Living a lie

[DarkProphet]

Here is my friends situation. He is part of a Christian program for many years now but a few years ago, after much investigation, he lost his faith. Now he is faced with a dilemma, he has to live a lie to be a part of the program. It's a large part of his life so leaving it would not be easy.

My friend is not the only one in this type of situation. A few kids in the program have confided that they are not Christian but cannot tell their parents for fear of repercussions.

What are your thoughts on this type of situation?

 

[seashale76]

Here is my friends situation. He is part of a Christian program for many years now but a few years ago, after much investigation, he lost his faith. Now he is faced with a dilemma, he has to live a lie to be a part of the program. It's a large part of his life so leaving it would not be easy.

My friend is not the only one in this type of situation. A few kids in the program have confided that they are not Christian but cannot tell their parents for fear of repercussions.

What are your thoughts on this type of situation?

What sort of program are we talking about here? As far as I'm concerned, Christians should help people despite what they believe. The only time it would ever be an issue was if the non-believers were partaking of sacraments.

However, people shouldn't lie either. The truth is always preferable. I know from personal experience how parents can react when their children don't share their beliefs and the truth comes out. It is extremely unpleasant. However, I certainly wouldn't spare myself any of the trouble telling the truth caused me if I could go back and change things. We all got over it- well- I did anyway. I can't speak for my parents.

 

[ebia]

Here is my friends situation. He is part of a Christian program for many years now but a few years ago, after much investigation, he lost his faith. Now he is faced with a dilemma, he has to live a lie to be a part of the program. It's a large part of his life so leaving it would not be easy.

My friend is not the only one in this type of situation. A few kids in the program have confided that they are not Christian but cannot tell their parents for fear of repercussions.

What are your thoughts on this type of situation?

Sometimes there are no easy answers.

 

[DarkProphet]

What sort of program are we talking about here? As far as I'm concerned, Christians should help people despite what they believe. The only time it would ever be an issue was if the non-believers were partaking of sacraments.

He is a volunteer at church youth program, I help out from time to time too. All his friends are part of the program and, other then me, think he is still a Christian.

However, people shouldn't lie either. The truth is always preferable. I know from personal experience how parents can react when their children don't share their beliefs and the truth comes out. It is extremely unpleasant. However, I certainly wouldn't spare myself any of the trouble telling the truth caused me if I could go back and change things. We all got over it- well- I did anyway. I can't speak for my parents.

When did you tell them? My friend is 30 and is still afraid to tell his parents. Some of the kids are 12 years old, living with that kind of pressure cannot be healthy.

 

[seashale76]

He is a volunteer at church youth program, I help out from time to time too. All his friends are part of the program and, other then me, think he is still a Christian.

When did you tell them? My friend is 30 and is still afraid to tell his parents. Some of the kids are 12 years old, living with that kind of pressure cannot be healthy.

I told them when I was in my mid-twenties. However, the real problems came when I became Orthodox (I was thirty then). They took the news that I considered myself a deist and had no intention of ever going to church again much better than the whole conversion to Orthodox Christianity thing. It has gotten better over time, though it was very difficult for a while. I think they took the deist thing better because they knew all about my horrible experiences in church growing up and understood why I never wanted to go to one again and figured it was a phase (which it was- but it very nearly wasn't). They still don't get the Orthodox thing, but accusing me of joining a cult and being on the way to hell really didn't get me to want to be baptiscostal again, so they've let up.

Unfortunately, I have some friends at church whose parents (and some of their friends) practically disowned them and/or over-reacted negatively when they converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. I sympathize with your friend, but he's going to have to get to the place where he can move on and not live a lie anymore. It can be a debilitating fear. It was the hardest decision to tell my parents and go through with things- but the aftermath wasn't nearly as bad as my fear of how they would react.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Here is my friends situation. He is part of a Christian program for many years now but a few years ago, after much investigation, he lost his faith. Now he is faced with a dilemma, he has to live a lie to be a part of the program. It's a large part of his life so leaving it would not be easy.

My friend is not the only one in this type of situation. A few kids in the program have confided that they are not Christian but cannot tell their parents for fear of repercussions.

What are your thoughts on this type of situation?

Wait a second! You mean there are tares in Christian churches??? Why didn't somebody tell us this before??? Oh, wait...

 

[Van]

Tares in the Church! What should we do? Weed them out? What does the Bible say?

Food for thought, Dark Prophet.

God hates liars.

Lying is the enabling technology of evil.

A liar will say, "Everybody lies" but the Christian response is "Well, that is certainly what all liars believe."

What does the Devil whisper in our ear? "It is not really bad," "no one will know" and "everybody does it."

 

[DarkProphet]

Wait a second! You mean there are tares in Christian churches??? Why didn't somebody tell us this before??? Oh, wait...

I think you are missing the point. It's not that they are lying it's that they feel that they HAVE to lie.

 

[DarkProphet]

Tares in the Church! What should we do? Weed them out? What does the Bible say?

The church in question has kicked people out for "unchristian" behavior.

Food for thought, Dark Prophet.

God hates liars.

Lying is the enabling technology of evil.

A liar will say, "Everybody lies" but the Christian response is "Well, that is certainly what all liars believe."

What does the Devil whisper in our ear? "It is not really bad," "no one will know" and "everybody does it."

Again missing the point, they feel that they HAVE to lie because of their situation. Would you really recommend that my friend tell his family and the church knowing that both might shun him? What about the kids? Should they tell the truth and deal with their parents berating them for the rest of their lives?

 

[Bro_Sam]

I think you are missing the point. It's not that they are lying it's that they feel that they HAVE to lie.

Everybody lies because they feel they have to lie. The motive behind every lie is, "This is what I have to do to get what I want."

The church in question has kicked people out for "unchristian" behavior.

Churches that follow the Bible? What is this world coming to?

 

[Van]

Hi Dark Prophet,

Do you really believe folks cannot "attend" church while not being "born again?"
Have you never heard of an "altar call?" Yes, "membership" in a church requires belief (demonstrated by adherence) in the beliefs of the church. So a guy who says it is ok to lie in order to stay connected would not be welcome as a member or a lay leader. But, provided he was not factious, he would certainly be welcome as an attender so folks could gently try to turn him from his errant ways.

I am surprised you seem unfamiliar with the "ends versus means" question. Say I am late for my sons graduation. He wants his father to witness his achievement. So I drive faster than the speed limit. Is that ok according to your morals. It was for a good cause. No, God teaches that it is never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right.

 

[DarkProphet]

Everybody lies because they feel they have to lie. The motive behind every lie is, "This is what I have to do to get what I want."

In this case what they want is to not get expelled from the only community they know and shunned by their parents.

Churches that follow the Bible? What is this world coming to?

Some interpretations of the tare parable say that they shouldn't kick them out for being false Christians.

 

[Bro_Sam]

In this case what they want is to not get expelled from the only community they know and shunned by their parents.

Right. They want to continue on fooling these churches and violating the covenant they made with them and so they have to lie to avoid being kicked out.

Some interpretations of the tare parable say that they shouldn't kick them out for being false Christians.

Wait a second, you didn't say they were disfellowshipped for being tares, but for "Unchristian behavior". Which is it?

 

[DarkProphet]

Do you really believe folks cannot "attend" church while not being "born again?" Have you never heard of an "altar call?" Yes, "membership" in a church requires belief (demonstrated by adherence) in the beliefs of the church. So a guy who says it is ok to lie in order to stay connected would not be welcome as a member or a lay leader. But, provided he was not factious, he would certainly be welcome as an attender so folks could gently try to turn him from his errant ways.

That is the ideal but the church already view them as "members" and this church is less then welcoming to non-members.

I am surprised you seem unfamiliar with the "ends versus means" question. Say I am late for my sons graduation. He wants his father to witness his achievement. So I drive faster than the speed limit. Is that ok according to your morals. It was for a good cause. No, God teaches that it is never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right.

I suppose that would apply to my friend as if he said he was not a Christian then he would (presumably) be kicked out of the program by the church and the program would collapse (he is actually a main staff there). However, would you really suggest to the kids that they tell their parents that they are not Christian? They are not acting out of some "ends versus means" justification, they have genuine FEAR, and from what I've seen that fear is justified.

 

[DarkProphet]

Right. They want to continue on fooling these churches and violating the covenant they made with them and so they have to lie to avoid being kicked out.

Yes. Considering that their whole lives are wrapped up in the church I imagine it would be hard for them if they were kicked out.

Wait a second, you didn't say they were disfellowshipped for being tares, but for "Unchristian behavior". Which is it?

I'm thinking of a specific example of a woman who divorced her husband. I know there are others in this specific church who have been kicked out for varies reasons like that.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Yes. Considering that their whole lives are wrapped up in the church I imagine it would be hard for them if they were kicked out.

OK. So then, like I said, they're choosing to lie so they can continue on in a lifestyle they find to their liking.

I'm thinking of a specific example of a woman who divorced her husband. I know there are others in this specific church who have been kicked out for varies reasons like that.

So then why did you say they were being kicked out for being tares?

 

[DarkProphet]

OK. So then, like I said, they're choosing to lie so they can continue on in a lifestyle they find to their liking.

If by lifestyle you mean their friends and family then yes.

So then why did you say they were being kicked out for being tares?

How would the church know they are tares? They only kick people out for actions.

I think you are confused where I said that they shouldn't kick people out because of different interpretations.

 

[seashale76]

I don't know what to say, Dark Prophet. It's difficult and I do sympathize. There's nothing worse than feeling that the love and friendship of others is conditional. It's not supposed to be that way. Being shunned by church people, many of whom you've invited into your home and occasionally even vacationed with, or have known for years, etc., can be awful. Especially when they act like they don't know you when you run into them. It hurts- but you can move on from this- and eventually forgive these people. If they really feel that way, then not being around you is doing you a favor.

I do still stick with what I said though. Please tell your friend that he needs to realize he's only prolonging his own misery by keeping things the way they currently are. He has to get to the point where he comes clean about it, despite the consequences he knows will come. It's not worth it to live a lie. Also, do let him know that not all churches out there do the shunning thing like this. Really.

I think it's different in non-sacramental churches. In a sacramental church, we wouldn't let a non-believer partake of the sacraments for their own protection. However, we wouldn't deny them entrance in our activities, friendship, etc. Of course, we wouldn't have a non-ordained person in charge of youth anyway.

Also, regarding the young teens: I'm a firm believer in open communication between parents and their children. It's always sad when kids feel they can't tell their parents things. Sometimes those fears are unfounded and sometimes they are- however- it shouldn't be assumed (even in a church like the one you describe) that all parents are going to reject their offspring. There are no easy answers here, and many teens will go through so many phases that it will make your head spin. Next week, these same kids could swing the pendulum back in the opposite direction on what they believe. Worst case scenario is a kid keeping their belief differences from their parents until they are eighteen and can legally choose to do what they please. It's life.

 

[seashale76]

LITANY AGAINST FEAR

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.


Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear - From Frank Herbert's Dune Book Series
© 1965 and 1984 Frank Herbert
Published by Putnam Pub Group
ISBN: 0399128964

 

[DarkProphet]

I don't know what to say, Dark Prophet. It's difficult and I do sympathize. There's nothing worse than feeling that the love and friendship of others is conditional. It's not supposed to be that way. Being shunned by church people, many of whom you've invited into your home and occasionally even vacationed with, or have known for years, etc., can be awful. Especially when they act like they don't know you when you run into them. It hurts- but you can move on from this- and eventually forgive these people. If they really feel that way, then not being around you is doing you a favor.

Just feel all the conditional Christian love.

I do still stick with what I said though. Please tell your friend that he needs to realize he's only prolonging his own misery by keeping things the way they currently are. He has to get to the point where he comes clean about it, despite the consequences he knows will come. It's not worth it to live a lie. Also, do let him know that not all churches out there do the shunning thing like this. Really.

Aye, I do tell him that but like you said there are no easy answers.

I think it's different in non-sacramental churches. In a sacramental church, we wouldn't let a non-believer partake of the sacraments for their own protection. However, we wouldn't deny them entrance in our activities, friendship, etc.

This is bit different though because he went from Christian to non-Christian.

Of course, we wouldn't have a non-ordained person in charge of youth anyway.

To be clear, he is not in charge and does not give Bible lessons (the director does that) but he does so much that without him the program would collapse.

Also, regarding the young teens: I'm a firm believer in open communication between parents and their children. It's always sad when kids feel they can't tell their parents things. Sometimes those fears are unfounded and sometimes they are- however- it shouldn't be assumed (even in a church like the one you describe) that all parents are going to reject their offspring.

And if they tell and the parents DO reject them then what? Like I said my friend is 30 and afraid to tell his parents for fear of rejection, and they are less Christian then most of the parents at this church.

There are no easy answers here, and many teens will go through so many phases that it will make your head spin. Next week, these same kids could swing the pendulum back in the opposite direction on what they believe.

Yes, after they become drunks and then go to AA and then they can tell people their testimony. At least that's what I've seen.

Worst case scenario is a kid keeping their belief differences from their parents until they are eighteen and can legally choose to do what they please. It's life.

Nowadays most people, especially in my area, cannot live independently at 18 so it's not so simple as that either.