Live Streaming of General Conference

[revanneosl]

I think that buying a copy of the Discipline & attempting to just read it through would be completely baffling for somebody from outside the Methosphere. I wish I had a better suggestion for a starting point, but the Discipline is a Canon Law book, and not at all oriented toward providing an easy entre for outsiders.

 

[actionsub]

I think that buying a copy of the Discipline & attempting to just read it through would be completely baffling for somebody from outside the Methosphere. I wish I had a better suggestion for a starting point, but the Discipline is a Canon Law book, and not at all oriented toward providing an easy entre for outsiders.

Even for someone within Methodism, it's not exactly light reading.

 

[Dave-W]

I received this email update from my friend in Jerusalem Barry Segal and his JNN news team.

METHODIST CHURCH WITHDRAWS FROM ANTI-ISRAEL COALITION- REJECTS ISRAEL DIVESTMENT: The United Methodist Church (UMC) voted down four resolutions that called on the Church to divest from companies doing business with Israel. At its May 10-20 General Conference in Portland, Ore., the UMC also voted—478 in favor and 318 against—to withdraw its membership, financial support, and staff participation from the “U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation,” a coalition encouraging boycotts of Israel. “This one-sided political coalition’s website (www. endtheoccupation. org) reveals that its agenda includes seeking ‘to isolate Israel economically, socially, and culturally,’ and promoting ‘comprehensive divestment’ against Israel, while overlooking anti-Israel aggression,” stated the UMC petition that called for withdrawal from the anti-Israel coalition. “Blaming only one side while ignoring the wrongdoing of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran will not advance the cause of peace.” Roz Rothstein, CEO of the pro-Israel education and advocacy group StandWithUs, said, “By severing its ties with anti-Israel groups, the UMC has reaffirmed its role as an agent of reconciliation and peacemaking between Israelis and Palestinians.” (Algemeiner) A victorious report!

 

[GraceSeeker]

I think that buying a copy of the Discipline & attempting to just read it through would be completely baffling for somebody from outside the Methosphere. I wish I had a better suggestion for a starting point, but the Discipline is a Canon Law book, and not at all oriented toward providing an easy entre for outsiders.

All true. But I don't have a better suggestion, do you? The links at the top of the WP forum here in CF already offer access to the "UMC for Dummies" type stuff. It takes some wading through, but you're not going to understand the UMC with a thimble-full of information. And if those links aren't proving to be sufficient, then the only other thing I know to do is dive all the way in.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I received this email update from my friend in Jerusalem Barry Segal and his JNN news team.

METHODIST CHURCH WITHDRAWS FROM ANTI-ISRAEL COALITION- REJECTS ISRAEL DIVESTMENT: The United Methodist Church (UMC) voted down four resolutions that called on the Church to divest from companies doing business with Israel. At its May 10-20 General Conference in Portland, Ore., the UMC also voted—478 in favor and 318 against—to withdraw its membership, financial support, and staff participation from the “U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation,” a coalition encouraging boycotts of Israel. “This one-sided political coalition’s website (www. endtheoccupation. org) reveals that its agenda includes seeking ‘to isolate Israel economically, socially, and culturally,’ and promoting ‘comprehensive divestment’ against Israel, while overlooking anti-Israel aggression,” stated the UMC petition that called for withdrawal from the anti-Israel coalition. “Blaming only one side while ignoring the wrongdoing of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran will not advance the cause of peace.” Roz Rothstein, CEO of the pro-Israel education and advocacy group StandWithUs, said, “By severing its ties with anti-Israel groups, the UMC has reaffirmed its role as an agent of reconciliation and peacemaking between Israelis and Palestinians.” (Algemeiner) A victorious report!

Score 1 for the good guys.

 

[St Antony]

It looks like the can got kicked; at least for a year or two. It appears the LGBT activists are none too happy about this either.

Also, while I am certainly glad the Conference voted against BDS, the fact that 318 delegates still supported this idea (which is basically thinly veiled anti-Semitism) is troubling.

 

[hedrick]

I'm hoping one of our Methodist experts will eventually comment on the significance of the bishops' commission. It sounds to me like the proposal assumes at least a tentative commitment to working out a way for parts of the Church to accept gays. But that's based on press accounts, and I think we've got people here who have more direct information.

 

[circuitrider]

I'm hoping one of our Methodist experts will eventually comment on the significance of the bishops' commission. It sounds to me like the proposal assumes at least a tentative commitment to working out a way for parts of the Church to accept gays. But that's based on press accounts, and I think we've got people here who have more direct information.

It is too early to tell and anything I say is just my speculations. So please hear this that way.

I think the commission will certainly discuss how the two sides of the sexuality issues can stay together in the UMC. I don't think the answer is likely to be that the two sides can stay together without some change in policy for those who want to perform same sex marriages and accept that in their local church.

So my best guess (only a guess at a this point) is that a proposal may come out which changes the whole concept of how our Discipline works. We already have huge international differences in culture and beliefs between our US delegates and our delegates outside the US on other issues besides homosexuality.

The idea has been floated in other venues of a much smaller Global Book of Discipline which would contain things we all must agree on. And then allow for variation either by jurisdiction or annual conference.

Because we aren't Congregationalists and because we have an appointment system, I hope that we don't go to a local church by church vote. I think this would cause local church fights all over the denomination. I think at least each conference is going to have to have its own policy. Then clergy who cannot live with the policy of the conference (or jurisdiction) could transfer to one that agrees with their views.

This may not be at all what is proposed by the commission. I have no inside track. I am simply a pastor of a United Methodist local church and not a GC insider. But if everything stays exactly as it is with all the acrimony and no change in church law I foresee an eventual split of one side or the other finally giving up and pulling out. I believe we have to come to some middle ground here in the US on this issue.

My biggest fear is that the Bishops might propose a wonderful plan only to have it voted down by people who want to maintain the status quo. The problem is that we are seeing that the status quo can't be maintained.

 

[St Antony]

How many years before the African districts outnumber North American ones? It doesn't seem like it will be very long and certainly the Africans will demand a proportional share of delegates at any future GC. The die seems cast and as the pro-LGBT faction loses influence (due to reduced numbers), many of these members will leave the UMC and go to other pro-LGBT denominations.

 

[circuitrider]

How many years before the African districts outnumber North American ones? It doesn't seem like it will be very long and certainly the Africans will demand a proportional share of delegates at any future GC. The die seems cast and as the pro-LGBT faction loses influence (due to reduced numbers), many of these members will leave the UMC and go to other pro-LGBT denominations.

They already get proportional representation at GC, about 30% of the delegates right now.

But those who support the LGBT community won't lose influence as fast as you might think since the support of that community is growing in the US. Also a factor in the whole discussion is that while those outside the US are growing in number most of the money is coming from the US. This means that Africa doesn't want the denomination to split as they lose a huge amount of their financial support do to loss of connection to whoever leaves and the enormous cost of a split.

 

[St Antony]

They already get proportional representation at GC, about 30% of the delegates right now.

But those who support the LGBT community won't lose influence as fast as you might think since the support of that community is growing in the US. Also a factor in the whole discussion is that while those outside the US are growing in number most of the money is coming from the US. This means that Africa doesn't want the denomination to split as they lose a huge amount of their financial support do to loss of connection to whoever leaves and the enormous cost of a split.

Good point about the financial impact of a split. However, staying yoked for this reason really a good idea? If the African communities are anti-LGBT and a growing part of the church, with North American communities largely pro-LGBT, steady or shrinking in numbers but with all of the financial resources, then the church may stay united but how is the impasse resolved?

 

[hedrick]

Experience in the PCUSA is that all attempts to allow for differences fail, because conservatives are unwilling to accept change anywhere in the denomination. I would guess you'll see the same.

But you have two big differences from us: some of your bishops seem unwilling to enforce the rules. We didn't have that problem exactly. We also didn't have the African issue. I'd be interested whether even your conservatives might be worried about the prospect of being in a denomination increasingly affected by African votes. These two things could conceivably make compromise more possible. But this is an issue where so far I haven't seen it.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I am going to rephrase that just a bit:

Experience in the PCUSA is that all attempts to allow for differences fail, because liberals are unwilling to accept the Bible anywhere in the denomination. I would guess you'll see the same.

It is a knife that cuts both ways......

 

[circuitrider]

I am going to rephrase that just a bit:

Experience in the PCUSA is that all attempts to allow for differences fail, because liberals are unwilling to accept the Bible anywhere in the denomination. I would guess you'll see the same.

It is a knife that cuts both ways......

Let me rephrase your rephrase. Experience in many denomonations has been that conservatives believe they own the Bible and that their interpretation is the only Biblcal one.

But the truth is that on sexuality issues as on other issues there two people who read the Bible and take it seriously don't always get the same answer out of the Bible.

I'm tired of the old conservative saw that liberals don't accept the Bible or believe the Bible. That is just flat not true.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Let me rephrase your rephrase. Experience in many denomonations has been that conservatives believe they own the Bible and that their interpretation is the only Biblcal one.

But the truth is that on sexuality issues as on other issues there two people who read the Bible and take it seriously don't always get the same answer out of the Bible.

I'm tired of the old conservative saw that liberals don't accept the Bible or believe the Bible. That is just flat not true.

I will let that pass as I am on your forum, not mine.....

 

[hedrick]

I'm trying to keep language as neutral as possible. As a non-Methodist, I make no statements about who is right and who is wrong. I observe simply that in the churches of which I am aware, all attempts to produce a compromise where both sides can conduct mission according to their understanding have failed when conservatives are in a position to control.

 

[circuitrider]

I will let that pass as I am on your forum, not mine.....

I appreciate your desire not to get into an argument on the forum. All I'd say is that I've never run into a Christian (liberal, moderate, conservative or fundamentalist) that didn't believe the way they were reading the Bible was the right way.

 

[circuitrider]

I'm trying to keep language as neutral as possible. As a non-Methodist, I make no statements about who is right and who is wrong. I observe simply that in the churches of which I am aware, all attempts to produce a compromise where both sides can conduct mission according to their understanding have failed when conservatives are in a position to control.

I am afraid that is a possibility. But I also believe we have a duty to try. I personally believe the multiplication of denominations over smaller and smaller theological issues is a mistake.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I was going to reply but as I stated above this is not my forum. I offer my prayers for UMC.....

 

[St Antony]

I am afraid that is a possibility. But I also believe we have a duty to try. I personally believe the multiplication of denominations over smaller and smaller theological issues is a mistake.

I don't think this will be the result. In the future, I think denominations will be less and less important.

Since issues concerning sexuality are coming to dominate theological discussion, Liberals/progressives/pro-LGBT, etc. will coalesce into a group of very similar churches ( I mean, what else really is different between progressive Methodists, Anglicans, UCC, even PCUSA groups?). Traditional Christians who oppose abortion, the LGBT movement, divorce, feminism, and other markers of the sexual revolution will coalesce into two groups; in the US, Roman Catholic if they worship in a High-Church manner and non-denominational/evangelical congregations if they favor Low-Church worship. The only caveat to this is that I can possibly see big increases in EO congregations, as I see traditionalists moving toward even more traditional styles of worship, liturgy and observance.

Either way, the mainline denominations will diminish in numbers and importance.