Literal Interpretation of Bible Prophecy: Help or Hindrance?

Ronald

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If science is to be believed, Jewish DNA runs through Every single one of the 7 billion Humans alive today, so your either your math is off, or there is some other criteria besides Abrahamic DNA that God uses to determine Jewishness.
Look it up. There are real numbers of Jews who practice their religion. I have Jewish blood in me, but I'm not Jewish. Besides the remnant 1/3 of the planet are Christians. We currently number 2.42 billion out of 7.3 billion. Whoever is in the Book of Life will be saved.
 
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Ronald

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If the text says it is the New Heavens and New Earth, then your understanding of 100 year old babies dying cannot be correct.
Why don't YOU go back and read Isaiah 65:20 AGAIN?
 
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BABerean2

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Why don't YOU go back and read Isaiah 65:20 AGAIN?


Why don't you go back and read the entire passage again and notice that verse 20 comes after verse 17 and verse 19, and before verse 25.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

If your interpretation of verse 20 is correct, the rest of the passage must be ignored, because you have death in the New Heavens and New Earth as well as death and no crying or weeping, and then in verse 25 we find the curse has been lifted...

.
 
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jgr

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Look it up. There are real numbers of Jews who practice their religion. I have Jewish blood in me, but I'm not Jewish. Besides the remnant 1/3 of the planet are Christians. We currently number 2.42 billion out of 7.3 billion. Whoever is in the Book of Life will be saved.
God's criterion for determining Jewishness is whether or not they practice their antichrist religion???

Say it ain't so.
 
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jgr

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I don't doubt the science ,
rather simply pointing out the obviously glaring motivation behind the continuous asking of questions like ' how much DNA is required ' it is a moot point - not relevant at all as there is no discussion on the topic for the topics sake - but the Reason for bringing it up is just another knife attack brought on by amils to attack either premil or pre trib or disbelieving that there is a difference between Jews that are not followers of Jesus have a direct heritage to Israel .
People who have a direct maternal heritage to Jews are far more likely to be a true lineage in Jewish bloodline than someone who takes a DNA test and finds that they have 1% Jewish DNA , maternal heritage Jews are far more likely to be following the old Jewish lifestyles than someone who never gave it a thought that they might be Jewish and suddenly thinks they are Jewish because they have a slight bit of Jewish DNA
American People who find they have a heritage to Sioux Indians don't suddenly call themselves Indians .
It is nothing more than the Classic textbook example of ' trying to lift ones self up by tearing others down " exactly what Jesus said NOT to do

All day , day in day out every day , every week , every month the constant onslaught of endless attacks , which is why Darby - Scofield and others are constantly under attack , constant posting of videos against premil or pre anything . It is obvious that the only reason that DNA is brought up is to put down what someone else believes without any proof it is false or what amils suppose is true, it is not having any positive impact -

If you take a step back and look at all the threads and the posts in the threads , at least 90% of what amils talk about is something negative about what they don't believe is true - so what , big deal only thing that is being accomplished is negative badgering - it be like watching a back biting election campaign where all ads are saying bad things against their opponent .
The constant endless barrage against your brethren is only causing division results in fights , nothing at all good comes from it - amils almost never engage in anything positive or uplifting ,. or encouraging or loving ,

Why not put aside the differences and talk about things that everyone can engage in .
accept the fact there are differences and focus on positive things . The constant barrage on anything amils don't agree with while never saying anything positive that can be uplifting or encouraging to their brothers and sisters in Christ are so not likely to have any positive uplifting effect to bring non believers to Christ, Why not try something like as Paul said about the harpazo "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
This forum is devoted to determining and defending the true faith. Contention is inevitable, but Scripture admonishes:

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

An essential element of this determination and defense is an accurate identification of who God's New Testament Chosen People are. What is/are His (and thus our) criterion/criteria for identifying them?

To arrive at the answer, we must begin by asking the simple question:

Is DNA (in any amount) God's criterion for identifying His Chosen People?

This question cannot be ignored in a determination and defense of the true faith. It must be answered.

You have said that DNA is not relevant at all. Does that mean that you believe that God does not consider it relevant either? If so, you're right; He doesn't.
 
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Ronald

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In verse 20, "there shall be no more" and "for the child shall die an hundred years old" seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? I am aware of what the rest of the verses are saying, all pertaining to the New Jerusalem.
To me, withJesus reigning as King, literally, sin and evil being absent on earth, animals having no fear, advanced aging - sounds like a New Earth.
I've answered most of your questions. This future time is not all clear to anyone, nor do I claim to have it all figured out. I will check the translation of that verse.

But three questions for you:
Where do you place the first resurrection and the first death?
Where do you place the second resurrection and second death?
How much time in between those events?

Why don't you go back and read the entire passage again and notice that verse 20 comes after verse 17 and verse 19, and before verse 25.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

If your interpretation of verse 20 is correct, the rest of the passage must be ignored, because you have death in the New Heavens and New Earth as well as death and no crying or weeping, and then in verse 25 we find the curse has been lifted...

.
 
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Ronald

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God's criterion for determining Jewishness is whether or not they practice their antichrist religion???

Say it ain't so.
Replacement theology has led to antisemitism and a bit of blindness as well. Reexamine Romans 11, God is not done with Israel, He will graft in a remnant again in the near future. Then you will call them brothers and sisters, Christians.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Literal Interpretation of Bible Prophecy: Help or Hindrance?

Quasar92

Usually a hindrance.

God is clearly a master of metaphor -- look at Ezekiel some time.

You are either saved or not saved. Not sure why people run off into these sorts of topics anyway. Isn't there miracles to do, praying? Finding God by the way Jesus prescribed? Instead of intellectual fantasies by minds devoid of Christ?
 
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jgr

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Replacement theology has led to antisemitism and a bit of blindness as well. Reexamine Romans 11, God is not done with Israel, He will graft in a remnant again in the near future. Then you will call them brothers and sisters, Christians.

That doesn't answer the question.

Is God's selection criterion race, or is it religion?
 
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BABerean2

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Where do you place the first resurrection and the first death?
Where do you place the second resurrection and second death?
How much time in between those events?



Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The first resurrection in Revelation chapter 20 is found above.
It occurs when a person comes to faith in Christ.
It is when they are "born again" of the Spirit of God.
(See Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13.)
The person was spiritually dead and is now alive.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

The second resurrection is found above and it bracketed by verses showing that Christ is the judge.
Therefore, the resurrection of the dead occurs at the time of the judgment of the dead.

Based on Revelation 11:15-18, the event above occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

The same man recorded John 5 and Revelation 20.

The time in between these two resurrections depends on when the person lived.

......................................................................

Thank you for the answer about Isaiah chapter 65 in post #87.


.

 
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Biblewriter

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Hogwash - the view of a Preterist.
Jesus fulfilled some 300 prophecies and will return to fulfill hundreds more AND set up His Millennial Kingdom after He rids the planet of sin and evil for a thousand years. He hasn't returned in Judgment. Jerusalem was a small town, small change, destroyed in 70 AD but was in no way the Judgment intended for the entire world. The judgment against Jerusalem was from one nation, not many. Satan was defeated on the Cross, so Christians can feel secure about that, but he was not thrown into the Abyss and locked up- Yet.
There so many prophecies that have not yet to be fulfilled. God did not intend for mankind to suffer in a sinful world for eons without end. He had a perfect plan, the plan for this world is finite, the plan for His own, infinite. Do you really think the Christianity will somehow spread to convert the entire planet? How's that going?
Jesus left us with signs. One of the clear signs that signaled the last generation I do believe is Israel becoming and nation in 1948. This generation (70 years or so according to Psalm 90:10). The key verses leading up to the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 explain in detail when to expect it. In there is the fall of Jerusalem, but also the Second Coming and the End of the Age. Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilence, nation arising against nation, false Christs appearing, etc. Did those things happen between 67-70 AD? In this past 70 years, we have seen these things escalate. We've certainly seen guys like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and that Mormon who had 78 wives as young as 12 years old. And look at the Middle East, it's been on fire since 2011. Many Christians in Muslim countries would claim they are going through a Great Tribulation now, with their heads being chopped off, wives raped and murdered and millions of refugees fleeing. Much of history surrounds Jerusalem though. Keep your eyes on what going on over there and you will see prophecies unfolding. This past year, the announcement by Trump to make Jerusalem the capital stirred up things a bit. The Bible says that Jerusalem will be a heavy stone, a stumbling block for many nations.
"And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples, all who would heave it away will surely be cut to pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it." Zech.12:3 Did that happen already? It's about to.
"But the transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, And those who forsake the LORD will come to an end." Isaiah 1:28 Did that happen? No, not yet!
"Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the LORD'S wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth." Zeph. 1:18

Was that the fall of Jerusalem? I don't think so. There are literally hundreds of verses that have not been fulfilled yet.

Matthew 24:14 is the key to when this Great Tribulation will begin:
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in ALL THE WORLD as a witness to ALL the nations, AND THEN THE END WILL COME."
Guess what folks, we are about at that point in history. Scholars would agree that within the last few years we have spread the gospel to the entire world, to every nation. Of course on an individual basis, not everyone has heard, a baby is born every 8 seconds and certainly children are brought up under a different cloth then ours so, it's not possible for a moment in time to exist that everyone on the planet has heard the gospel, but the verse doesn't require that does it. The gospel has been preached to ALL the World and witnesses went out to ALL NATIONS. This means, we are close!
In 70AD, the gospel was just getting off the ground, just getting started. Btw, Revelation wasn't even written until about 95 AD - so none of that had to do with the destruction of Jerusalem. I can present a strong argument for that date. The Preterist must cling unto an earlier date of Revelation, otherwise their view doesn't work. But they must allegorize much of prophecy. Their abstract views of symbolism are out there. The point is, Jesus fulfilled prophecies literally, so why wouldn't we think that He would fulfill all of them literally? Get ready.
 
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Biblewriter

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Hogwash - the view of a Preterist.
Jesus fulfilled some 300 prophecies and will return to fulfill hundreds more AND set up His Millennial Kingdom after He rids the planet of sin and evil for a thousand years. He hasn't returned in Judgment. Jerusalem was a small town, small change, destroyed in 70 AD but was in no way the Judgment intended for the entire world. The judgment against Jerusalem was from one nation, not many. Satan was defeated on the Cross, so Christians can feel secure about that, but he was not thrown into the Abyss and locked up- Yet.
There so many prophecies that have not yet to be fulfilled. God did not intend for mankind to suffer in a sinful world for eons without end. He had a perfect plan, the plan for this world is finite, the plan for His own, infinite. Do you really think the Christianity will somehow spread to convert the entire planet? How's that going?
Jesus left us with signs. One of the clear signs that signaled the last generation I do believe is Israel becoming and nation in 1948. This generation (70 years or so according to Psalm 90:10). The key verses leading up to the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 explain in detail when to expect it. In there is the fall of Jerusalem, but also the Second Coming and the End of the Age. Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilence, nation arising against nation, false Christs appearing, etc. Did those things happen between 67-70 AD? In this past 70 years, we have seen these things escalate. We've certainly seen guys like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and that Mormon who had 78 wives as young as 12 years old. And look at the Middle East, it's been on fire since 2011. Many Christians in Muslim countries would claim they are going through a Great Tribulation now, with their heads being chopped off, wives raped and murdered and millions of refugees fleeing. Much of history surrounds Jerusalem though. Keep your eyes on what going on over there and you will see prophecies unfolding. This past year, the announcement by Trump to make Jerusalem the capital stirred up things a bit. The Bible says that Jerusalem will be a heavy stone, a stumbling block for many nations.
"And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples, all who would heave it away will surely be cut to pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it." Zech.12:3 Did that happen already? It's about to.
"But the transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, And those who forsake the LORD will come to an end." Isaiah 1:28 Did that happen? No, not yet!
"Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the LORD'S wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth." Zeph. 1:18

Was that the fall of Jerusalem? I don't think so. There are literally hundreds of verses that have not been fulfilled yet.

Matthew 24:14 is the key to when this Great Tribulation will begin:
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in ALL THE WORLD as a witness to ALL the nations, AND THEN THE END WILL COME."
Guess what folks, we are about at that point in history. Scholars would agree that within the last few years we have spread the gospel to the entire world, to every nation. Of course on an individual basis, not everyone has heard, a baby is born every 8 seconds and certainly children are brought up under a different cloth then ours so, it's not possible for a moment in time to exist that everyone on the planet has heard the gospel, but the verse doesn't require that does it. The gospel has been preached to ALL the World and witnesses went out to ALL NATIONS. This means, we are close!
In 70AD, the gospel was just getting off the ground, just getting started. Btw, Revelation wasn't even written until about 95 AD - so none of that had to do with the destruction of Jerusalem. I can present a strong argument for that date. The Preterist must cling unto an earlier date of Revelation, otherwise their view doesn't work. But they must allegorize much of prophecy. Their abstract views of symbolism are out there. The point is, Jesus fulfilled prophecies literally, so why wouldn't we think that He would fulfill all of them literally? Get ready.
If you had carefully read what I posted, you would not have said “hogwash.” I am a committed futurist and a strong proponent of Dispensationalism.
 
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claninja

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John the Baptist paved the way for Jess in His first advent. Elijah will pve the3 way for Him in Jis second advent as revealed in Jesus transfiguration, into His kingdom, in Mt.17:1-2, with Elijah and Moses appearing with Him at that time. John the Baptist and Elijah are two very separate individuals.


Quasar92

If you can believe, he was the Elijah. Jesus clearly explains that John the Baptist fulfilled this.

He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.
Matthew 17:11-13
 
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parousia70

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Did God save David from his enemies, from Saul? Yes he did. David shows his appreciation in a song. Is it possible that David saw this vision of the Lord doing these things? Is David lying to us or exagerating? That is for you to answer. We are also told of a vision that Elisha had of an army of angels present, when no one else could see them. Were they literally there? YES (2 Kings 6:8-23)

Excellent... so you should likewise have no problem with Jesus, Lord of the Vineyard, Chief Cornerstone, literally Coming in the clouds in 70 AD, as He fulfilled Matthew 21:40-45
 
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Biblewriter

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Which Jews are these?
Christ Rejecting genetic Sons of Abraham?
Christ Rejecting Gentile Coverts to Judiasm?
Both?
How one will be able to tell the difference remains a mystery....



So wait, mortal human beings born during the millennium, living under the iron rod reign of Christ, will not have the opportunity to choose to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior and thus become "Christians"?

Where is this taught?
The only one who will decide on whether or not any individual qualifies for this designation is the Lord himself. So all such questions are sacrilegious.
 
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parousia70

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The only one who will decide on whether or not any individual qualifies for this designation is the Lord himself. So all such questions are sacrilegious.
So all the so called Jews claiming to know have no business making such a claim in your opinion then?
 
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Biblewriter

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So all the so called Jews claiming to know have no business making such a claim in your opinion then?
They can say anything they want. But their opinions have nothing to do with what the Lord will decree.
 
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parousia70

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the Reason for bringing it up is just another knife attack brought on by amils to attack either premil or pre trib or disbelieving that there is a difference between Jews that are not followers of Jesus have a direct heritage to Israel .
Plenty of Arabs have a direct Heritage to Israel as well... so I'm not sure what your point is...?

People who have a direct maternal heritage to Jews are far more likely to be a true lineage in Jewish bloodline than someone who takes a DNA test and finds that they have 1% Jewish DNA

That sure is some fanciful speculation seventy!... got any proof to back that up?
And what do you claim qualifies as "true lineage"?
I can guarantee you no Jew alive today can demonstrate ANY direct genetic connection to a single pre desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.
If there were, you'd link us to him/her... but you can't, can you?

maternal heritage Jews are far more likely to be following the old Jewish lifestyles than someone who never gave it a thought that they might be Jewish and suddenly thinks they are Jewish because they have a slight bit of Jewish DNA

Here's the Rub with that seventy, Todays Jews themselves know that they cannot trace their heritage back to the O.T. jews. They are claimants without any proof whatsoever. So are the Mormons.

Todays Mormons and Todays Jews are EQUALS in God's Eyes.

"Following old Jewish lifestyles" is a meaningless term.
Dr Laura Schlessenger, a gentile convert to Modern Judaism, "Follows old Jewish Lifestyles", so does that make her a legitimate genetic Jew in your eyes?

All the tribes and bloodlines were lost 20 centuries ago. Call that what you want, but that's the reality. Now, Christianity has an explanation for why this happened. The loss of the tribes, the priesthood of Aaron, the animal sacrifice, the Temple occurred because *all* people-groups were destined by God to be partakers in Abraham's faith. This prophecy of Gen 12:3 was fulfilled in the first century. (Be sure to note that Galatians 3:7-14 is the biblical interpretation of Genesis 12:3).

Scriptuire is clear, in order for a JEW to be a JEW in God's eyes, he/she MUST FOLLOW THE LAW OF MOSES, or be CUT OFF FROM THE PEOPLE FOREVER. Of course not one Jew alive today keeps the Law of Moses. Read MOSES and his requirements. They do NOT keep the Law of Moses now but have invented their own religion. The Temple Mount Faithful have invented their own religion and substituted it for the one Moses required jews to follow. If you would just read Moses then you would have no confusion on this and make unsupportable claims that any Christ rejecting people on our planet today are "observant" Jews.

Here's the reality:
The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

The only Jews that survived AD 70 intact were the Newly Covenanted Nazarenes. There is no other covenanted jewish sect that anyone can point to in real history after AD 70. The Nazarenes are the covenanted Israel of actual history.

The REAL physical descendants were the Nazarenes, the jewish remnant that faithfully followed Messiah and entered the New Covenant when these came to them. All the other opposing jewish sects that observed Torah were wiped out at AD 70, for rejecting Messiah and His New Covenant.

Surely you have read Rom 9:24-26, which is St. Paul's interpretation of Hosea's promised restoration. Surely you have read 1 Peter 2:9-10, which is St. Peter's interpretation of Hosea's restoration. The Nazarenes and the other Jewish followers of the New Covenant were reunited by King Jesus, the son of David. And surely you know that Peter and James are letters to the diaspora (1 Peter 1:1; James 1:1). It was the promised NEW covenant of Jesus that brought fulfillment of the promised restoration of the houses of Israel (Heb 8:6-13).

St. Paul made it abundantly clear, moreover, that the fulfillment would include gentiles as well (Rom 4:13-18; Rom 9:24-26).
 
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parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
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They can say anything they want. But their opinions have nothing to do with what the Lord will decree.

We are not waiting for that Decree friend, it has already been given.
The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

We are not to teach anything different.
 
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