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Loggerhead Turtles Defy Evolutionary Explanation

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Not too long ago, I received the third issue of Creation magazine for this year. This high-quality magazine puts many conventional publications to shame just by being void of distracting ads and packed full of captivating graphics. But it goes far beyond that: it is loaded with information people don't hear every day. There is a reason it is sent to more than 100 countries.

As usual, this issue contained a good article about a specific species of animal that cannot be adequately explained by evolution. This time it was the Loggerhead sea turtle.

It has been known for some time that Loggerhead turtles accomplish their outstanding migrations with the aid of magnetic sensing "equipment" that allows them to determine their latitude. This was enough of a puzzle for evolutionists. How could such capability arise due to natural selection? To be an advantage, the magnetic sensing system would have to be fully functioning. The famous evolutionist J.B.S. Haldane would agree, saying in 1949 that evolution could never produce "various mechanisms such as the wheel and magnet, which would be useless until fairly perfect." So that was conundrum number one. The article goes on to say, "Despite this, modern evolutionists have blithely continued to credit the loggerhead's navigational abilities to evolution, illogically disregarding the sophisticated design required for magnetic field sensing."

Well, the evolutionists' job has just become harder. It has more recently been discovered that these turtles can also sense their longitude via the magnetic field. We'll let evolutionary biologist James L. Gould sum up the situation: "A skeptic could reasonably believe that the latitudinal cue is magnetic, but that determining east-west position depends on magic." How did the turtles evolve this sort of sophisticated equipment? Yes, it must be quite sophisticated because the angle of the magnetic field changes only slightly when moving east to west, and it would be necessary to detect this in order to determine one's position in terms of longitude.

How was it determined that turtles can sense their position in terms of longitude? Researchers took newly-hatched turtles from Florida that had never been in the sea and put them in two different tanks equipped with magnetic coils to simulate different locations. One tank was set to simulate a location in the western Atlantic, near Puerto Rico, and the other in the east, near the Cape Verde islands. Sure enough, turtles in the "Puerto Rico" tank swam northeast, and in the "Cape Verde" pool, they headed northwest, as if returning on the homeward leg of their circular migratory route.

And speaking of turtles, their origin and place in the evolutionary tree of life remains puzzling to evolutionists. Due to their hard shells, their history should be easily preserved in the fossil record. But evolutionists have alternatively claimed that tuataras, lizards, and snakes are their closest relatives. However, from a molecular point of view, birds and crocodiles should be their "living sister group". And now a turtle fossil has been discovered in Upper Triassic strata in China, presumed to be 220 million years in age. The paper published on this discovery contained the candid admission, "The new discovery of the beautifully preserved fossil O. semitestacea produces more questions than it answers, reopening questions of turtle origins, shell evolution, and original paleoecology." (Reference: Lyson, T. and Gilbert, S., Turtles all the way down: loggerheads at the root of the chelonian tree, Evolution & Development 11(2):133-135, 2009.)

Evolutionists on this forum may object that science is all about asking questions and finding solutions to dilemmas. But, finally, enough riddles should debilitate the credibility of a theory.

The biblical creationist position accommodates the loggerhead turtle with ease, since turtles were created by God as a specific kind of animal that will always reproduce after its own kind. And Noah's Flood is an easy answer for the existence of "beautifully preserved" turtle fossils. But, as the article says in closing, "...this explanation only works for those who don't want to 'deliberately forget' --2 Peter 3:5-6."
 

Delphiki

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Cows have been shown to actually have a sort of internal compass ability as well. It's even been shown on Mythbusters. I'm not sure how this is supposed to disprove evolution.

It just seems like the article is also simply using the ever-existing gaps in the fossil record to make it's argument, which is only a good one for creationists who don't understand that each time a transition is found anywhere, it only makes two more (albeit smaller) gaps. Of course this is the case -- why wouldn't it be?

It completely overlooks the fact that it takes special conditions for fossils to be formed, and that not everything will be fossilized and that not all fossils still ever will be discovered.

Analogy:
If you see numbers 4.65 and 4.67, that doesn't mean that 4.66 can't exist, especially when you have 4.62, 4.63, 4.64, 4.68, and so on as well.
 
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Cows have been shown to actually have a sort of internal compass ability as well. It's even been shown on Mythbusters. I'm not sure how this is supposed to disprove evolution.

It just seems like the article is also simply using the ever-existing gaps in the fossil record to make it's argument, which is only a good one for creationists who don't understand that each time a transition is found anywhere, it only makes two more (albeit smaller) gaps. Of course this is the case -- why wouldn't it be?

It completely overlooks the fact that it takes special conditions for fossils to be formed, and that not everything will be fossilized and that not all fossils still ever will be discovered.

Analogy:
If you see numbers 4.65 and 4.67, that doesn't mean that 4.66 can't exist, especially when you have 4.62, 4.63, 4.64, 4.68, and so on as well.
Yes, it does take special conditions for fossils to form. Conditions that would not occur over millions of years of slow deposition and the gradual continuation of processes we see today.

And there is a vast difference between the hypothetical "reality" of evolution and the established existence of mathematics. This is why scientists such as John R Rankin can be biblical creationists and possess a B.S. with first class honours in applied mathematics.
 
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Split Rock

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Not too long ago, I received the third issue of Creation magazine for this year. This high-quality magazine puts many conventional publications to shame just by being void of distracting ads and packed full of captivating graphics. But it goes far beyond that: it is loaded with information people don't hear every day. There is a reason it is sent to more than 100 countries.
So, "captivating graphics," impresses you, huh? Guess that's why the Creation Museum makes so much money. Also, does the fact that there are people who's theology and scientific understanding are both poor in more than 100 countries somehow lend credence to anything written in this "high quality" magazine?

As usual, this issue contained a good article about a specific species of animal that cannot be adequately explained by evolution. This time it was the Loggerhead sea turtle.
One would think that if evolution was wrong, you guys would be able to falsify it based on general principles, rather than pick at it with the tongue of the woodpecker, and such.

It has been known for some time that Loggerhead turtles accomplish their outstanding migrations with the aid of magnetic sensing "equipment" that allows them to determine their latitude. This was enough of a puzzle for evolutionists. How could such capability arise due to natural selection? To be an advantage, the magnetic sensing system would have to be fully functioning. The famous evolutionist J.B.S. Haldane would agree, saying in 1949 that evolution could never produce "various mechanisms such as the wheel and magnet, which would be useless until fairly perfect." So that was conundrum number one. The article goes on to say, "Despite this, modern evolutionists have blithely continued to credit the loggerhead's navigational abilities to evolution, illogically disregarding the sophisticated design required for magnetic field sensing."
So, you go back to a quote mined from 1949? I am not impressed.

Well, the evolutionists' job has just become harder. It has more recently been discovered that these turtles can also sense their longitude via the magnetic field. We'll let evolutionary biologist James L. Gould sum up the situation: "A skeptic could reasonably believe that the latitudinal cue is magnetic, but that determining east-west position depends on magic." How did the turtles evolve this sort of sophisticated equipment? Yes, it must be quite sophisticated because the angle of the magnetic field changes only slightly when moving east to west, and it would be necessary to detect this in order to determine one's position in terms of longitude.
Reference for this quote?

How was it determined that turtles can sense their position in terms of longitude? Researchers took newly-hatched turtles from Florida that had never been in the sea and put them in two different tanks equipped with magnetic coils to simulate different locations. One tank was set to simulate a location in the western Atlantic, near Puerto Rico, and the other in the east, near the Cape Verde islands. Sure enough, turtles in the "Puerto Rico" tank swam northeast, and in the "Cape Verde" pool, they headed northwest, as if returning on the homeward leg of their circular migratory route.
OK. No magic there.

And speaking of turtles, their origin and place in the evolutionary tree of life remains puzzling to evolutionists. Due to their hard shells, their history should be easily preserved in the fossil record. But evolutionists have alternatively claimed that tuataras, lizards, and snakes are their closest relatives. However, from a molecular point of view, birds and crocodiles should be their "living sister group". And now a turtle fossil has been discovered in Upper Triassic strata in China, presumed to be 220 million years in age. The paper published on this discovery contained the candid admission, "The new discovery of the beautifully preserved fossil O. semitestacea produces more questions than it answers, reopening questions of turtle origins, shell evolution, and original paleoecology." (Reference: Lyson, T. and Gilbert, S., Turtles all the way down: loggerheads at the root of the chelonian tree, Evolution & Development 11(2):133-135, 2009.)
Wow, another quote mined out of context. At least this one is from the current century. But of course in science when we answer one question, it usually leads to two more. What does that prove?

Evolutionists on this forum may object that science is all about asking questions and finding solutions to dilemmas. But, finally, enough riddles should debilitate the credibility of a theory.
Riddles do nothing to falsify a theory. Evidence that contradicts it, falsifies a theory. So far, there still isn't any that falsifies evolution.

The biblical creationist position accommodates the loggerhead turtle with ease, since turtles were created by God as a specific kind of animal that will always reproduce after its own kind. And Noah's Flood is an easy answer for the existence of "beautifully preserved" turtle fossils. But, as the article says in closing, "...this explanation only works for those who don't want to 'deliberately forget' --2 Peter 3:5-6."
How so? Are you claiming there was a "loggerhead turtle" kind on the ark, and not just a "turtle" kind? Did this method of navigation evolve (or "hyper" evolve) after the Flood? Or did God put this navigation ability into his "turtle" kind just so Loggerhead turtles could later travel long distances because he thought that it would be cool? More to the point, what evidence would potentially falsify the "biblical creationist position?" Is there any? If not, what is the point of stating that biblical creationism "accommodates the loggerhead turtle with ease." Isn't anything and everything accomodated by biblical creationism "with ease?"
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Not too long ago, I received the third issue of Creation magazine for this year. This high-quality magazine puts many conventional publications to shame just by being void of distracting ads and packed full of captivating graphics. But it goes far beyond that: it is loaded with information people don't hear every day. There is a reason it is sent to more than 100 countries.

As usual, this issue contained a good article about a specific species of animal that cannot be adequately explained by evolution. This time it was the Loggerhead sea turtle.

It has been known for some time that Loggerhead turtles accomplish their outstanding migrations with the aid of magnetic sensing "equipment" that allows them to determine their latitude. This was enough of a puzzle for evolutionists. How could such capability arise due to natural selection? To be an advantage, the magnetic sensing system would have to be fully functioning. The famous evolutionist J.B.S. Haldane would agree, saying in 1949 that evolution could never produce "various mechanisms such as the wheel and magnet, which would be useless until fairly perfect." So that was conundrum number one. The article goes on to say, "Despite this, modern evolutionists have blithely continued to credit the loggerhead's navigational abilities to evolution, illogically disregarding the sophisticated design required for magnetic field sensing."

Well, the evolutionists' job has just become harder. It has more recently been discovered that these turtles can also sense their longitude via the magnetic field. We'll let evolutionary biologist James L. Gould sum up the situation: "A skeptic could reasonably believe that the latitudinal cue is magnetic, but that determining east-west position depends on magic." How did the turtles evolve this sort of sophisticated equipment? Yes, it must be quite sophisticated because the angle of the magnetic field changes only slightly when moving east to west, and it would be necessary to detect this in order to determine one's position in terms of longitude.

How was it determined that turtles can sense their position in terms of longitude? Researchers took newly-hatched turtles from Florida that had never been in the sea and put them in two different tanks equipped with magnetic coils to simulate different locations. One tank was set to simulate a location in the western Atlantic, near Puerto Rico, and the other in the east, near the Cape Verde islands. Sure enough, turtles in the "Puerto Rico" tank swam northeast, and in the "Cape Verde" pool, they headed northwest, as if returning on the homeward leg of their circular migratory route.

And speaking of turtles, their origin and place in the evolutionary tree of life remains puzzling to evolutionists. Due to their hard shells, their history should be easily preserved in the fossil record. But evolutionists have alternatively claimed that tuataras, lizards, and snakes are their closest relatives. However, from a molecular point of view, birds and crocodiles should be their "living sister group". And now a turtle fossil has been discovered in Upper Triassic strata in China, presumed to be 220 million years in age. The paper published on this discovery contained the candid admission, "The new discovery of the beautifully preserved fossil O. semitestacea produces more questions than it answers, reopening questions of turtle origins, shell evolution, and original paleoecology." (Reference: Lyson, T. and Gilbert, S., Turtles all the way down: loggerheads at the root of the chelonian tree, Evolution & Development 11(2):133-135, 2009.)

Evolutionists on this forum may object that science is all about asking questions and finding solutions to dilemmas. But, finally, enough riddles should debilitate the credibility of a theory.

The biblical creationist position accommodates the loggerhead turtle with ease, since turtles were created by God as a specific kind of animal that will always reproduce after its own kind. And Noah's Flood is an easy answer for the existence of "beautifully preserved" turtle fossils. But, as the article says in closing, "...this explanation only works for those who don't want to 'deliberately forget' --2 Peter 3:5-6."
Would you please highlight the part where you "defy evolutionary explanation," because I missed that part.
 
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Split Rock

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And there is a vast difference between the hypothetical "reality" of evolution and the established existence of mathematics. This is why scientists such as John R Rankin can be biblical creationists and possess a B.S. with first class honours in applied mathematics.

Another example of how knowledge of applied mathematics does not replace an understanding of biology .. like, the fact that biological evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with galaxy formation.
 
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Thobewill

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You know, most animals, vertebrate or invertebrate, have an innate magnetic field sensing ability. It's unused in some, but in others, like the Loggerhead, or migratory birds, it's much stronger. It has evolved multiple times, in several different ways on our planet.

The field sensing ability (in loggerheads and birds) is not as complicated as one might think. It derives from a protein called cryptochrome (in the retinas) and magnetite in the snout or beak of the animal. This essentially allows the animal to "see" the magnetic field and orient themselves toward it.

I could not find anything referencing the evolution of such a feature, however...

Just because we don't know how it happened doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

Creationists are quick to latch onto uncertainty in the evolutionary field. However, all sciences have uncertainty, and it is in those areas that progress is made. When those uncertainties are resolved, more pop up. 'Tis the way of Science.

Now, I am no expert in this field, and if someone else has a better explanation and knows how these features evolved (they are different in different organisms), they are by all means welcome to share it.
 
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selfinflikted

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Just because we don't know how it happened doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

Creationists are quick to latch onto uncertainty in the evolutionary field. However, all sciences have uncertainty, and it is in those areas that progress is made. When those uncertainties are resolved, more pop up. 'Tis the way of Science.

Science, evolution, whatever hasn't explained it! Goddidit!

(god of the gaps, to a "T")
 
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Thobewill

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Science, evolution, whatever hasn't explained it! Goddidit!

(god of the gaps, to a "T")

It's kinda like this:

You see lights in the sky. You say..
Bystander who saw lights said:
I don't know what they are...
...Which is correct. You don't know. But then you go on to say
...it must be aliens from outer space who traveled across the stars to experiment on us and abduct us...
...Which is wrong. The conversation should end at "I don't know"

We won't know until science finds out. Most of science is being in ignorance, working your way out of it, and into a whole new batch of ignorance. You cannot be a scientist if you are not comfortable in ignorance. You cannot infer anything from lack of knowledge.

(Taken from a Neil Degrasse Tyson lecture, in a part about aliens)
Believe in UFOs? [VIDEO]
 
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selfinflikted

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The conversation should end at "I don't know"

Ah, but see... They *think* they do know. Or at least, trick themselves into believing that they do. I have come to the conclusion that for some people "I don't know." is just not an acceptable answer. Something, anything, for some people is better than "I don't know."
 
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Thobewill

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Ah, but see... They *think* they do know. Or at least, trick themselves into believing that they do. I have come to the conclusion that for some people "I don't know." is just not an acceptable answer. Something, anything, for some people is better than "I don't know."

Too true.
 
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So the consensus is that the evolutionists just don't know exactly how to explain the loggerheads? You may be satisfied with not knowing, but I am satisfied with knowing that God is Truth and His explanation fits this data much more congruently than does the evolutionary one.

I am becoming immensely amused at the extreme flexibility of evolution theory. Until I pulled away from daily reading creation.com and started listening to comments on this forum, I actually didn't realize how pitiful the attempted rescue of evolutionary ideas can become. My conclusion? It is impossible to refute a theory whose adherents can always comfort themselves with the fact that science just doesn't know all the facts. In other words, if a tight spot should ever come for an evolutionist, it suddenly seems plausible enough to assert that since evolution theory involves a lot of conundrums, it is thus "science" and thus somehow gains an authoritative air.

Really now guys, just what is it about this changing and undependable science that you so much cherish? Would you not rather live a life revolving around the absolutes stated in God's Word? Stop by at Anabaptist Faith | e-Literature, Sermon Audio, conservative Mennonite Resources to see some of what such a life would involve.
 
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So, "captivating graphics," impresses you, huh? Guess that's why the Creation Museum makes so much money. Also, does the fact that there are people who's theology and scientific understanding are both poor in more than 100 countries somehow lend credence to anything written in this "high quality" magazine?
I anticipated just such a response. That is why I made sure I inserted that sentence beginning with "But it goes far beyond that..."


One would think that if evolution was wrong, you guys would be able to falsify it based on general principles, rather than pick at it with the tongue of the woodpecker, and such.
I thought I had discussed the inadequacy of its general principles. Recall our discussion regarding the inability of natural selection and mutations to add any significant amount of information to the genome.


So, you go back to a quote mined from 1949? I am not impressed.
Indeed, I go back thousands of years and unashamedly base my beliefs on the Word of the Creator Himself, who made animals such as loggerheads that defy evolutionary explanation.


Reference for this quote?
Keim, B., Navigational 'magic' of sea turtles explained, Wired Science, wired.com/wiredscience/2011/02/turtle-navigation/, 24 February 2011.


Wow, another quote mined out of context. At least this one is from the current century. But of course in science when we answer one question, it usually leads to two more. What does that prove?
Again, the flexibility of evolution is admitted, making disproving an unfair impossibility.

Riddles do nothing to falsify a theory. Evidence that contradicts it, falsifies a theory. So far, there still isn't any that falsifies evolution.
Further evidence that evolution remains unfalsifiable to the strong adherent.


How so? Are you claiming there was a "loggerhead turtle" kind on the ark, and not just a "turtle" kind? Did this method of navigation evolve (or "hyper" evolve) after the Flood? Or did God put this navigation ability into his "turtle" kind just so Loggerhead turtles could later travel long distances because he thought that it would be cool?
There was probably only one turtle kind on the ark. This method of navigation would have been programed during Creation week. I think God had a lot of artistic talent when He created. Just think of all the colours out there that would be unnecessary from a natural point of view. Colours that can hardly be explained by natural selection, such as those found in the peacock's tail.

More to the point, what evidence would potentially falsify the "biblical creationist position?" Is there any? If not, what is the point of stating that biblical creationism "accommodates the loggerhead turtle with ease." Isn't anything and everything accomodated by biblical creationism "with ease?"
The same could be said of evolution, could it not?
 
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What's wrong with admitting we don't know?
Nothing. Until Judgment Day rolls around and you find yourself held accountable for the things you could have known but brushed aside with "I just don't know". That, my friends, is a sobering thought.
 
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Thobewill

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Nothing. Until Judgment Day rolls around and you find yourself held accountable for the things you could have known but brushed aside with "I just don't know". That, my friends, is a sobering thought.

I will be judged at judgement day for my lack of knowledge concerning the evolution of mangetoreceptors in loggerheads! Woe is me.
 
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I will be judged at judgement day for my lack of knowledge concerning the evolution of mangetoreceptors in loggerheads! Woe is me.
Consider instead your lack of knowledge concerning the origin of such fantastic features as this turtle possesses.
 
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Split Rock

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So the consensus is that the evolutionists just don't know exactly how to explain the loggerheads? You may be satisfied with not knowing, but I am satisfied with knowing that God is Truth and His explanation fits this data much more congruently than does the evolutionary one.
So we are correct in assuming that the only answer that you will accept is one that "satisfies" you and makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside... rather than one that has explanatory power?


I am becoming immensely amused at the extreme flexibility of evolution theory. Until I pulled away from daily reading creation.com and started listening to comments on this forum, I actually didn't realize how pitiful the attempted rescue of evolutionary ideas can become. My conclusion? It is impossible to refute a theory whose adherents can always comfort themselves with the fact that science just doesn't know all the facts. In other words, if a tight spot should ever come for an evolutionist, it suddenly seems plausible enough to assert that since evolution theory involves a lot of conundrums, it is thus "science" and thus somehow gains an authoritative air.
No, all you have to do is provide evidence that falsifies the theory of evolution. Just bringing up questions we don't currently have all the answers for is not sufficient. Because that would invalidate every scientific theory we have.

Really now guys, just what is it about this changing and undependable science that you so much cherish? Would you not rather live a life revolving around the absolutes stated in God's Word? Stop by at Anabaptist Faith | e-Literature, Sermon Audio, conservative Mennonite Resources to see some of what such a life would involve.
Look around you at the technology that science has provided and you take for granted every single day. That demonstrates the dependability of science.. not a bunch of platitudes about what makes you feel good and secure inside.

I anticipated just such a response. That is why I made sure I inserted that sentence beginning with "But it goes far beyond that..."
Then why bother mentioning it?


When you can define "information" and tell us what an increase in "information" of a genome would look like, then we can discuss how natural selection and mutations can add information to the genome.

Indeed, I go back thousands of years and unashamedly base my beliefs on the Word of the Creator Himself, who made animals such as loggerheads that defy evolutionary explanation.
Irrelevant.



Keim, B., Navigational 'magic' of sea turtles explained, Wired Science, wired.com/wiredscience/2011/02/turtle-navigation/, 24 February 2011.
OK, thanks.



Again, the flexibility of evolution is admitted, making disproving an unfair impossibility.
Nonsense. Evolution is easily disproved, if the evidence is out there. For example: find a genetic sequence of a whale which bares closer homology to a tuna than to a cow. Or find a chimera with bird feathers and a snake's head that feeds milk to its young. Find a Cambrian layer with the bones of cattle and sheep. The list is endless.

Further evidence that evolution remains unfalsifiable to the strong adherent.
How does asking for evidence that falsifies evolution provide you with further evidence that evolution is "unfalsifiable to the strong adherent?"


There was probably only one turtle kind on the ark. This method of navigation would have been programed during Creation week. I think God had a lot of artistic talent when He created. Just think of all the colours out there that would be unnecessary from a natural point of view. Colours that can hardly be explained by natural selection, such as those found in the peacock's tail.
Why are the peacock's feather colors not explanable by evolution? do you just attach the label, "not explanable by evolution" to everything that you or some creationist mathematician cannot figure out yourselves?


The same could be said of evolution, could it not?
Not at all. I gave you a few examples of how evolution is potentially falsifiable. Can you give me any for "biblical creationism?"
 
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