in Gods hands before we were placed on the earth and I thought about God making a vow of love and how he was destined to love us forever. Oh how his heart aches when we don't chose him.

Yes that is what I saw when i read what you wrote

 

[TamaraLynne]

Okay let me pose a question to you, show me in the bible this thing you seem to be eluding to, which is that some men naturally desire God.
Let's start there, if we can clear up this false presupposition then i'll approach your insinuation of puppetry.

seriously

Look at how many here seek and thirst and are hungry for the things of God. How many in the Bible ran after God?

 

[TamaraLynne]

We were created by God and God breathed into us....we are the children of God. Now freewill to chose to be loved by God and to love God is ours...

 

[simonthezealot]

seriously

Look at how many here seek and thirst and are hungry for the things of God. How many in the Bible ran after God?

men naturally seeking after false teaching and false religion is not man NATURALLY seeking after God. As I mentioned show me from scripture that NATURAL man seeks after God. IOW what i'm saying is...
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians 2a

If you can show me that man w/o the spirit naturally desire God somewhere in scripture that would be a good start.

 

[simonthezealot]

We were created by God and God breathed into us....we are the children of God. Now freewill to chose to be loved by God and to love God is ours...

Only regenerate believers are the children of God...
See the contrast in these scriptures...
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

 

[simonthezealot]

Lean not on your own understanding, God's word is clear on these topics...Man's prideful way is to tend toward their understanding, NOT the Lord's shown in scripture.

 

[Albion]

Okay let me pose a question to you, show me in the bible this thing you seem to be eluding to, which is that some men naturally desire God.
Let's start there, if we can clear up this false presupposition then i'll approach your insinuation of puppetry.

I believe there is a natural inclination of men to seek a higher power. Problem is, that doesn't do much for them. It says nothing about the nature of sin, who is God, how he relates to men, or anything about eternal rewards and punishments, etc, etc. Natural religion is no substitute for revealed religion, IOW.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=TamaraLynne; We were created by God and God breathed into us....we are the children of God. Now freewill to chose to be loved by God and to love God is ours...

What is the will free of?

 

[TamaraLynne]

men naturally seeking after false teaching and false religion is not man NATURALLY seeking after God. As I mentioned show me from scripture that NATURAL man seeks after God. IOW what i'm saying is...
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians 2a

If you can show me that man w/o the spirit naturally desire God somewhere in scripture that would be a good start.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

God said also that we are to ask for the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher and shows us many things.

This naturally thing is getting kinda weird in that it has the same feel as "I was born gay" and no way to prove it...

All I know is God said "ALL" will be drawn

 

[simonthezealot]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

God said also that we are to ask for the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher and shows us many things.

This naturally thing is getting kinda weird in that it has the same feel as "I was born gay" and no way to prove it...

All I know is God said "ALL" will be drawn

The scripture you used proved my point...We don't draw ourselves to God..He draws us.

And no the natural thing is not like a gay thing, scripture says none seek after God, scripture also says The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God.

the HS teaches the believers, "darkness can not dwell in light"

 

[simonthezealot]

Man is spiritually impotent prior to God's regenerating grace in us.
You'll find no scripture to suggest otherwise, only vain philosophies can get us otherwise to that point.

 

[Rick Otto]

1Cor 2:14:But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sometimes "all men" means every kind of man (gentile as well as jew), not each one.

 

[TamaraLynne]

The scripture you used proved my point...We don't draw ourselves to God..He draws us.

And no the natural thing is not like a gay thing, scripture says none seek after God, scripture also says The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God.

the HS teaches the believers, "darkness can not dwell in light"

Adam and Eve were without sin in the beginning and that was natural or the way it was intended. Sin separated us from God but we were not abandoned.(Adam and Eve tried to hide and were ashamed...but in the beginning before sin they were drawn to God...they did not hide or run.) The new covenant is Gods way of getting it back to what was natural right from the beginning. All I know is God does not want not one person to perish but for all to have everlasting life and that is why he draws all men unto himself.I do not know what Calvinist believe but I have heard others talk of predestination and they get angry at God like God predestined some to go to hell..my oldest son was very passionate and angry at God when he heard that. So maybe it is what has been talked about by others and their definition of predestination that got me on a roll.

Sorry about the comment on gays being born that way...it just felt like an autopsy of the flesh to determine spiritual things but I'm sure that was not your intention as far as our DNA is concerned...please forgive me.

 

[simonthezealot]

1Cor 2:14:But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sometimes "all men" means every kind of man (gentile as well as jew), not each one.

Right. The all are simply all those the Father gave to Him.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

 

[simonthezealot]

Adam and Eve were without sin in the beginning and that was natural or the way it was intended. Sin separated us from God but we were not abandoned.(Adam and Eve tried to hide and were ashamed...but in the beginning before sin they were drawn to God...they did not hide or run.) The new covenant is Gods way of getting it back to what was natural right from the beginning. All I know is God does not want not one person to perish but for all to have everlasting life and that is why he draws all men unto himself.I do not know what Calvinist believe but I have heard others talk of predestination and they get angry at God like God predestined some to go to hell..my oldest son was very passionate and angry at God when he heard that. So maybe it is what has been talked about by others and their definition of predestination that got me on a roll.

Sorry about the comment on gays being born that way...it just felt like an autopsy of the flesh to determine spiritual things but I'm sure that was not your intention as far as our DNA is concerned...please forgive me.

Our actions, all human race are worthy of hell, the question is why is God who is so beautifully merciful that He would even save any of us...None deserve it.