Literary Framework View & Exodus 20:11

[BNR32FAN]

Would you follow any man who says, "Leave all your possessions and come follow me" ???? The best explanation as to why people, particularly the disciples, pledged allegiance to Jesus is that the Inward Witness (Direct Revelation) convicted/convinced to them. We don't know the extent of that revelation , how informative and detailed it was, but to some degree it was certainly there, hence we must allow for that consideration in a debate like this one.

We know exactly why people followed Jesus, because they believed He was a prophet because of the miracles He performed. It doesn’t take any guesswork at all for people to know that, all it takes is for someone to read any of the gospels accounts for 10 minutes and they’ll know that. Your arguments are so far fetched and ridiculous that I’m just gonna stop. There’s no point in discussing this with you. You deny even the most elementary teachings of the scriptures so it’s no wonder why your theology is so far from being Orthodox.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Baloney. I subscribe to Covenant Theology - I find no distinctions between OT and NT saints.
Conversion isn't a stupid act of blind faith. It is FULLY warranted, and the human mind is too fallible to fully warrant it by its own flawed knowledge and reasoning. Therefore Calvin postulated the Inward Witness and almost all evangelical theologians have accepted it. The thing is, it can't just be for the moment of conversion, it must warrant my faith DAILY, which means a CONSTANT Inward Witness, hence a constant indwelling Spirit. Paul says:

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Rom 8)

When did that become true? Rest assured, it has ALWAYS been true.

Like I said before you don’t know the scriptures, you need to spend more time learning than teaching.

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No one who believed in Christ before His resurrection had the indwelling Holy Spirit. They believed because the gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it and bring people to salvation. You should really just quit while your behind to avoid any further embarrassment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

@BNR32FAN

I think I've adequately responded to your objections. If you think I missed anything crucial, please let me know.

Oh absolutely you’ve missed something extremely crucial, like where you got the idea that God had to acquire His powers over time? You completely dodged that question twice already. Yes the scriptures do teach the Trinity and it’s simple to post the verses that support that doctrine. I guarantee it’s impossible for you to post any scripture that implies that God had to acquire any of His abilities over time which is exactly why you’ve dodged that question twice already and even after me asking a third time right now you still won’t post anything to support this claim because it’s not taught in the scriptures.

 

[JAL]

We know exactly why people followed Jesus, because they believed He was a prophet because of the miracles He performed. It doesn’t take any guesswork at all for people to know that, all it takes is for someone to read any of the gospels accounts for 10 minutes and they’ll know that. Your arguments are so far fetched and ridiculous that I’m just gonna stop. There’s no point in discussing this with you. You deny even the most elementary teachings of the scriptures so it’s no wonder why your theology is so far from being Orthodox.

I'd be surprised if you're fooling anyone with so many shallow responses like that one. You say it's farfetched that we need the Inward Witness of the Spirit to INFALLIBLY recognize who the true Christ is? (Tell it to Paul before He got converted by the Inward Witness). Contrary to what you say:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44).

Emphasis on INFALLIBLY recognize the true religion, the true gospel, the true Christ. Your position is absurd.

 

[JAL]

Like I said before you don’t know the scriptures, you need to spend more time learning than teaching.

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

YOU (too) have to qualify that verse. YOU (too) have to admit that the Spirit HAD been given, at least in some sense, or at least to some individuals, in the OT. You cannot read that verse without qualification. We both qualify the verse - we just differ on the qualification. The pot should not call the kettle black. MY qualification is that the passage is referring to the promised Pentecost-outpouring - probably the greatest reviving outpouring of church history, that literally rocked almost the entire planet Earth by the time the revival waned and the apostles died.

Take a hard look at Galatians 3, starting with Galatians 3:6 where Abraham is adduced as proof of verse 3:5 that the Spirit is received through the hearing of faith. The chapter is talking about the promised Spirit as the Abrahamic inheritance. Now here's the key: an heir receives from his forefathers what they already enjoyed!!! This proves that the OT saints DID possess the Holy Spirit!

You can also reach this conclusion by logical construct. Nobody is saved by good works, hence Christ's atonement was retroactive to OT saints. Since we don't get a better cross than they did, we therefore don't get better grace - they got the same grace (the same Holy Spirit) as we, in fact that argument is the very tenor of Galtians 3.

No one who believed in Christ before His resurrection had the indwelling Holy Spirit. They believed because the gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it and bring people to salvation. You should really just quit while your behind to avoid any further embarrassment.

That "power" was the indwelling Spirit. If God stirs up saving faith, but departs from the heart instead of remaining to sustain it, then a fallible human being (picture a child, or an old man with Alzheimers, or a mentally handicapped person), could easily lose his saving faith. Again, your position is absurd.

 

[JAL]

Oh absolutely you’ve missed something extremely crucial, like where you got the idea that God had to acquire His powers over time? You completely dodged that question twice already. Yes the scriptures do teach the Trinity and it’s simple to post the verses that support that doctrine. I guarantee it’s impossible for you to post any scripture that implies that God had to acquire any of His abilities over time which is exactly why you’ve dodged that question twice already and even after me asking a third time right now you still won’t post anything to support this claim because it’s not taught in the scriptures.

Funny how I answer all your questions while you selectively answer mine - and then accuse ME of deflection! I didn't dodge the question as to "where I got this idea". From the start, I was quite clear on my reasons (none of which you've managed to discredit), and I was ALSO clear that my conclusion is a logical construct like the Trinity. Please debate with honesty.

I guarantee it’s impossible for you to post any scripture that implies that God had to acquire any of His abilities over time

This is the ridiculous childish game that people on this forum constantly play. In a debate they say, "If you can't prove your position 100%, then you must accept mine." How is your position the default? YOU are the one making the extraordinary claim that a person can have knowledge and skills without acquiring them (which contradicts everything we know for sure about people). There's no burden of proof on me. And I can't prove ANYTHING 100% - I can't even prove that you exist. Don't be childish.

I guarantee it’s impossible for you to post any scripture that implies that God had to acquire any of His abilities over time

Um..er...I was quite clear it's a logical construct like the Trinity. I'm not aware of any Scripture that explicitly states it. The logic is fairly compelling, and you confirm this by your obvious inability to refute the logic, and your selectivity in answering MY questions.

Here's more evidence for the logical construct. Is God the sort of person who:
....(A) has infinite, immutable knowledge and skills, and thus CANNOT learn anything new? OR
....(B) is capable of learning?
Answer:
...(1) Jesus learned, acquiring knowledge and skills over time.
...(2) Jesus is God.
...(3) Therefore God learns, acquiring knowledge and skills over time.

You DON'T get to rebut this by appealing to the THEORY of the Hypostatic Union (two natures in Christ) since that theory is incomprehensible. It is like speaking Chinese, it is humanly incoherent. I can provide 4 demonstrations that this theory is humanly incoherent/incomprehensible (a total of five if we count the scholars that can be cited on this point).

 

[JAL]

@BNR32FAN,

I still don't see anything missed. Feel free to apprise to me of anything - but this time please be a little more accurate when accusing me of deflection. I don't think you've established any deflection on my part.

 

[JAL]

@BNR32FAN,

And by the way, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm pretty sure I never stated that God acquired His power over time. I only talked about knowledge and skills, as I recall.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'd be surprised if you're fooling anyone with so many shallow responses like that one. You say it's farfetched that we need the Inward Witness of the Spirit to INFALLIBLY recognize who the true Christ is? (Tell it to Paul before He got converted by the Inward Witness). Contrary to what you say:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44).

Emphasis on INFALLIBLY recognize the true religion, the true gospel, the true Christ. Your position is absurd.

Your interpretation of John 6:44 contradicts John 7:39 and doesn’t take into consideration Romans 1:16 because you didn’t consider the very next verse in John 6.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬-‭45‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And they shall be taught of God” that’s what the gospel does, it teaches people about God. And “everyone who has heard and learned from The Father comes to Me” hence Romans 1:16 “it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”.

After Christ’s resurrection the gospel was sent out to ALL CREATION.

“And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hence Christ’s prediction in John 12:32

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit before they believe and the scriptures specifically state that many people believed before they received the indwelling Holy Spirit as I’ve already proven to you and you rejected what the scriptures specifically stated. But here I’ll show you even more examples of people who believed before they received the Holy Spirit.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These people believed the gospel yet they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came from Jerusalem and laid hands on them. So someone had to travel 35 miles from Samaria to Jerusalem then Peter & John had to travel 35 miles to Samaria. Average walking speed is about 3 miles per hour so traveling 70 miles would take at least 23 hours going in a straight line on flat terrain with no stops to rest and that’s if someone left immediately after they believed and were baptized and Peter & John left immediately upon hearing about these people. So these people believed at the very least for 24 hours before receiving the Holy Spirit. Realistically probably a couple of days.

Here’s another example of people who believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

“It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s another example of people who believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit except in this case it’s Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles on the night Jesus was arrested after they have been following Him for 3 years.

““But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16‬:‭5‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s another example of people who believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit that I already showed you.

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I know this is all probably just a waste of time because there’s no way your going to admit your wrong but the purpose of this post is to allow you to expose your refusal to accept what the scriptures teach in order to hang on to your precious false doctrine and pride. Your probably better just ignoring this post rather than replying to it because you’ll only end up digging your hole deeper than it already is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

@BNR32FAN,

And by the way, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm pretty sure I never stated that God acquired His power over time. I only talked about knowledge and skills, as I recall.

Powers, abilities, skills, are all basically the same thing and your still avoiding the question which is why you didn’t quote my post in this reply so that you can PRETEND to not know what I’m talking about when I specifically stated it in that post twice and already asked it in two other previous posts. Obviously you know exactly what question I’m referring to because you quoted a portion of the question and now your just hiding behind semantics to continue avoiding the question because like I said before it’s impossible for you to provide a single shred of evidence from the scriptures that God had to acquire any of His skills over time. Furthermore He didn’t have to acquire any knowledge either because He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, meaning all knowing, all powerful, in all time. Your just going from one error to the next and the next but they’re all being exposed by the scriptures because the scriptures only teach truth. We started out with your statement that creation had to take longer than 6 days otherwise it would not warrant the merit of praise because it was not laborsome or burdensome. Then I pointed out that Jesus’ miracles were not laborsome or burdensome and yet they merited praise and even proved that by quoting His Triumphant Entry which you said they praised Him because they knew He was God. Then I proved you wrong yet again by showing that the scriptures specifically state that they praised Him because they thought He was a prophet because of the miracles He performed. Then you went off on another wild journey about how God had to acquire His knowledge and skills over a period of time before He could perform those miracles and that these people knew He was God before His crucifixion because they had the indwelling Holy Spirit. Then I proved that no one had received the indwelling Spirit yet because He had not yet been gloried by quoting John 7:39. Then you went on yet another wild goose chase about how no one can believe with the indwelling Holy Spirit and I shot that error down yet again by posting like 5 or 6 verses that specifically show that people believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. I mean how long is this going to continue before you just stop or admit that your wrong? Don’t admit it to me that’s not important, what’s important is that you read these verses I’ve posted and reconsider your theology so that it doesn’t contradict these verses. That’s all that matters. There’s only one truth to God’s word.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Funny how I answer all your questions while you selectively answer mine - and then accuse ME of deflection! I didn't dodge the question as to "where I got this idea". From the start, I was quite clear on my reasons (none of which you've managed to discredit), and I was ALSO clear that my conclusion is a logical construct like the Trinity. Please debate with honesty.

here’s the entire conversation about God having to acquire His skills over time where I keep asking you to show me evidence supporting this statement and you repeatedly refuse to provide any.

You're insulting God if you praise Him for unstudied, unaccomplished, un-suffered, lazy-sloth skills. His healing merits praise for two reasons:
- He ACQUIRED that skill over time.
- He COMMITTED to dying on the cross to pay for our sins. Otherwise He couldn't grant us healing mercies in the first place.

In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God. He didn’t have to acquire anything. I have no idea where you got that idea. Do you believe that Jesus was God at the time of His incarnation? And your changing the subject, Jesus was praised before His crucifixion and before anyone knew that He would be crucified. What do you think Hosanna means?

Yes you do. You've read my posts and seem frustrated for lack of ample refutation.

First of all, Direct Revelation is authoritative. Whenever the Inward Witness of the Holy Spirit convicted/convinced someone that God deserves praise, that injunction was binding even if they didn't comprehend why. The truth is, however, is that most biblical saints were advanced of us - they were not steeped in Plato's Greek philosophy like we are, hence they KNEW that God had labored/suffered to acquire His knowledge and skills.

Where do you get the idea that Jesus had to “acquire” the skill to heal people over time?

No, the incarnate Jesus didn't heal anyone. On earth, He had to avail of the Father's knowledge and power via availing of the Third Person. Just like a modern healer would do today.

The Three jointly acquired those healing skills, before and during creation, via ages of labor/suffering.

And your just pulling this out of thin air because this is not discussed in the scriptures.

Um.er..Scripture teaches that God worked/labored and rested. It was YOUR decision to insinuate that Moses was lying when he claimed that God engaged in work/labor/suffering, followed by engaging in real rest.

I think I've adequately responded to your objections. If you think I missed anything crucial, please let me know.

And nowhere does Scripture mention the word Trinity. It's a logical construct.

If you believe that God's ways are higher than our ways, higher than the heavens above the earth, you need to listen carefully to my assertions about merit.

Oh absolutely you’ve missed something extremely crucial, like where you got the idea that God had to acquire His powers over time? You completely dodged that question twice already. Yes the scriptures do teach the Trinity and it’s simple to post the verses that support that doctrine. I guarantee it’s impossible for you to post any scripture that implies that God had to acquire any of His abilities over time which is exactly why you’ve dodged that question twice already and even after me asking a third time right now you still won’t post anything to support this claim because it’s not taught in the scriptures.

Nowhere do the scriptures ever state that God had to acquire any of His abilities. What you pulled out of thin air is your statement that “The Three jointly acquired those healing skills, before creation, via ages of labor/suffering”. This is not biblical. What verse did you get this information from?

BTW, I didn't mean to say that God acquired His healing skills BEFORE creation. (I make typos due to aging, poor health, poor memory, poor concentration). Morely likely he acquired these skills during the 13 billion year creation period.

And by the way, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm pretty sure I never stated that God acquired His power over time. I only talked about knowledge and skills, as I recall.

Powers, abilities, skills, are all basically the same thing and your still avoiding the question which is why you didn’t quote my post in this reply so that you can PRETEND to not know what I’m talking about when I specifically stated it in that post twice and already asked it in two other previous posts. Obviously you know exactly what question I’m referring to because you quoted a portion of the question and now your just hiding behind semantics to continue avoiding the question because like I said before it’s impossible for you to provide a single shred of evidence from the scriptures that God had to acquire any of His skills over time. Furthermore He didn’t have to acquire any knowledge either because He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, meaning all knowing, all powerful, in all time. Your just going from one error to the next and the next but they’re all being exposed by the scriptures because the scriptures only teach truth. We started out with your statement that creation had to take longer than 6 days otherwise it would not warrant the merit of praise because it was not laborsome or burdensome. Then I pointed out that Jesus’ miracles were not laborsome or burdensome and yet they merited praise and even proved that by quoting His Triumphant Entry which you said they praised Him because they knew He was God. Then I proved you wrong yet again by showing that the scriptures specifically state that they praised Him because they thought He was a prophet because of the miracles He performed. Then you went off on another wild journey about how God had to acquire His knowledge and skills over a period of time before He could perform those miracles and that these people knew He was God before His crucifixion because they had the indwelling Holy Spirit. Then I proved that no one had received the indwelling Spirit yet because He had not yet been gloried by quoting John 7:39. Then you went on yet another wild goose chase about how no one can believe with the indwelling Holy Spirit and I shot that error down yet again by posting like 5 or 6 verses that specifically show that people believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. I mean how long is this going to continue before you just stop or admit that your wrong? Don’t admit it to me that’s not important, what’s important is that you read these verses I’ve posted and reconsider your theology so that it doesn’t contradict these verses. That’s all that matters. There’s only one truth to God’s word.

 

[JAL]

Your interpretation of John 6:44 contradicts John 7:39 and doesn’t take into consideration Romans 1:16 because you didn’t consider the very next verse in John 6.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬-‭45‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And they shall be taught of God” that’s what the gospel does, it teaches people about God. And “everyone who has heard and learned from The Father comes to Me” hence Romans 1:16 “it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”.

After Christ’s resurrection the gospel was sent out to ALL CREATION.

“And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hence Christ’s prediction in John 12:32

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit before they believe and the scriptures specifically state that many people believed before they received the indwelling Holy Spirit as I’ve already proven to you and you rejected what the scriptures specifically stated. But here I’ll show you even more examples of people who believed before they received the Holy Spirit.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These people believed the gospel yet they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came from Jerusalem and laid hands on them. So someone had to travel 35 miles from Samaria to Jerusalem then Peter & John had to travel 35 miles to Samaria. Average walking speed is about 3 miles per hour so traveling 70 miles would take at least 23 hours going in a straight line on flat terrain with no stops to rest and that’s if someone left immediately after they believed and were baptized and Peter & John left immediately upon hearing about these people. So these people believed at the very least for 24 hours before receiving the Holy Spirit. Realistically probably a couple of days.

Here’s another example of people who believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

“It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s another example of people who believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit except in this case it’s Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles on the night Jesus was arrested after they have been following Him for 3 years.

““But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16‬:‭5‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s another example of people who believed before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit that I already showed you.

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I know this is all probably just a waste of time because there’s no way your going to admit your wrong but the purpose of this post is to allow you to expose your refusal to accept what the scriptures teach in order to hang on to your precious false doctrine and pride. Your probably better just ignoring this post rather than replying to it because you’ll only end up digging your hole deeper than it already is.

I already addressed John 7:39. You just qualify it differently than I do. The pot should not call the kettle black. So then you move on to other verses in Acts to prove that the indwelling Spirit began on Pentecost. How inane - why that day? What makes Pentecost special? If supposedly Jesus death brought a new covenant, why didn't it start the moment He died or arose? Why on Pentecost? Is God so incompetent that He dishonors His covenant - makes Himself a liar - for about 50 days? Oh and it gets worse because Simon believes and is baptized and is DENIED the gift. This REALLY makes God a liar and covenant breaker from your perspective. There's an obvious fix - you just need to realize that Luke-Acts isn't dealing primarily with the Spirit of regeneration but mostly with charismatic/prophetic anointings outpoured for power-in-mission. To summarize: most biblical references to the Spirit have a CONTEXT (what I called a qualification), and you must recognize the correct one, which you are obviously failing to do.

 

[JAL]

@BNR32FAN,

You conveniently ignored my analysis of Galatians demonstrating that OT saints, as heirs of Abraham, DID receive the Holy Spirit. More selective answering on your part.

 

[JAL]

@BNR32FAN,

I am still waiting for a straight answer to post 58. Your neglect of that post is one of the selectivities I'm referring to.

 

[JAL]

@BNR32FAN,

You've ignored several puzzle-pieces that contribute to the logic of the logical construct, such as the 3-point logical syllogism of post 66.

 

[JAL]

You don't seem to understand what a logical construct was. Much of the time, theologians MUST rely on logic to draw conclusions from Scripture.

Yes the scriptures do teach the Trinity and it’s simple to post the verses that support that doctrine.

Nope. It's a logical construct. Many Muslims, for example, see the three persons as polytheism (a tri-theism of three gods similar to the multiple gods of pagan beliefs). Other readers believe that the three persons are related but not all of them divine. Some readers see a Unitarianism expressing itself instead of three persons.

Even the divinity of Christ is a logical construct. Consider:

"14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Does this verse EXPLICITLY state the Son is God? Or the Son is the divine Word? Neither. It merely states that Christ is the Father's son who walks in, radiates, and participates in the GLORY of the divine Word. The reader must logically DEDUCE/INFER anything more.

One reason that logical constructs are necessary is that it is difficult to prove anything 100% from Scripture. I can't even prove that you exist. That's one reason OT and NT saints needed the Inward Witness of the Holy Spirit.

Also I'm beginning to wonder if you even READ some of the reasons I provided for the logical construct. Did you even read posts 295, 296, and 306 on the other thread as I requested of you?

Powers, abilities, skills, are all basically the same thing and your still avoiding the question...

You think I'm avoiding the question because you obviously don't understand what a logical construct is. (Sigh). For the millionth time, my answer to your question, "Where did you get this idea that God had to acquire knowledge and skills" is that it is a logical construct, based on Scripture-related reasonings that you ignore rather than refute.

Furthermore He didn’t have to acquire any knowledge either because He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, meaning all knowing, all powerful, in all time.

You don't win a debate by continually reasserting your position to the neglect of the opposing arguments.

Then I pointed out that Jesus’ miracles were not laborsome or burdensome and yet they merited praise and even proved that by quoting His Triumphant Entry which you said they praised Him because they knew He was God. Then I proved you wrong yet again by showing that the scriptures specifically state that they praised Him because they thought He was a prophet because of the miracles He performed.

Already addressed. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You need to address the statements I made in response to those so-called "proofs" of yours.

 

[JAL]

@BNR32FAN,

Here again, you haven't shown that I failed to address your points.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I already addressed John 7:39. You just qualify it differently than I do. The pot should not call the kettle black. So then you move on to other verses in Acts to prove that the indwelling Spirit began on Pentecost. How inane - why that day? What makes Pentecost special? If supposedly Jesus death brought a new covenant, why didn't it start the moment He died or arose? Why on Pentecost?

You simply can’t admit when you’ve been proven wrong. I never said anything about Pentecost nor did I post a single verse pertaining to Pentecost. I posted verses that specifically stated that people believed and had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Every one of those verses proved that people did in fact believe before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh and it gets worse because Simon believes and is baptized and is DENIED the gift.

You know that your being dishonest in this discussion. You know full well that the passage included other believers who didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter & John traveled from Jerusalem. Have you no shame at all to intentionally misrepresent the word of God for the sake of your own pride?!! This is all you’ve done throughout this entire discussion. What is more important to you, preaching the truth about God’s word or intentionally lying about it to save your own personal pride?

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There’s no way anyone could possibly read this passage and come to the conclusion that only Simon didn’t receive the Holy Spirit. Therefore you are intentionally ignoring the scriptures in order to hang on to your erroneous theology that is refuted by them and you keep on doing this over and over and over. Where are your priorities? Are you a servant of God or are you a servant of yourself?

 

[JAL]

You simply can’t admit when you’ve been proven wrong. I never said anything about Pentecost nor did I post a single verse pertaining to Pentecost. I posted verses that specifically stated that people believed and had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Every one of those verses proved that people did in fact believe before receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And Simon was left out? Making God a liar and covenant breaker? Sorry, I think YOU are the one proven wrong.