Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and

[applepowerpc]

That's a two-way street. Gordon, who are you? Where do your true loyalties lie? With Israel, or Jesus Christ?

 

[Treppers]

The minute you mention "Zionism", you shift from pure religious debate to politics. The minute you throw political quotes around, as you have, you are talking politics. You've been blurring the boundaries since you chimed in to this thread. Don't try to skirt the topic now.

Perhaps you can outline to us, Contra, how to separate religion and politics when it comes to talking about Zionism. I sure as hell can't.

Sure gwynnedd, be a squib when it comes to taking sides. I know which side I'm on. I'm on the side of the kind of world I'd like to live in- and it's not Islamic, Jihadist or run by those of a weak will.

Please refer to my other posts about the motivations of suicide bombers, I can't be bothered to copy-and-paste the same quotes again.

This really is starting to get tedious. What do I have to do to elicit an informed response from some people? I quote from leading scholars on terrorism, Israel's leading professors of history and law, the most exhaustive study of suicide bombings to date... - and what is the response?


Gordon, you will see on another thread that I have put IisJustMe on my will-not-debate list, plus the reasons why. You are close to being on the list (I'm not saying this should be any great disappointment for you or anyone else) for the same reasons. It's not that you're particularly rude, well just see the other thread. God bless, but this will perhaps be the last of our encounters.

 

[Easystreet]

That's a two-way street. Gordon, who are you? Where do your true loyalties lie? With Israel, or Jesus Christ?

I would love to. That is a great thing to do.

I was saved on September 20, 1970 in Royal Oak, Michigan. The song of invatation was "Just As I Am" Don't you just love that song. There's no telling how many lot Jews and Gentiles have come to Christ during the singing of that wonderful song.

What a day!!

I was raised a Southern Baptist In Alabama

I am a Southern Baptist today

I am a dispensationalist in theology

I am white

My ancestors came from England

I am Male

I am 58 years old

I love all peoples and hope all come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Let me know if you want to know more

Now it is your turn.

God Loves you and so do I.

God Bless

Love always finds a way

 

[ContraMundum]

I like your header- it proves you haven't read the thread as yet....typical wise-guy.

No it's not, Contra. You provide no evidence for this "true agenda" other than an ad hominem against gywnedd1.

Get up to speed, Trep.

I've provided "evidence" (although one cannot compel assent from those with closed minds and veiled racial issues with any amount of evidence, so I doubt it would constitute "proof" to you or your ilk).

Just to reiterate- I suggest you catch up to what other intellectuals are saying about this- here's a good start: http://www.futurejihad.com/ (Dr Walid Pharas)

How about "Iraq Ablaze"- have you read that? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1845111109/202-7688067-9482260?v=glance&n=266239

Get up to scratch on this topic, Treppers.

As such, the statement merely serves to reveal your belief that there is no distinction between the general Jewish public, and certain sections of their war-mongering civilian/military leadership and intellectual circles.

I believe that? News to me. Get a valid argument before you enter into one with me, especially if you claim to know my beliefs. I fully understand the distinction between various factions within Israel and without.

Have you ever been there?

...didn't think so.

This 'inability' to make dinstinctions in turn reveals either your intellectual limits (which no reasonable person can hold against you), or your determined efforts to put constraints on debate (for which you are not to be respected).

Nice, sneaky, sleezy and slimy ad-hominem there. Too bad you've already wrecked yourself with your opening ficitious statement. Next.

Me, nor Poke, nor gwynedd1 have ever made a gross generalisation about Jews, we have never made an anit-semitic comment. Please quote us where we have said, "All Jews are =negative statement=."

Of course no one would have the guts to say that about "all" Jews- but anti-semitism has been paraded before us on this thread and a couple of others, cloaked of course with qualifiers. Care to find out how many posts have been reported on this thread for appearing anti-semitic? (I have not reported any, but I know a few others have). You should note: in highly anti-semitic literature and in those circles that propagate that kind of thing usually use metonomy. I see it echoed here.

Examples of what many would consider anti-semite: In post #82 our buddy stated that the terrorist organisations are funded by Jews (although he qualified this by saying "Zionists"- which is a synonym as we all know in anti-semitic circles.)

Post #85 was not much better. In fact, it reads to me like the poster just hates the fact that Jews own more stuff than he does....another credential of classic anti-semitism. (You should read some scholarly work on how prejudice works- I recommend the classic "The Nature of Prejudice" by Gordon Allport and take a good hard look around you). That post was reported- we all saw through it.

Post #101 has a couple of wildly insulting and disparaging sentiments directed at Jews- including questioning our legitimate claim to our own heritage- a vicious and scandalous accusation.

Post #102 echoes 101 and follows on.

As we have been at pains to point out, our views coincide with those of many ordinary Jews and Jewish intellectuals, both within Israel and without. We are against the crimes of right-wing Zionists and their military (a small subset of Jews to be sure), not Jews per se. If you cannot see that simple distinction, see my above comment.

As I have stated- our views concur with those of most ordinary Jews and Jewish intellectuals, both within Isreal and without.

What's your point? You've got your proof-texts and authorities, we've got ours.

I am amazed that you missed that point- but like I said, I don't think you're up to speed on this thread.

This is patent nonsense. Have Jews been on the receiving end of unspeakable crimes and destruction? Of course they have, anyone who has taken the trouble to read a book on it or visit a Holocaust museum will vouch for that. Have Jews always and everywhere been persecuted? No, any suggestion to the contrary is palpable nonsense.

But, a careful poster would not have put such words and affections in my mouth. I never said all Jews at all times and in all places have been persecuted. Please be more careful- you'll save yourself a lot of time online. Read carefully.

Yes... it... did...! See the above quote for example. Jews, Christians and Arabs got along just fine in Palestine before the Zionist settlers began their work of domination in the late 19th-century.

Yeah....right. Christians got along with Jews in Palestine before the 19thC? Ever heard of the Crusades? Care to discuss the Arab Conquest and the ebb and flow of pogroms in the history of Islamic Palestine?

How come your buddies never mention http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_anti-Semitism

or

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/history_of_Muslim_antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism.htm

Unless you can provide some evidence for claims, you merely serve to reveal your desperate desire to explain why so many reasonable people have such a problem with the Israeli government's actions.

Many people support the Israeli government's actions- I'm one of them. It's not perfect, but what is in the Middle East? The sad fact is that innocent people are dying because Hezbollah wanted it that way. Only a poisoned mind would say there is no Jihad against Israel and the West. I feel for the Lebanese people, but that fact is, they allowed their government to sit on its backside and do nothing about the UN Resolution to disarm Hezbollah, and in doing so have discovered that one who lies down with dogs wakes up with fleas.

Perhaps you think I'm incapable of reason, or unitelligent, or whatever. The fact is, I'm educated, intelligent and I just think you're wrong. Live with that, if you can. Like I always say, if you wish to have no quarrel with me you can always change your mind and agree with me, and the quarrel will end.

Airy-fairy formulations do nothing to help explain the world: Look at history, scholarship and so forth. God gave us brains for a reason, namely so that we could reason.

What always strikes me about young people like you is that you assume you know everything and anyone with a different perspective is unread or unintelligent. I say that I started reading and following this when you were in kindergarden. You've listened to too many lefties in your university, but don't worry, it will wear off with time and experience and a wider reading base.

Drawing linkage between al-Qaeda and Hamas is simply nonsense.

Who did that? I merely compared them. Read carefully- you'll pass your exams that way too, incidentaly.

Anyway, the idea that you can lump Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and in with 'al-Qaeda' is absurd.

...which is why I didn't. But, they all have one common factor, don't they? Wiping out Israel. 'Nuff said.

It's worth pointing out also that under international law, Hamas and Palestinians generally have every right to attack Israeli soldiers who are on their occupied land. So the next time you read that Israeli soliders in the West Bank have been attacked, the Palestinian attackers will only have been exercising their right (just as Nelson Mandela had done so against under apartheid) to fight off their oppressors.

This is naive. Ever thought what the reasons were that Israeli soldiers have to go into other territories? They don't go for a leisurely Sunday stroll, do they? They go because they are being provoked and attacked and a lot of people are killed by bombs made in Palestian areas. Have you forgotten already? Are you so daft as to think they go in for no reason?

If you lived there, you'd want them to go into those areas too, and apprehend the criminals, would you not? Or would you rather just let them bomb your busses until they got tired of it?

The irrational thought behind your point of view is staggering.

As for them "wanting to destroy our way of life," you've been uncritically taking on board too much rubbish by Bush et al.

Nice throw-away line. I can't stand Bush and his cronies, but I do read for myself and have decided accordingly. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a brain-washed moron, understand?

As for the rest of your stuff, let's just say I can white-ant everything you said but then again- what do you care?

Let's be honest: If any other ethnicity other than Jews were involved in what's going on over there you people probably would not care too much. You folks didn't care too much about the war in the Congo, after all or the war in Sri Lanka. You don't care if some African despot gets deposed or wipes out thousands, but if a Jew so much as sneezes toward a Gentile in Jerusalem you people denounce it in Berkeley and blame Israel for the world's woes.

Get consistant, because until then, it's just veiled anti-semitism.

 

[ContraMundum]

Perhaps you can outline to us, Contra, how to separate religion and politics when it comes to talking about Zionism. I sure as hell can't.

My point exactly. Your mate didn't want to discuss politics, just religion, but he kept bringing up politics. I see that as inconsistant.

Perhaps you should let him speak for himself. Right now, you're getting yourself all mixed up.

This really is starting to get tedious. What do I have to do to elicit an informed response from some people?

Just scroll back a couple of pages son!

I quote from leading scholars on terrorism, Israel's leading professors of history and law, the most exhaustive study of suicide bombings to date... - and what is the response?

We quote them too! What's your point?

 

[gwynedd1]

Of course no one would have the guts to say that about all Jews- but anti-semitism has been paraded before us on this thread and a couple of others, cloaked of course with qualifiers. Care to find out how many posts have been reported on this thread for appearing anti-semitic?

Then you should have opportunity to point them out. You interprete them as clandestin. The irony of it is the secret anti-Semetic conspricy sound it has. Pointing out bombing done by the state of Israel as evil is done by me openly. The bible reads as follows:

Matt 5 45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What would a Satanic anti-bible have?

Satanic anti-matt 5 s in heaven: for he maketh his sun to set on the evil and on the good, and sendeth flaming hail on the just and on the unjust. 46: For if ye love them which do not love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48: Be ye therefore imperfect, even as your Satanic Father which is in hell is imperfect.

Civilian causualties are judgements made by men and their father the devil.

(I have not reported any, but I know a few others have). You should note: in highly anti-semitic literature and in those circles that propagate that kind of thing usually use metonomy. I see it echoed here.

Examples of what many would consider anti-semite: In post #82 our buddy stated that the terrorist organisations are funded by Jews (although he qualified this by saying "Zionists"- which is a synonym as we all know in anti-semitic circles.)

Post #85 was not much better. In fact, it reads to me like the poster just hates the fact that Jews own more stuff than he does....another credential of classic anti-semitism. (You should read some scholarly work on how prejudice works- I recommend the classic "The Nature of Prejudice" by Gordon Allport and take a good hard look around you). That post was reported- we all saw through it.

Post #101 has a couple of wildly insulting and disparaging sentiments directed at Jews- including questioning our legitimate claim to our own heritage- a vicious and scandalous accusation.

Post #102 echoes 101 and follows on.

More paraphasing and interpretation.

But, a careful poster would not have put such words and affections in my mouth. I never said all Jews at all times and in all places have been persecuted. Please be more careful- you'll save yourself a lot of time online. Read carefully.

Really? That is the whole premise of Zionism which it is apriori that Gentiles will do evil to the Jews. That is in it of itself a slander to Gentiles.

"Herzl concluded that anti-Semitism was a stable and immutable factor in human society, which assimilation did not solve."

Yeah....right. Christians got along with Jews in Palestine before the 19thC? Ever heard of the Crusades? Care to discuss the Arab Conquest and the ebb and flow of pogroms in the history of Islamic Palestine?

A lot of blame to go around. There is no unique victim status for Jews. http://www.blacksandjews.com/Jews_and_Slavery.html

How come your buddies never mention http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_anti-Semitism


http://www.zionismontheweb.org/history_of_Muslim_antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism.htm

I do mention anti-Semitism frequently. What is not ever mentioned is the context of it. The Romans are a classic example. The Romans found the Palistine to be a rebellious state. The Romans did not just start persecuting Jews out of the blue. The Jews kept causing "trouble" from Rome's point of view. Are we to just accept that the Jewish populations had nothing to do with it at all times?
What I also mention is that this is even desired by some Jews to prevent assimilation so anti-Semitism often follows them. Even a population that tries to flee from it attracts people who whant to Getto the Jews.
Lastly I never deny that there are willing anti-Semites who will persecute Jews just because they are Jewish. Everyone seems to only focus on this particular aspect of a rather odd phenomenon of anti-Semitism that seems to appear in history from time to time. However it was not until the Herzl Zionists showed up that it was on a massive scale.

Many people support the Israeli government's actions- I'm one of them. It's not perfect, but what is in the Middle East? The sad fact is that innocent people are dying because Hezbollah wanted it that way. Only a poisoned mind would say there is no Jihad against Israel and the West. I feel for the Lebanese people, but that fact is, they allowed their government to sit on its backside and do nothing about the UN Resolution to disarm Hezbollah, and in doing so have discovered that one who lies down with dogs wakes up with fleas.

Absolutely there is a Jihad against the West. I think they also have help in the west. We have American Bankers helping the Bosheviks, Nazis and Imperial Japan in our history. I believe at some point anti-Semitism will grow in the US. It has already and this is often a Zionist design to drive Jews to Israel

 

[Treppers]

Putting aside your inflammatory remarks (“ilk”, “anti-semitic”, your ignorant assumption that I know nothing about and care nothing for the long-suffering people of Congo, Sri Lanka etc. It’s amusing, by the way, that you pick the media-ignored conflict (Congo) which comes to mind first for most semi-informed people, one obvious conflict that has peaked again recently (Sri Lanka), yet fail to state other lesser-known, ignored hell-holes like Darfur and northern Uganda), putting aside the fact that you ignore my request for outlining how to separate religion and politics when it comes to discussion of Zionism, putting aside the fact that you cannot produce a single anti-semitic quote by myself, putting aside that you completely ignore my discussion of Professor Pape and Jason Burke... let's turn to the internal contradictions of your post.

I believe that? News to me. Get a valid argument before you enter into one with me, especially if you claim to know my beliefs. I fully understand the distinction between various factions within Israel and without.

This quote is your response to my mock-allegation that “[you believe] that there is no distinction between the general Jewish public, and certain sections of their war-mongering civilian/military leadership and intellectual circles.” I outlined one non-serious reason for this ‘belief’ (lack of intelligence) and one serious reason, namely that you don’t allow for distinctions because it removes your ability to uniformly label critics of Israel as anti-semitic.

You then deny this: “I fully understand the distinction between various factions within Israel and without.” Yet what do I find as I scroll down? “If any other ethnicity other than Jews were [sic. - was] involved in what's going on over there you people probably would not care too much… if a Jew so much as sneezes toward a Gentile in Jerusalem you people denounce it in Berkeley and blame Israel for the world's woes.” Aside from the obvious fact that you cite no evidence to back up this astonishing claim, what is hilarious is that you feel able to make it! You state that you allow for distinctions between Jews as a whole and the subset which constitute right-wing Zionists, but then accuse anyone who criticises Zionists of anti-Semitism, which is only possible if you don’t allow us to make distinctions when it comes to criticising Israel.

Another example, having accepted that one can make distinctions as above, you state that “anti-Semitism has been paraded before us on this thread and a couple of others, cloaked of course with qualifiers.” The qualifiers, of course, are the words Zionist and Zionism. So the comments do indeed contain “qualifiers” as you describe them, but the point of qualifiers is to draw distinctions, as I have pointed out ad nauseam in this post and in others.

If you’d like to avoid contradicting yourself, Contra, just be honest and state that any time someone criticises Zionism you will get out your anti-Semite paintbrush.


Next - if we’re simply going to get into comparing which books we’ve read, which I perhaps have led us into for the sake of time and space, well, that’s pointless. Let’s keep to the facts. Outline your understanding of ‘al-Qaeda’ for me on another thread and we can discuss it from there. Let’s start at the beginning and with something simple: When does the term al-Qaeda as commonly conceived appear, and in what context?


You state that you quote from leading scholars (“We quote them too! What's your point?&#8221, yet I cannot find one quote, for example, from Benny Morris or Sara Roy by yourself, or any other Zionist. Just sweep the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians under the carpet, why not? Just sweep the appalling effects of Israel’s de-development of Gaza under the carpet, why not?

I've provided "evidence" [followed by an ad hominem, thus of no relevance].

Just to reiterate- I suggest you catch up to what other intellectuals are saying about this- here's a good start: http://www.futurejihad.com/ (Dr Walid Pharas)

How about "Iraq Ablaze"- have you read that? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1845111109/202-7688067-9482260?v=glance&n=266239

Get up to scratch on this topic, Treppers.

Thanks for the advice. No, I’ve not read the first book, though it looks look a rehash of the old “Clash of Civilisations” argument that I’ve seen eviscerated elsewhere (I’ll post more on it if you like, just ask). Sadly for yourself, I have actually read Iraq Ablaze! It confirmed much of what I read in Jason Burke’s book. I can go into much more detail on this upon request.

Aside from this, what relevance does this have to my earlier points? Simply stating the name and author of a book doesn’t automatically nullify my quotes or arguments. What do the authors say, what are their sources etc.?

Have you ever been there?

...didn't think so.

Ever been to the Congo or Iraq? I’ve not been to Israel, no. Perhaps you can explain why this prevents me from understanding and caring about Israel’s atrocious human rights record and massacre-rape-ethnic-cleansing-strewn history? To understand the terror of having Katyusha missiles launched at you, to get a feel for the culture, to get to know the people, yes, one has to visit Israel. When it comes to history and human rights, anyone, anywhere, can pick up books and reports and understand. Who can go back in time to understand history? No one, so we read instead.

Nice, sneaky, sleezy and slimy ad-hominem there. Too bad you've already wrecked yourself with your opening ficitious [sic] statement. Next.

Ad hominem; no need to deal with this.

Of course no one would have the guts to say that about "all" Jews- but anti-Semitism has been paraded before us on this thread and a couple of others, cloaked of course with qualifiers. Care to find out how many posts have been reported on this thread for appearing anti-semitic? (I have not reported any, but I know a few others have). You should note: in highly anti-semitic literature and in those circles that propagate that kind of thing usually use metonomy. I see it echoed here.

You used a word with four syllables in it. Not only that, you also underlined and italicised it to give an air of authority. Moving away from the world of grandiosity and gibberish and back into the real world, let’s deconstruct your argument and see what we find.

Of course no one would have the guts to say “all” Jews...

This is a crucial (unsupported) assumption for what followed. If we can assume that everyone on this board who is anti-Semitic will not make overtly anti-Semitic comments, instead disguising their dislike of all Jews by restricting their criticisms to Zionism, then we are free to conflate genuine anti-Semities with people who are not anti-Semitic but who nonetheless criticise Zionism. This is enormously useful, as it means that people who are not anti-Semitic will perhaps think twice about criticising Zionists lest they are accused of being anti-Semitic.

And, in fact, in discussion of all the post numbers you mention, you deploy precisely this tactic, conflating non anti-Semitic criticism of Zionism with (assumed) disguised anti-Semitism.

The discussion of each of the posts is vague. Some may argue that this is perhaps because you do believe, despite your claims to the contrary, that criticism of Zionism is de facto anti-Semitism. I think this is unfair to you, I think you can indeed now see the distinctions which myself and others use, but have not yet adjusted your anti-Semitism paintbrush mentality. As a result, you perhaps approach each post with the assumption of anti-Semitism but then smack into the distinctions of which you are now aware. Consequently, while you feel sure that the post is anti-Semitic, you are no longer sure why. Let’s look at the posts:

Examples of what many would consider anti-semite: In post #82 our buddy stated that the terrorist organisations are funded by Jews (although he qualified this by saying "Zionists"- which is a synonym as we all know in anti-semitic circles.)

Again, you fall prey to the above-discussed anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism routine. He does not say that he think Jews fund them, he says that he thinks that Zionists do. You mangle his words and do not allow him the crucial distinction between Jews generally and Zionists, a distinction which you claimed in your post to be able to see. Perhaps I am wrong; perhaps you still cannot see the distinction.

Post #85 was not much better. In fact, it reads to me like the poster just hates the fact that Jews own more stuff than he does....another credential of classic anti-Semitism. (You should read some scholarly work on how prejudice works- I recommend the classic "The Nature of Prejudice" by Gordon Allport and take a good hard look around you). That post was reported- we all saw through it.

I’ll confess, I do not agree with the so-called Jewish conspiracy theories which gwynedd1 (I think) alludes to in this post. But this immaterial, he nowhere loses sight of the distinction between Zionists and Jews generally.

Post #101 has a couple of wildly insulting and disparaging sentiments directed at Jews- including questioning our legitimate claim to our own heritage- a vicious and scandalous accusation.

gwynedd1 directs his attacks at the Israeli government, not Jews generally. I can go into detail on why Israel is indeed a racist state, just let me know. “So, the whole zionist restoration of Israel is just a racist delusion. Most Jews in Israel are no more Jewish than I am. In biblical times, Jews were expected to support their claim to being racial Jews with the presentation of genealogy records, not just to mommy-the-convert, but to Abraham.” I’ve no idea whether more than 51% of Jews are “no more Jewish” than gwynedd1, but he perfectly right to point out that reformed synagogues are pretty recent. Wikipedia suggests the 19th-century was when it took off: “In the 1800s and very early 1900s, Reform Judaism rejected the idea that Jews would re-create a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland. They rejected the idea that there would ever be a personal messiah, and that the Temple in Jerusalem would ever be rebuilt, or that one day animal sacrifices would be re-established in a rebuilt Temple, in accord with the Hebrew Bible.” I used to work with a Jewish family-business, and one of the women there pointed out that Reformed Synagogues permit people to convert to Judaism – a revolutionary development. The Orthodox ones do not, you need a genetic link. Aside from common sense, with the introduction of Reformed Judaism, the idea that Israel could be a genetically ‘pure’ Jewish state went out the window. This is all, I think, that gwynedd1 was trying to point out. It’s certainly not anti-Semitic!

Post #102 echoes 101 and follows on.

Too vague to warrant any comment.

 

[Treppers]

As I have stated- our views concur with those of most ordinary Jews and Jewish intellectuals, both within Isreal and without.

What's your point? You've got your proof-texts and authorities, we've got ours.

The red quote is an echo of my original post. You have simply misunderstood the reason for the quote, namely to demonstrate that all Jews are not Zionists, that many Jews, including the more reasonable ‘Zionists’ (see Jews For Justice For Palestinians, are happy to acknowledge the gross injustices inflicted on the Palestinians before and since the inception of the modern State of Israel. This was done in order to again flag up the distinction between Zionists and Jews generally.

I am amazed that you missed that point- but like I said, I don't think you're up to speed on this thread.

Ad hominem, no need to discuss this.

But, a careful poster would not have put such words and affections in my mouth. I never said all Jews at all times and in all places have been persecuted. Please be more careful- you'll save yourself a lot of time online. Read carefully.

It is not I who needs to express himself more carefully. This is exactly what you said, without a qualification in sight: “The Jews have always been persecuted, even in countries where they submitted to the government.” [My emphasis. The word ‘even’ in the quote does not lend a qualification, it only serves to delineate, and thus emphasise, a specific example of the alleged general persecution.]

Yeah....right. Christians got along with Jews in Palestine before the 19thC? Ever heard of the Crusades? Care to discuss the Arab Conquest and the ebb and flow of pogroms in the history of Islamic Palestine?

This was in response to the quote from the Peel Commission which I used, as you can see, to counter your claim that “Jews have always been persecuted” (see above quote). The Commission refers only to the period prior to the Zionist-instigated conflict, as anyone who was familiar with the Commission’s findings would know. This ignorance of the Commission’s report, or intentional ignorance perhaps, supplies you with the loose peg required on which to hang your suggestion that I meant that all Jews and Arabs in Palestine always got on before the late 19th-century. Recklessly, you cite The Crusades as an example to ‘disprove’ my non-existent claim - if you take the trouble to check my other posts, you will see that I am well aware of The Crusades. I’d be happy to discuss the history of Palestine with you in detail, just let me know.

How come your buddies never mention http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_anti-Semitism

or

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/history_of_Muslim_antiSemitism_and_anti-Zionism.htm

Well, to begin with you have no idea who my buddies are, and thus can have no idea whether they have mentioned such sites to me, and if they haven’t, their reasons for not doing so.

I am not sure what these sites are supposed to prove, aside provide an example of my above analysis of the do-it-all anti-Semitism paintbrush, and the fact that some Arabs are anti-Semitic. Yes, that’s right I acknowledged that some Arabs are anti-Semitic, just the same as some white people are racist, some black people are racist. What is so spectacular about this that it warrants my attention any more than white-black racism, or white-oriental racism? Will you admit that some Jews are racist toward Arabs? Or are you going to force me to haul up some quotes to prove it? Nothing more to add I don’t think.

Many people support the Israeli government's actions- I'm one of them. It's not perfect, but what is in the Middle East? The sad fact is that innocent people are dying because Hezbollah wanted it that way. Only a poisoned mind would say there is no Jihad against Israel and the West. I feel for the Lebanese people, but that fact is, they allowed their government to sit on its backside and do nothing about the UN Resolution to disarm Hezbollah, and in doing so have discovered that one who lies down with dogs wakes up with fleas.

Perhaps you can see the other post in which gwynedd1 lists the UN resolutions condemning Israel and which Israel ignored. You’re on extremely dangerous ground when you mention Israel and the UN, as I and others will be happen to go into in more detail.

Perhaps you think I'm incapable of reason, or unitelligent, or whatever. The fact is, I'm educated, intelligent and I just think you're wrong. Live with that, if you can. Like I always say, if you wish to have no quarrel with me you can always change your mind and agree with me, and the quarrel will end.

I don’t doubt your intelligence; I do doubt your ability to think rationally.

What always strikes me about young people like you is that you assume you know everything and anyone with a different perspective is unread or unintelligent. I say that I started reading and following this when you were in kindergarden. You've listened to too many lefties in your university, but don't worry, it will wear off with time and experience and a wider reading base.

This is just theatrics, no need to deal with it.

Who did that? I merely compared them. Read carefully- you'll pass your exams that way too, incidentaly [sic. - incidentally]

...which is why I didn't. But, they all have one common factor, don't they? Wiping out Israel. 'Nuff said.

Gross generalisation, no supporting evidence.

This is naive. Ever thought what the reasons were that Israeli soldiers have to go into other territories? They don't go for a leisurely Sunday stroll, do they? They go because they are being provoked and attacked and a lot of people are killed by bombs made in Palestian areas. Have you forgotten already? Are you so daft as to think they go in for no reason?

This is spectacular. The reason, as has been documented ad nauseam, is to occupy the land, with the intention of stealing it. Even the most ardent Zionists I know will admit this, and justify it. Aside from the ignorables, will you become the first person I hear to deny it?

If you lived there, you'd want them to go into those areas too, and apprehend the criminals, would you not? Or would you rather just let them bomb your busses until they got tired of it?

This statement completely ignores the fact that the Hamas only started bombing buses in response to an Israeli (Baruch Goldstein) obliterating 29 Palestinians in the Tomb of the Patriarchs. To use your logic: “What were Hamas supposed to do, just let Israelis bomb Palestinians until Israelis got tired of it?”

The irrational thought behind your point of view is staggering.

Simple ad hominem, no need to discuss this.

As for the rest of your stuff, let's just say I can white-ant everything you said but then again- what do you care?

Couldn’t understand this sentence.

Let's be honest: If any other ethnicity other than Jews were involved in what's going on over there you people probably would not care too much. You folks didn't care too much about the war in the Congo, after all or the war in Sri Lanka. You don't care if some African despot gets deposed or wipes out thousands, but if a Jew so much as sneezes toward a Gentile in Jerusalem you people denounce it in Berkeley and blame Israel for the world's woes.

Breath-taking, unsupported assumptions. But don’t worry, I know it’s standard fare for apologists for Israel to label Gentile critics as anti-semitic, and Jewish critics as self-loathers. I can tell you all about Sri Lanka and Congo. The point of this thread has become to discuss Israel, the Palestinians. Why on earth would I bring Sri Lanka and Congo into the discussion?

Get consistant

[sic. – consistent], because until then, it's just veiled anti-Semitism.

See above.

It’s you that’s turning this into a race issue, not me mate.

 

[romanov]

Let's be honest: If any other ethnicity other than Jews were involved in what's going on over there you people probably would not care too much. You folks didn't care too much about the war in the Congo, after all or the war in Sri Lanka. You don't care if some African despot gets deposed or wipes out thousands, but if a Jew so much as sneezes toward a Gentile in Jerusalem you people denounce it in Berkeley and blame Israel for the world's woes.

Get consistant, because until then, it's just veiled anti-semitism.

Good show!!

I've just been sitting back reading your back and forth to these fellows. Poke is not as careful as the other two. He said something in another thread concerning the hanging of a mentally ill girl as a mercy killing. I asked him several times to clarify and stand by his statement. Of course, he wouldn't and I finally let him off the hook and gave him an out.

One thing I've been trying to do is get them to actually start stating what their grand plan to bring peace to the region would be. The Anti-Zionists (Anti-Semites) won't answer that because they know any solution that doesn't involve letting Israel defend themselves will end up in box cars filled with women and children.

You may disagree with me on my belief that from the beginning we should have never gotten involved with foreign entanglements. And had we not, we wouldn't have the current mess in the Middle East we have now. I honestly believe that if Israel was allowed to defend itself to whatever extent she deemed necessary, in the end, it would not only be good for the Jews because they would win, but it would also be good for the non-Jews in the region because the hate mongering Jihadists would be wiped out.

That's just my opinion. I'm going to sit back and watch the fireworks now.

 

[ContraMundum]

One thing I've been trying to do is get them to actually start stating what their grand plan to bring peace to the region would be.

That's a pretty good question.

I await their answer too.

You may disagree with me on my belief that from the beginning we should have never gotten involved with foreign entanglements. And had we not, we wouldn't have the current mess in the Middle East we have now. I honestly believe that if Israel was allowed to defend itself to whatever extent she deemed necessary, in the end, it would not only be good for the Jews because they would win, but it would also be good for the non-Jews in the region because the hate mongering Jihadists would be wiped out.

That's just my opinion. I'm going to sit back and watch the fireworks now.

I tend to agree with you.

The fact of the matter is this: these people like to argue from the side of the bad guys. They know deep down the only solution for the bad guys is wiping Israel off the map. This of course is an unacceptable solution to me or any other sane human.

Keep in mind: these people would support a war for freedom and democracy in other countries, but not for Israel. These people support democratic causes in Myanmar, the former Soviet Republics, Cuba- wherever. But when it comes to peace of mind and freedom for Jewish people- they fall on the other side, believe every single thing the other side says, and cry foul whenever there is anything that could possibly make a Jew look bad. Think about the vomit we've seen on this thread: a Jew owns a bank, he's trying to take over the world. A Jew wants to be in peace in Jerusalem, he's a Zionist invader. A Jew defends himself and his children from terrorist criminals through means found in all countries, he's a violator of human rights and a tyrant.

Meanwhile, no one says anything bad about a movement that embraces a philosophy of beheading the innocent on ideological grounds, of targeting civilians through hijacking planes and also firing rockets into cities indiscriminately (although if a Jew does that- he's a war criminal), a movement whose leaders call for the wiping out of nations (when Nazis did that, they were called tyrannical despots, when an Arab leader does it, he's a "freedom fighter"), a movement that has become intolerant of diverse religious and political views and will use lethal force to purse and maintain it (when the commies did this, they were the scourge of the earth, when Arabs do it, they're "merely living out their values"), and most importantly, a movement that hates everything we stand for, and wants it cast into oblivion.

All this biased support for what? Do these people expect mercy, fair play and respect from Islamic fundies?

I say this to those who are Anti-Israel:

Look around folks! Which culture causes civil problems in cities all around the world, Jihadists or Jews? Which side causes troubles in the world and makes headlines of terror? Who are good citizens in their countries, the Jews, or the Jihadists? Did Jihadists hijack planes or Hasidic Jews? Which side of the conflict do you want to be on? Which culture are you going to support, one based on Judeo-Christian values or one based on those of the child-molester and beheader Mohammed?

Note: I am not saying all Muslims are bad- just Jihadists.

 

[ContraMundum]

Putting aside ...putting aside... putting aside...putting aside...

Man, that was one long paragraph for a person not wanting to engage the issues.

I just edited it- those "putting aside" comments were yours.

Ever been to the Congo or Iraq?

Yes to Congo, no to Iraq. But then again, I'm not pretending to be an exper on either, yet you are an armchair expert on Israel..

I’ve not been to Israel, no. Perhaps you can explain why this prevents me from understanding and caring about Israel’s atrocious human rights record and massacre-rape-ethnic-cleansing-strewn history?

...because you've been lied to, and you don't know it, and if you did, you wouldn't admit to it. A few years on the ground is worth a thousand years of reading on this topic, boy-o.

You used a word with four syllables in it. Not only that, you also underlined and italicised it to give an air of authority.

You poor man. The word you didn't understand was crucial to the rest of my post. The reason you've deconstructed the rest of my post to your own satisfaction is because you didn't understand the necessary prolegomena which was centred around that big bad word you ignored. If you had have understood the word, you would not have posted the hot air dispensation you served up to us all.

Enjoy!

 

[ContraMundum]

Well, to begin with you have no idea who my buddies are

Oh, I think I do.

you can see the other post in which gwynedd1 lists the UN resolutions condemning Israel and which Israel ignored. You’re on extremely dangerous ground when you mention Israel and the UN, as I and others will be happen to go into in more detail.

Of course Israel has been a bit recalcitrant regarding the UN- but with neighbours like theirs, and in the situation they face- who wouldn't be? Interesting that the US is perhaps the only worse offender.

Personally, I think the UN is presided over by an idiot, so it's no wonder they don't have any real sense of justice or clout. It's all a bit PC, isn't it?

I don’t doubt your intelligence; I do doubt your ability to think rationally.

...and yet you would spend all this time trying to refute me. Sounds like an ego thing to me, frankly. People defend their ego all the time here.

This is spectacular. The reason, as has been documented ad nauseam, is to occupy the land, with the intention of stealing it.

Now you're being disengenuous. Not good. You've changed the context and I won't play into that little ploy. I say the incursions into Gaza etc are not to occupy the land but to apprehend violent criminals and thus defend the nation across the border, then the soldiers leave, as always. You're now talking about another issue altogether.

Occupation- the Arabs got the West Bank, they got Gaza, what do they want now? Oh- that's right- dead Jews. Ps. 83

This statement completely ignores the fact that the Hamas only started bombing buses in response to an Israeli (Baruch Goldstein) obliterating 29 Palestinians in the Tomb of the Patriarchs. To use your logic: “What were Hamas supposed to do, just let Israelis bomb Palestinians until Israelis got tired of it?”

My goodness, you poor innocent victim of Muslim propaganda. Goldstein's actions were condemned by the Israeli government and people and the victims got financial compensation, something the uncivilised* Hamas would never do for a Jew. Hamas has used this incident to justify its continued Jihad. The 29 victims of Goldstein have been avenged 100-fold on innocents and still they continue. They will never stop, and you know it. Not until there is another mass "relocation" of Jews, out of Israel.

Why do you openly and actively support Hamas ideology and political platforms? What's your connection?

I can tell you all about Sri Lanka and Congo.

I'm sure you could- you know all things, one only need to ask.

*I don't spell in US English, so quit correcting it when it is correct and mis-applying the word "sic". (No, Treppers, you don't correct a word, then re-type the original and then put "sic" after it. That's dreadful literacy. You are to leave the uncorrected word and put "sic" in parenthesis after it. If you correct it, then you have no need to insert "sic", as this would be a redundancy, and it just looks pompous).

 

[gwynedd1]

No, I'm just telling you that you know nothing about it. It's obvious.

I really wish you would provide some support for what you say. I will never be convinced by unsupported opinions or wrathful retorts. I have made no personal attacks against you. Why do you feel that you have a right to do so? If I know nothing about it then you should offer an explaination. If not, then you must consider it beneath you and it is a sign of arrogance.
I state my opinions on what I believe to be going on in the world. I provide biblical references and attempt to monitor world events as much as I am able. The Zionist bias in the US media is , to me, obvious and it is for me like a Zionist Al Jazeera.
As to you comment on what I know about Kabbala, I am no expert, but I am not ignorant. It is the same old oral traditions that Christ condemned, only 13th century. It is like the Gnostic, "secrete knowledge" of Christian apostates applied to the Torah, a "hidden Torah" passed on orally. Its pure Pharisee.
All their oral Traditions are indeed false and I will take Christ's world on it. However supporting evidence does not hurt.
The Ethiopian Jews have no oral traditions. If these were passed on to Moses then what happened here? All these oral traditions are anti-Christ.
http://www.iaej.co.il/pages/our_culture_religion.htm

As to the primary work of the Kabala , The Zohar, the fruit of it were the Frankists. Now there is ofcourse there is much debate about what is actually in the Kabala. I wish not to start that debate because I would prefer to be certain of it.

The minute you mention "Zionism", you shift from pure religious debate to politics. The minute you throw political quotes around, as you have, you are talking politics. You've been blurring the boundaries since you chimed in to this thread. Don't try to skirt the topic now.

Political Zionism, as invisioned by Herzl and Rothschild, is anti-Christ. It is Zionist defenders that blur the boundries. It seems Jews, Zionists, the state of Israel, Jacob/Israel, Judaism and Kabala are all one. Attack one, attack them all. If I object to Zionists murdering Lebanese, I am an anti-Semite. If I reject Christian Zionists, I am an anti-Semite. If say the Talmud and Judasim rejects Christ, I am an anti-Semite. Once an anti-Semite, always an anti-Semite. Jewish people by those standards are a sinless people who are always victims. I am clearly trying to distinguish while you try to blur it to discredit me.

Oh yes..."I'm neutral, this doesn't effect me". Sure gwynnedd, be a squib when it comes to taking sides. I know which side I'm on. I'm on the side of the kind of world I'd like to live in- and it's not Islamic, Jihadist or run by those of a weak will.

I am not neutral, I oppose them both but I have made clear the Judaism is by far the greater theat today because it corrupts Christianity from within. Are there Islamo-Christian apostates? I would think the opposite really because Islams accepts Christ as a prophet and thus would seem more seductive. However the Money power seems to overpower everything. Money has become the God of this world. Non-religeous Jews, Reformed Jews, Torah Jews and some Orthodox are not this money power. However , as I have pointed out Frankist, Kabbalistic and Occultic Jews do have this money power and use it to creat their "kingdom" over their "unenlighted brethern". Do they all have Jewish mothers? Many perhaps but all seem to be Zionists.


Oh and if it makes you feel justified then I will tell you that it is quite true neo-Nazis eat this stuff up to blame ALL Jews. Stormfront is a perfect example. Many people on those boards hate Africans, Mexicans, Indians, Arabs and even Slavs.


Those oranizations are the best friends of the Zionist. They help them stoke the fires of anti-Semitism and its rich supply of political protection and then serves to "discredit" things that they say that also happen to be true. "Neo-Nazis drink ice water, you drink ice water, therefore you are a neo-Nazi type logic."


Here is a good comment in general about useful idiots and the other genocides that for some, seem of little importance.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell090100.asp



I am really sorry you feel the way you do. I am not attacking you, nor do I wish to attack you in anyway. If you wish to know my motivations then you may anticipate it better by my belief that there is an extremly wealthy money power that have as one of their goals Zionism. Their foot soldiers are Frankist apostates that infultrate and become "crypto-Jews" but they corrupt Jewish organizations as well as Christian and Islamic. They find willing partners to commit these crimes including my own Croation heritage. Hatred is created, cultivated and fed with money.


I also argue against Zionist Christians on broader grounds if that is what you feel is my "wondering" argument . There is no reason to support the "state of Israel" for a Christain regardless of its primacy. Judaism is a false religion and they do not see God at this time as I have given supporting scripture. There is no reason to blindly support the slaughter of Arabs at a 10 to 1 ratio and this is done out of bias nurtured by the scofield reference bible. I have supporting scripture that Christ received 30 pieces of silver for his covenant which now stands broken. You have not provided any supporting scipture.

 

[ContraMundum]

I really wish you would provide some support for what you say. I will never be convinced by unsupported opinions or wrathful retorts.....


..... If you wish to know my motivations then you may anticipate it better by my belief that there is an extremly wealthy money power that have as one of their goals Zionism. Their foot soldiers are Frankist apostates that infultrate and become "crypto-Jews" but they corrupt Jewish organizations as well as Christian and Islamic.

Amazing contradiction.

 

[ContraMundum]

Look Gwynedd, I wouldl ike to have thekind of time to kill to respond to the sum of your post- but it's just too "out there" and I know a hopeless cause when I see one. (Not saying you are hopeless, just that there is no point in arguing).

However, I am curious about this comment-

They find willing partners to commit these crimes including my own Croation heritage.

How come it's OK for Croatians to fight for their own independant homeland, as has happened even recently, but when Jews do it, it's an evil conspiracy and should be rejected etc. The Balkans wars that Croatia was part of were full of atrocities, ethnic cleansing and the like, but still, for a Croatian, it was necessary to have a free, safe homeland. How come its ok for everyone to have a safe homeland except Jews? Why is "Zionism" considered an evil Satanic doctrine but other forms of nationalism not???????

 

[gwynedd1]

Look Gwynedd, I wouldl ike to have thekind of time to kill to respond to the sum of your post- but it's just too "out there" and I know a hopeless cause when I see one. (Not saying you are hopeless, just that there is no point in arguing).

However, I am curious about this comment-




How come it's OK for Croatians to fight for their own independant homeland, as has happened even recently, but when Jews do it, it's an evil conspiracy and should be rejected etc. The Balkans wars that Croatia was part of were full of atrocities, ethnic cleansing and the like, but still, for a Croatian, it was necessary to have a free, safe homeland. How come its ok for everyone to have a safe homeland except Jews? Why is "Zionism" considered an evil Satanic doctrine but other forms of nationalism not???????

It is not OK. Christians are a nation of faith. Ustase was an evil Satanic movement. It was a majority of Croation Catholics and Frankist infultrators . What was the fruit ?


Sure, the Serbs helped provoke this. In 1928 Croatian leadership was assinated in parliment. This was during the SHS state(Slovenes, Croats and Serbs). I am also part Sloven BTW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puni%C5%A1a_Ra%C4%8Di%C4%87

Puniša Račić (Пуниша Рачи&#1115 was a Montenegro-born Serbian politician, a member of the Yugoslav Parliament from the National Radical Party, who assassinated Pavle Radić and Djuro Basariček, Croatian Peasant Party representatives, deadly wounding Stjepan Radić, leader of Croatian Peasant Party at the time and wounding a further two.

Lead by this Frankist it resulted in Serbian Genocide.
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pavelic.html


Country: Croatia.
Kill tally: 300,000 to one million, including up to 30,000 Jews, up to 29,000 Gipsies, and between 300,000 and 600,000 Serbs.
Background: The southern Slavic states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia and Macedonia begin to emerge as a unified state following the First World War. But the legacy of a 400-year occupation by the Islamic Ottoman Empire and traditional tension between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians frustrate attempts for unity.


What did this do for the Croations?

Bleiburg massacre

Although a still undefined number of NDH soldiers died during a series of battles and skirmishes, it is generally accepted that the vast portion of violent deaths were the result of executions that lasted at least two weeks after the cessation of hostilities. The victims were soldiers and civilians, executed without trial as an act of vengeance for the crimes committed by the Ustaše regime in NDH-controlled territories during World War II — frequently in overtly gruesome manner (mass rape and subsequent killing by stoning of women; beheading of disarmed soldiers). Murder continued in nearby Slovenia, and it is hard to estimate the number of victims in Bleiburg field, compared to those later found in the trenches in the Maribor area and other numerous pits in Slovenia. Many captives were sent on a death march further into partisan-controlled territory.

2. Another school operates with big numbers, and their contention is that over 250,000 Croats had been executed in Bleiburg, Slovenia and northern Croatia. This theory has gained some publicity in recent years, when Slovene authorities have estimated, in 1999 and 2000, that mass excavations in wider Maribor area have found circa 180,000 human corpses, mostly Croats (judging from the remnants of military insignia). As reported elsewhere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puni%C5%A1a_Ra%C4%8Di%C4%87

God Bless my brethern Serbs who have the seed of the faith of Abraham and are covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus. God Bless my Croations brethern who have the seed of Abraham. We are one race of faith. God bless the peace makers.

Rom 4

[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[ContraMundum]

It is not OK. Christians are a nation of faith. Ustase was an evil Satanic movement. It was a majority of Croation Catholics and Frankist infultrators . What was the fruit?.

So, you're saying that Croatia has no right to exist, right? It should be a part of Yugoslavia, which should never have been divided. Is that right?

OR-

Are you merely condemning the atrocities done in the name of Croatian independence?

If so, then why don't you afford the Jewish people that same rights to a safe land of their own?

 

[gwynedd1]

So, you're saying that Croatia has no right to exist, right? It should be a part of Yugoslavia, which should never have been divided. Is that right?

OR-

Are you merely condemning the atrocities done in the name of Croatian independence?

If so, then why don't you afford the Jewish people that same rights to a safe land of their own?

There is no provision of war as a follower of Christ. If there is then please provide the scripture for it. As it is now I would leave it be.
I do not accept that Israel is a safe place for Jews. They are sorrounded by people hostile to the state of Israel. The premise is wrong.

By a worldly standard?
The manner of which Yugoslavia broke apart was criminal. If ethinic cleansing was the goal the west could have paid everyone to move more cheaply. However solutions only seem to be done by force.
If Israel removed their current government and went into Lebanon to rebuild it Hezbollah would disappear. That however would take the power of God to inspire it.

 

[romanov]

There is no provision of war as a follower of Christ. If there is then please provide the scripture for it. As it is now I would leave it be.
I do not accept that Israel is a safe place for Jews. They are sorrounded by people hostile to the state of Israel. The premise is wrong.

War, maybe not. Self defense, maybe. I seem to remeber something about two swords.

Okay, here is your choice. Convert to islam or die. Which will it be? Can you convert in public, but remain a follower of Christ behind closed doors? Would you sacrifice yourself for God? What about your children? Being they will be raised without you around, what will become of them?

Make your choice, you have 10 seconds, 9, 8, 7, 6, ......

By a worldly standard?
The manner of which Yugoslavia broke apart was criminal. If ethinic cleansing was the goal the west could have paid everyone to move more cheaply. However solutions only seem to be done by force.
If Israel removed their current government and went into Lebanon to rebuild it Hezbollah would disappear. That however would take the power of God to inspire it.

Inspiring, but niave.

 

[gwynedd1]

War, maybe not. Self defense, maybe. I seem to remeber something about two swords.

Okay, here is your choice. Convert to islam or die. Which will it be? Can you convert in public, but remain a follower of Christ behind closed doors? Would you sacrifice yourself for God? What about your children? Being they will be raised without you around, what will become of them?

Make your choice, you have 10 seconds, 9, 8, 7, 6, ......



Inspiring, but niave.

The answer is to run or die. That is it. I am sorry. Now is a good time to start reading the scripture.

Matt 10

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30: But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31: Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Rev 20

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.