Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and

[romanov]

The answer is to run or die. That is it. I am sorry. Now is a good time to start reading the scripture.

Matt 10

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30: But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31: Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Rev 20

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, you would leave your children to Islamofacist. The New Testament tells us it is a sin to abandon our responsiblity to our familys.

 

[applepowerpc]

And you would leave your children to Judeofascism?

 

[gwynedd1]

So, you would leave your children to Islamofacist. The New Testament tells us it is a sin to abandon our responsiblity to our familys.

Anytime I see "Christian" retaliation , I notice that more families are destroyed. Please do not tell me what the scripture says anymore without the references. Thanks .
At such times all peaceful measure are exhausted , and if there is opportunity to prevent the comission of a crime then there is room for debate. However I see few if any Islamic states where this is the issue. What I do see is "Christian" minorities responding aggressively(protecting their families?) and inviting a violent response that kills their family friends and pets.

 

[ElenaS]

Not in reply to anyone in particular, but people here need to learn that there is a difference between Arab and Muslim. One can be an Arab and be Muslim or one can be Arab and Christian (as are more than a third of the Lebanese people) or whatever else for that matter.
Also, it would be a benefit for all parties to read and watch news from not just one country as a source. Every coutry's news is biased to some degree so it could add a degree of understanding if everyone took the time to open their eyes a little more. Meaning people extremely pro-Isreal should take the time to read non-US or Isreali publications and those against what Isreal is doing should take the time to read some information from the Isreali point of view.
I myself think that although Isreal has the right to defend itself, this war has done little to help that goal. Sure, they took out some Hezbollah bases, fighters, and positions, but in doing so much damage to Lebanon's infrastructure and its civillian people (all of whom are not Muslims, despite what you would get if you read only US news) it has sown the seeds for a new generation of hatred toward Isreal and I'm not sure what Isreal can really do to counter that.

 

[romanov]

Not in reply to anyone in particular, but people here need to learn that there is a difference between Arab and Muslim. One can be an Arab and be Muslim or one can be Arab and Christian (as are more than a third of the Lebanese people) or whatever else for that matter.
Also, it would be a benefit for all parties to read and watch news from not just one country as a source. Every coutry's news is biased to some degree so it could add a degree of understanding if everyone took the time to open their eyes a little more. Meaning people extremely pro-Isreal should take the time to read non-US or Isreali publications and those against what Isreal is doing should take the time to read some information from the Isreali point of view.
I myself think that although Isreal has the right to defend itself, this war has done little to help that goal. Sure, they took out some Hezbollah bases, fighters, and positions, but in doing so much damage to Lebanon's infrastructure and its civillian people (all of whom are not Muslims, despite what you would get if you read only US news) it has sown the seeds for a new generation of hatred toward Isreal and I'm not sure what Isreal can really do to counter that.

Nothing ever. They are like the US in the eyes of the world. If we take a stand, we are jerks. If we do not take a stand, we are jerks. If we embargo, we are jerks. If we do not.. you get the picture.

 

[Torah]

Wednesday, August 16 2006

Who Will Disarm Hezbollah?

The Jerusalem Post reports that the Lebanese government reached a deal with Hezbollah. Lebanon won't disarm Hezbollah as long as the terror organization's weapons aren't publicly displayed. The Post goes on to write that international peacekeepers -- if any arrive -- won't be responsible for disarming Hezbollah either:

Annan angered Israeli officials when he told Channel 2 on Tuesday that "dismantling Hizbullah is not the direct mandate of the UN," which could only help Lebanon disarm the organization. Annan upset officials further when he said that deploying international forces in Lebanon would take "weeks or months," and not days as expected.​

Israel warned that it will resume hostilities if Hezbollah isn't disarmed. Should it come to that, could the world condemn Israel for enforcing UN Security Council resolution 1701 when nobody else would?

 

[Treppers]

I will deal with this later also, and, if I might be permitted to say, talking about compliance with UN resolutions and Israel in the same sentence is dangerous ground for the Israel apologist. Afterall, we've been waiting nigh on 40 years for Israel to obey resolution 242, that is to get back behind its pre-June 1967 borders and stay there. There are literally dozens of other resolutions which have been passed condeming Israeli actions and which Israel has brazenly ignored. This is aside from the dozens more which would have condemed Israeli actions which the US vetoed.

I'll start taking seriously Israeli objections to non-compliance with resolutions when it starts to comply with them.

 

[ContraMundum]

I will deal with this later also, and, if I might be permitted to say, talking about compliance with UN resolutions and Israel in the same sentence is dangerous ground for the Israel apologist. Afterall, we've been waiting nigh on 40 years for Israel to obey resolution 242, that is to get back behind its pre-June 1967 borders and stay there. There are literally dozens of other resolutions which have been passed condeming Israeli actions and which Israel has brazenly ignored. This is aside from the dozens more which would have condemed Israeli actions which the US vetoed.

I'll start taking seriously Israeli objections to non-compliance with resolutions when it starts to comply with them.

Don't you think you're just using old and worn anti-Israeli information to excuse the current actions of her enemies and allow those enemies to shirk their own responsibilities to peace in the region? By taking an attitude that says no one should comply to the UN resolutions until Israel does is really very shortsighted and smacks of playground politics more than the political situation of life on the ground in the Middle East.

It looks to me like you won't give Israel a chance, just like everyone else who hates her existance and right to peace. You have no idea what it's like to live in a world where no matter what you do- someone will hate you for it. That's Israel. They give up Gaza, and rockets come from there and hit innocent people. They give up the West Bank, and they are accused of being "occupiers". They retaliate, as they should, and they are "in the wrong" and "aggressors". It's a no win world for them and you appear to like it that way. I don't. As one prominent jounralist in Australia said- "This six million ain't going no where".

You're arguments have proven to be really shallow and naive in many posts. If you think Israel should comply with UN resolutions that favour those who want her destruction, then you're living in a dream world. No country would agree to that, and neither should Israel.

 

[gwynedd1]

Don't you think you're just using old and worn anti-Israeli information to excuse the current actions of her enemies and allow those enemies to shirk their own responsibilities to peace in the region? By taking an attitude that says no one should comply to the UN resolutions until Israel does is really very shortsighted and smacks of playground politics more than the political situation of life on the ground in the Middle East.

It looks to me like you won't give Israel a chance, just like everyone else who hates her existance and right to peace. You have no idea what it's like to live in a world where no matter what you do- someone will hate you for it. That's Israel. They give up Gaza, and rockets come from there and hit innocent people. They give up the West Bank, and they are accused of being "occupiers". They retaliate, as they should, and they are "in the wrong" and "aggressors". It's a no win world for them and you appear to like it that way. I don't. As one prominent jounralist in Australia said- "This six million ain't going no where".

You're arguments have proven to be really shallow and naive in many posts. If you think Israel should comply with UN resolutions that favour those who want her destruction, then you're living in a dream world. No country would agree to that, and neither should Israel.

The UN is used as an "old and worn" pro-Israeli position as upon its creation, the UN was cited to justify it. One cannot justify Israel by the UN and then again deny that it has jurisdiction. I do not like the UN either for reasons I shall not go into now. However if the UN cannot judge Israel than nor can it justify Israel.
As to the 6 million people now, there is a level of justification of a people's existance. That is a good basis for any argument. "They are there now". I am a bit of a political existentialist I suppose.
The end of Israeli occupation and the end of an apartide state is also a univesaly understood concept of justice that is as strong as a people's right to exist because it is an extension of the original. When Israel undermines the Palestian's right t o exist as well as the Labonese it undemines itself. That is the state policy of Israel that is , I am afraid, now a fixture. The state, its policy and its actions are at issue, and it is a hypocrisy applied to a people's right to exist.

 

[applepowerpc]

When Israel undermines the Palestinian's right to exist as well as the Lebanese it undermines itself.

Or it's just racist.

 

[ContraMundum]

Or it's just racist.

...which you would have to a) define and b) prove.

As I've said, all kinds of races live in peace and harmony in Israel.

 

[ContraMundum]

The end of Israeli occupation and the end of an apartide state is also a univesaly understood concept of justice that is as strong as a people's right to exist because it is an extension of the original. When Israel undermines the Palestian's right t o exist as well as the Labonese it undemines itself. That is the state policy of Israel that is , I am afraid, now a fixture. The state, its policy and its actions are at issue, and it is a hypocrisy applied to a people's right to exist.

Can you possibly give us some idea as to what you mean by all this? Don't just throw lefty phrases at us about "occupation" and the plight of the Palestinians etc- give us some substance. Then, temper that substance with some balance.

The Palestinians have a place to call their own, so they have both a right and a means to exist according to Israel and the world. Israel armed them as well, not just gave them the land. They just need to stop lobbing missiles over the border and then they will be left alone. They also need to establish some kind of authority over there which controls militant anti-Israelis fron killing peopple in Israel (this will never happen as long as Hamas is in charge).

 

[gwynedd1]

Can you possibly give us some idea as to what you mean by all this? Don't just throw lefty phrases at us about "occupation" and the plight of the Palestinians etc- give us some substance. Then, temper that substance with some balance.

The Palestinians have a place to call their own, so they have both a right and a means to exist according to Israel and the world. Israel armed them as well, not just gave them the land. They just need to stop lobbing missiles over the border and then they will be left alone. They also need to establish some kind of authority over there which controls militant anti-Israelis fron killing peopple in Israel (this will never happen as long as Hamas is in charge).

I thought it was clear. As I stated , how often do I hear Israel was granted a right to exist by the UN and when the UN become inconvient? Well who need the UN.
As to Israel they have occupy foreign territory throughout. Is that not a fact? It undermines their own rhetoric. The power is in the hands of Israel. There are many sublties about the issue. In the desert what is land without water?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/water.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2982730.stm

Again any resitance of the part of Palestinians will be classified as "hate". How easy it is to force desperate reactions by withholding water in the desert.

 

[Torah]

Verified through snopes.com at: http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/gabriel.asp



*Brigitte Gabriel's** speech at Duke University * (Delivered Oct. 14, 2004)
"I'm proud and honored to stand here today as a Lebanese woman speaking for Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.

I was raised in Lebanon where I was taught that the Jews are evil, Israel is the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.

When the Muslims and Palestinians declared jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.

It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon. My mother was wounded by a Muslim shell and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Muslims, Palestinians, Lebanese Christians, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn't see religion, they didn't see political affiliation; they saw people in need and they helped.

For the first time in my life, I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital; those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized that I was sold a fabricated lie by my government about the Jews and Israel, which was so far from reality. I knew for a fact that if I were a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown to the ground as shouts of joy of "Allahu Akbar" (God is great) echoed through the hospital and the surrounding streets.

I became friends with the families of the wounded Israeli soldiers, one in particular, Rina, whose only child was wounded in his eyes. One day, I was visiting with her and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem, Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started walking out of the room, and this mother held my hand and pulled me back in without even looking at me. She held me, crying, and said, "It is not your fault." We just stood there, crying, holding each other's hands.

What a contrast between her - a mother looking at her deformed, 19-year-old only child and still able to love me, the enemy - and a Muslim mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians.

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It's barbarism versus civilization. It's democracy versus dictatorship. It's goodness versus evil.

The intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian "armed struggle." However, once such behavior is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized everywhere in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.

Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan.

They blame suicide bombings on the "desperation of occupation." Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred 10 weeks before Israel even became independent. On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel 's independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem. Fifty-four people were killed and hundreds were wounded.

Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by "desperation" or "occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.

So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It's time for everyone to stand up and support and defend the State of Israel, which is the front line of the war against terrorism.

Thank you."

 

[ContraMundum]

Good post Torah.

 

[Morghaine]

Awesome post, Torah!

 

[gwynedd1]

If the Question is Islam, is there anyone here defending Islam? Is there anyone defending terror? Since this is typically no, there is no large scale Islamic-Christian apostacy.
My position has been two-fold. The first is to oppose the false teaching and apostacy of Judeo-Christian union. It is union with anti-Christ. Judaism is an anti-Christ belief. As evidence we see the fruit of a violent and ruthless Israel. Though it is surrounded by an equally violent and ruthless element called Hezbollah and Hamas , a curse to all, it does not alter this view. Reactionaries are the anvil to the hammer.
My second postition is my recognition of indirect warfare and that nothing can be judged by first glance. As evidence, I listed The USS Liberty, The Levon Affair, Mossad in Mexican parliment and near 9/11. The US had the Lusitania, Golf of Tonkin, incubator babies and weapons of mass destruction etc.

The enemies of peace will not be one side. There are those on each side that want war for various reasons. The willingness of the rest of us to engage in war is their limitless resource. All one needs to do is stage an incident on one side or the other and the war will continue. The preponderance of power being on the side Israel will more likely make that power more eager for war that is unless Hezbollah can continue to sacrifice civilians for politics as they have seemed to have done.

This is no place for the disciples of Jesus Christ. God is not on either side.

 

[applepowerpc]

My position has been two-fold. The first is to oppose the false teaching and apostacy of Judeo-Christian union. It is union with anti-Christ. Judaism is an anti-Christ belief. As evidence we see the fruit of a violent and ruthless Israel. Though it is surrounded by an equally My position has been two-fold. The first is to oppose the false teaching and apostacy of Judeo-Christian union. It is union with anti-Christ. Judaism is an anti-Christ belief. As evidence we see the fruit of a violent and ruthless Israel. Though it is surrounded by an equally violent and ruthless element called Hezbollah and Hamas

I wholeheartedly agree about the "Judeo-Christian" syncretism. It's an oxymoron.

On defending Islam, I tend to fall in the middle. Sure, it's a non-Christian religion. No Christ, no heaven. Period. But people tend to view Islam as the ultimate antichrist religion, and it's not. It's just another of the many non-Christian religions out there. Judaism, OTOH, I do tend to view as the antichrist religion--the reason being that they rejected the Christ, and are looking for another. One day they will find another. That other is the antichrist.

On Hezbollah & Hamas, it's been frequently claimed that they're not terrorists--they're freedom fighters--and that gets laughed off. But I think there's some truth to that. Israel invaded their land. If you're pacifist, of course you're against ANY armed resistance and you'll tend to view Hezbollah and Hamas as wrong, and that is not a wrong viewpoint to have; but remember--they're not Christians, they're Muslims (generally speaking). Islam is hardly the only religion that does not teach "turn the other cheek". One other point: terrorist or not, those two groups were never out to get the U.S.. Their beef is with Israel. They have been falsely portrayed as enemies of the U.S., in order to enlist our support on Israel's side.

 

[gwynedd1]

I wholeheartedly agree about the "Judeo-Christian" syncretism. It's an oxymoron.

On defending Islam, I tend to fall in the middle. Sure, it's a non-Christian religion. No Christ, no heaven. Period. But people tend to view Islam as the ultimate antichrist religion, and it's not. It's just another of the many non-Christian religions out there. Judaism, OTOH, I do tend to view as the antichrist religion--the reason being that they rejected the Christ, and are looking for another. One day they will find another. That other is the antichrist.

On Hezbollah & Hamas, it's been frequently claimed that they're not terrorists--they're freedom fighters--and that gets laughed off. But I think there's some truth to that. Israel invaded their land. If you're pacifist, of course you're against ANY armed resistance and you'll tend to view Hezbollah and Hamas as wrong, and that is not a wrong viewpoint to have; but remember--they're not Christians, they're Muslims (generally speaking). Islam is hardly the only religion that does not teach "turn the other cheek". One other point: terrorist or not, those two groups were never out to get the U.S.. Their beef is with Israel. They have been falsely portrayed as enemies of the U.S., in order to enlist our support on Israel's side.

The problem with Hezbollah is look what launching rockets accomplished. it provided a pretext to enter Lebanon. It did not help Lebanon though it did help Hezbollah.
As to Islam being the ultimate anti-Christ faith, it is not. The Pharisees of apostate Judaism always has been from the very beginning.

 

[applepowerpc]

I'm not sure I believe that Hezbollah is launching all these rockets. There's a number of really odd things about that. How is some rag-tag organization hiding in buildings & caves capable of launching hundreds of rockets with >10-mile range? I don't buy that. Where do they hide them? How do they finance them? How do they smuggle them? The other thing is, the vast majority of Israelis killed are Israeli Arabs, in Israeli Arab communities. That strikes me as a bit fishy.

Anyway, I agree, these rockets give Israelis the pretext they need to invade Lebanon all right....