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Featured Literal Interpretation of Bible Prophecy: Help or Hindrance?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Actually, the discussion that runs from Romans 9-11, clearly and repeatedly teaches that the ancient promises STILL apply to Paul’s “brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites.” This passage most certainly does not even suggest that these ancient promises have been transferred to any other group. Instead, what it teaches, and clearly teaches, is that only those physical descendants of ancient Israel who are also spiritual followers of their father Abraham, will be counted as his “seed.”
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Please define "spiritual follower of Father Abraham" for us.

    I say the definition is simple. Faith and belief in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ.

    "If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed" (Gal 3:29)

    What say you?

    Again,
    The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, are Jews (Rom 2:27-29), say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, are "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, are "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, are the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, are "no longer strangers but fellow citizens of Israel" (Eph 2:19), say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, were once not a people but now are the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, are the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3).

    Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me, parousia70 and you Biblewriter, with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

    We are not to teach anything different.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  3. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    What is the criteria used for His choice of the 144k? 12,000 from 12 tribes. Jews may not be able to trace their blood lines that specifically, but God knows. Did you ever imagine that marriages are made in heaven, two people guided into a relationship by God? Why couldn't He sustain these tribes throughout their history in order to fulfill His Word literally? It would be an error to interpret these specific chosen people in Rev.7 and 14 as anyone else but Jews from their ancient tribes. So, in addition to these 144K, who are male virgins, there would be and equal amount of female as well. Then the remainder would 1/3 of the Jewish population of the world, 14.5 million.
    Jewish Population of the World
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Perhaps it would have better if I had used the word “determination,” rather than “decree.” I was speaking of the fact that it will be the Lord himself who will decide which individuals He will and will not count as being true Israelites. And anyone and everyone who denies that God will again being all Israel back to its ancient homeland, as one nation, and bless them there, is denying explicitly stated scripture.
     
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Wrong! I am born again, spiritually, from above, but I have not received my resurrected body, like Jesus' resurrected body!
    Sorry, the first resurrection is prior to the Millennial Kingdom, at the Second Coming of Jesus. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Rev. 11:15). This event is when we receive our new bodies. You are reading Rev. 20:5 and want to interpret part of it literally as the first resurrection but ignore the 1000 years in between the first and the second resurrection. You pick literal words and phrases that fit into your belief system and then render the rest symbolic!
    "The rest of the dead" after The Great Tribulation, wait 1000 years _ then comes the second death. "Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."vs.6

    The second death has no power because we have eternal bodies which don't die! The second death happens at the end of the Millennial period, when death and hades are cast into the Lake of Fire.

    This is why Isaiah 65:20 must be talking about this Millennial Kingdom, prior to the total destruction of the first earth. Why? Because that verse expresses that a person who dies at 100 years old would be considered young or (a child). I looked up dozens of translations and they all express the idea that people will live longer, but death will exist. THEREFORE, DEATH AND HADES AT THIS TIME HAS NOT YET BEEN DESTROYED.

    If we accept Isaiah 65 entirely, whether it is speaking of a Millennial Kingdom or not, the New Earth will include longer lives and death as well.

    So the question is:
    ***Concerning Rev. 20:14, when it says Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed, does it mean that spiritual death is destroyed or does it mean that both physical and spiritual death are destroyed?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Already Decided & Determined, as I have painstakenly pointed out, and as St. Paul made it abundantly clear, that the fulfillment would include gentiles as well (Rom 4:13-18; Rom 9:24-26).

    All the prophecies about the dispersion and return of the Jews to their own land were fulfilled at the end the Babylonian Captivity in 457 B.C.,— not 1948 when the State of Israel was formed, or sometime in our future.

    "In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6–12).

    This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

    "For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

    Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews from/to the geographic boundaries of earthly Israel. Not even ONE.
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    "Well, then I do apologize, I read through your statement again, you are right. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture. No hogs around there.

     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  8. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Were there eye witnesses to that? Did every eye see Him? So He came to pass judgment on who exactly, the Jews and left the Romans alone? Were all the nations, the entire world being judged? No, the fall of Jerusalem was significant in Jewish history but Judgment Day will be significant for the entire world. Jesus Second Coming will impact the entire world. None of the things in Rev. 6-22 have happened.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to dispensational dogma, before God chooses the 144,000 (they've already been chosen, but that's a separate discussion), He will herd all Jews remaining on earth after the rapture to the land of Israel, preparatory to slaughtering 2/3 of them (Zechariah 13:8).

    What criteria will He use to determine who is in the herd?
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The 2nd death has no power over those believe in Christ and have been born again (1st resurrection).

    John 11:25-26
    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

    Romans 6:4
    We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

    Colossians 2:12 And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
     
  11. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Is this dispensation dogma?
    "Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD, - Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; " Ezek.37:21

    After more than 1800 years, they came back home. the Jewish nation became a state in 1948 and the Holy City recaptured in 1967 - that was when the clock started to tick!

    "And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut to pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it." Zech. 12:3

    Jerusalem has been a stumbling block, a very heavy stone to all the surrounding nations and the UN as well. Just recently Trump declared Jerusalem the capital and will set up the US Embassy there soon. This created tension for the Islamic nations, Palestinians and UN as well. AM I making up Dispensation garbage or have you not been paying attention!

    "Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. 'Who among us can live with the consuming fire"? Who among us can live with continual burning?" Isaiah 33:14
    *
    Notice the consuming fire is on earth - they are in the midst of the Great Tribulation. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, not ever shall be." Matt. 24:21
    Was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD the greatest tribulation since the beginning of the world or any other time??? Come on.
    "For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance,
    The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
    It's streams shall be turned to pitch,
    And its dust into brimstone;
    Its land shall become burning pitch ..."Isaiah 34:8-10

    Particularly, the end times will gather many Islamic nations against Israel (which should be no surprise) and these nations will be destroyed.
    "Neither their silver nor their gold
    Shall be able to deliver them
    In the day of the LORD's wrath;
    But the whole land shall be devoured
    By the fire of His jealously,
    For He will make a complete end,
    Indeed a terrifying one,
    Of all the inhabitants of the earth" Zeph. 1:18


    "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." Zeph. 12:9
    This did not happen in 70 A.D.

    "For i will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle. and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mt. of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley, and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Zech.14:2-4
    The following verse describes the effects of a nuclear/neutron bomb:
    "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away (dissolve or melt) while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Zech. 14:12
    These foes are incinerated as the are standing on their feet.

    A war is coming soon and the above verses describe it! It's called the Great Tribulation Period -- H E L L O! But you can call it the Great Dispensation Dogma Period if you like.

     
  12. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Spiritually yes. But we haven't received our resurrected bodies yet, not until the 7th Trumpet blows.

    Being born again is not the same as being transformed into an eternal body like Jesus was. That will be the first resurrection.
    You all are saying the 1st and 2nd resurrections are two different things, one spiritual and one the real deal -- of course, the Great Tribulation, Millennial Kingdom, doesn't work with your theology so you have to distort a lot of scripture.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    That "war" is found below.

    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    It will make a neutron bomb look like a firecracker.

    .
     
  14. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    Yes the Lord may rain down His fire but he also uses us, our weapons and nature to do His work. Nuclear war is not unreasonable within the next few. If Iran get nukes, they want Israel annihilated and Israel will respond, they have plenty. But as far as the final destruction of the earth when the fervent heat that melts the elements of the universe happens, yes, that will be something.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to this, is everyone who "came back home" considered to be a Jew?

    Who were the "they"? What distinguished them?

    If they came back home but then departed again, were they still Jews?
    If they came back home as atheists, were they still Jews?
    If they came back home and embraced atheism, were they still Jews?
    If they came back home and refused to embrace Judaism, were they still Jews?
    If they came back home as Christians, were they still Jews?
    If they came back home and supported the Palestinians, were they still Jews?
    If they came back home and ate bacon, were they still Jews?

    We need additional clarification.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    If God drew them Home, they came.
    You are ignoring all the scriptures I presented and commentary. All you can do is come up with mundane questions - not worth my while. See ya.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Was it the Lord of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or was it Lord Rothschild that drew them back to the middle east?




    How many American soldiers had to die during WWI to get the Balfour Agreement established?

    .
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mundane and unanswerable?

    How did God decide whom He would draw?

    Did He draw those who subsequently waged terrorism and war on Palestinians, including Palestinian Christians?

    http://ifamericaknew.org/history/origin.html by Jews for Justice
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations

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    A little more substance here, but still you did not respond to Gods Word concerning Israel's return to their "promised land". given to them by God through the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc, not Ishmael and his descendants, the Palestinians or any other Islamic peoples.
    You seem to have a problem with God's will.
    The present day Israel allows Muslims to live there, they allow them to have a Mosque on their holy site (and they are merciful in that they have not bulldozed it down- yet). Israel relinquished the Golan Heights., the West Bank and more territory.
    The truth is, it will never be enough. The Muslims want Israel annihilated, out of their and Jerusalem as their holy city. They will not stop and the scripture I gave you clearly shows what will happen to them when many nations join forces to attack them. They will be destroyed and this is God's will.
    Go back and read it and spare me your rebuttal. You are going against God on this one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You seem to have missed out on the fact that the "son" is the "heir" to the land and that the kingdom would be taken from those that reject the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.

    That nation which would accept the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter.


    Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
    Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
    Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


    1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    .
     
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