Limited Provision?

[JM]

I'll will do my best to answer but please refrain from posting scriptures without any comment.

Also, please refrain from posting more then a few scriptures at a time, it just makes a mess.

If you post a scripture without explaining what you think it means you have added nothing to the discussion...anyone can do that. I'm not a mind reader and I shouldn't be forced to guess at what you presuppose the scripture to mean.

Here is an offer to drink of the water He gives, in return for eternal life: John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.

This is more like it, thank you. A comment and a scripture...now we can discuss it.

Who are the "whosoever" in this passage? You are begging the question by assuming "whosoever" means all people who ever existed from the beginning of time until now...and if you really think about it that doesn't make much sense. Does God intend to save all of humanity without the establishing a means to at least offer salvation to all who ever lived? Again, this doesn't make much sense. You are assuming who the whosoever are and your assume is not found in the text. Consider John 10 where we are told that Christ knows His sheep and they know His voice and Christ lays down His life for them and them alone. The whosever's in John 10 are clearly the sheep, a marked people who belong to Christ and those who do not believe are said not to believe "because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

Here is another offer to eat the bread from heaven in order to live forever: John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

John 6.44 also tells us that " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" and if all are being drawn, "I will raise him up at the last day." to salvation. When you quote, "if anyone eats of this bread..." the subject of that passage are those who the Father draws to Christ.

It is the Lords Day today and I do not wish to spend it arguing. Have a blessed day in worship and fellowship with God's people.

jm
PS: Besides all that, Christ said His blood was shed for "many" and not all. Matthew 26.28 and Mark 14.24. You can twist and turn those verses anyway you like they still say Christ died for many and not all.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM,

You said,

You quoted Mat. 5, Lk 6, Rom. 5 and Col. 1 in support of your position. Again, you are misleading. You have ignored other passages that would be at odds with "loving your neighbour" in the manner in which you mean.

I have not ignored them. I have taken them into consideration, placed the “love” verses and the “hate” verses in the overall context of what Scripture reveals about the nature of God and drawn conclusions. Same as you have done.

In the book of Revelation (6 - 19) we find Christ destroying millions of His enemies, David prayed to God to destroy his enemies, to cut them off completely and lets not forget Israel was commanded to utterly destroy most of their enemies at different times.

I do not deny this.

That is why I posted this:

In the Bible love is used interchangeably with mercy and forbearance and should be viewed in an Old Testament sense of the Law, being lawful to one another (Ex. 23.4, Deut. 22.1) and is a reference to being civil. The emotional kind of love that you are presuming is not expressed toward the reprobate wicked.

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not.

If your son were an axe murderer you would still love him although he is a serpent and deserves punishment. At least I think you would? If a natural father is able to make this distinction within himself, I’m sure God can.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God pleads with people to turn to Him so they will not die.
All revelation of Himself, general and specific, “pleads” with humanity to the extent they are left without excuse (Romans 1:20-21).

God does not "plead," neither does He whimper or whine. God is King and commands. That which He commands He accomplishes.

He does plead. He does weep. He does grieve. He does suffer. And, you are right He is a King who commands and His will is always accomplished.

Romans 1 has nothing to do with pleading but condemning all because the revelation of God is self evident truth. You misquoted the passage.

I wasn’t trying to quote the passage. You just stated what I was trying to convey. The revelation of God is self -evident truth leaving man without excuse. I would add it shouts the revelation! It is all around us. The revelation cries, “Here I am Creator God of the universe bow down to me!”

Ezek 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

You said, In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not.

We were all in that state. I know you know this… Romans 3:10-18

So...what causes one to differ?

Is it not grace, the unmerited favour of God or is the one who "accepts" the "offer" by generating faith spiritually better?

It is the unmerited favor given to those who receive it by faith.

You see, you simply cannot avoid that conclusion and since you quoted Romans 3...how is the natural mind, which is at enmity against God (Rom. 8.7) and not able to obey God, how does he go from Romans 3 to a born again believer? Grace alone.

Belief in the revelation.

You claim that God's love is only effectual if one "receives it."

The benefits of God’s love are applied to those who receive it. True.

In your words what causes one to differ from another is not grace, it is their ability to "receive" it and " recognizes his inferiority and is humble before the Lord."

If you have seen me write, at any point, that grace is not involved in our ability to receive, please show me where so I can correct it. I do not think you will find it. It is by God’s grace that we have the ability to believe.

Read Romans 3 again and tell me who is able to do that humble themselves before God and obey God.

Rom 3:20-31
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

NO ONE CAN BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY OBEYING THE LAW. ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT. HOWEVER, ANYONE CAN BELIEVE AND RECEIVE HIS PROVISION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM,

You said,

You referred John 12 and inserted John 16 to try and prove your point but you failed to deal with the "drawing of men." The AV is a great translation and I use it as my main Bible...ever notice the italics in the AV? The word men is not in the text. Neither is the word "people." So if I allow your point it doesn't prove that Christ is drawing all to salvation since "all men" is not in the text. For the sake of argument lets say this passage has nothing to do with the judgement of the word, that Christ on the cross does not represent the salvation of sinners and the condemnation of the reprobate. The word "men" is not in the text. Now, consider Christ's early words found in John 6.40 and v44 where He plainly teaches that all who are drawn to Him will be raised up with Him on the last day. If Christ draws all men He will raise all men up to salvation. The conclusion is inescapable.

I’m sure you have a good point here. I’m just not sure what it is.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

JM definitively states…“The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.” – JM

Okay, there it is. The Good News is not good news to everyone.

You quoted me out of context. The Gospel is good news to those that believe, it means absolutely nothing to unbelievers, this is just common sense. When Christ proclaimed in the Temple, marketplaces and courtyards did the Pharisees say, "hey, that's some good news right here!" No, they plotted to kill him. The news Christ preached was deemed by them as not good.

It doesn’t matter what the Pharisees “deem” the Gospel. If it is gospel then it is good news. It is not a question of perception, but one of content.

The context of my statement is here,

Have a peek at the terrible ministry of Isaiah (6), " Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate" This is a perfect example of how preaching the Gospel can harden the hearts of the reprobate. The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.

There it is again. JM says the Gospel is not good news to everyone.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

Another great JM quote: “The proclamation is just that, the preaching of a truth and not an "offer" of salvation as some teach and believe.” - JM

What? Are you kidding? Matthew 22:1-14

A very shallow reading of this passage has caused you some confusion.

Glad to see your confession.

There is no offer of salvation found in this passage, only those in proper dress were admitted and they were chosen by God. The invite is nothing more then a command to repent.

Matt 22:1-9

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5 "But they paid no attention and went off-one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come…. 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Okay, whatever you say. (sarcasm again).

The Bible teaches us about two kinds of repentance (twin has written on this before), evangelical or godly and legal or worldly. The first is a gift of God and the second is caused by fear of sin such was the repentance Judas experienced for betraying Christ. All men are commanded to repent but saving repentance is a gift of God.

Okay?

Matthew 11:28-29 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls

Should it be believed that only the elect are weary and burdened? No, of course not. All humanity needs rest for their souls and is invited to come to Jesus.

All humanity needs rest from sin but not all humanity will recognize the need for Christ.

True.

Only those wounded by the Holy Spirit will acknowledge their burden, give up their false religion and idols and rest in Jesus Christ alone for the saving of their souls.

Wounded by the Holy Spirit?

 

[gmm4j]

With this post I want to clarify that I do not believe in Universalism.

Universalism believes that everyone is saved. I do not believe this no matter how hard JM tries to pin it on me.

I believe the atonement is universal in it's provision and LIMITED to those who believe. This is not Universalism.

 

[JM]

Ok, stop here with all the multiple posts so I can catch up. Could you please respond in one post with proper quotes instead of marking your quotes in red? It makes it easier to respond.

 

[Arcoe]

I'll will do my best to answer but please refrain from posting scriptures without any comment.

I had rather read scripture without comment, than a comment without scripture.

Also, please refrain from posting more then a few scriptures at a time, it just makes a mess.

I don't understand this, but as you wish.

If you post a scripture without explaining what you think it means you have added nothing to the discussion...anyone can do that. I'm not a mind reader and I shouldn't be forced to guess at what you presuppose the scripture to mean.

Does it matter what I write, or what the Spirit reveals to us?

This is more like it, thank you. A comment and a scripture...now we can discuss it.

You are welcome.

Who are the "whosoever" in this passage? You are begging the question by assuming "whosoever" means all people who ever existed from the beginning of time until now...and if you really think about it that doesn't make much sense. Does God intend to save all of humanity without the establishing a means to at least offer salvation to all who ever lived? Again, this doesn't make much sense. You are assuming who the whosoever are and your assume is not found in the text...

Sorry, this isn't about to whom this is said, but rather, whether there exists an offer.

John 6.44 also tells us that "...

I get what you are saying, but has nothing to do with an offer.

It is the Lords Day today and I do not wish to spend it arguing. Have a blessed day in worship and fellowship with God's people.

Thank you.

PS: Besides all that, Christ said His blood was shed for "many" and not all. Matthew 26.28 and Mark 14.24. You can twist and turn those verses anyway you like they still say Christ died for many and not all.

Still, this has nothing to do with an offer, but thanks.

 

[Arcoe]

I'll will do my best to answer but please refrain from posting scriptures without any comment.

Also, please refrain from posting more then a few scriptures at a time, it just makes a mess.

To be specific, I was giving scripture in regard to your statement:

That which He commands He accomplishes.

​

I gave passages which state this isn't a true statement. In fact, the very first recorded command of the Lord wasn't accomplished.

Anyway, at the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word will be established, so I have provided three witnesses to establish not every command of the Lord is accomplished.

Genesis 3:11
And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

Jeremiah 11:8
Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked, each one, in the stubbornness of his evil heart; therefore I brought on them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did not.

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

I hope this clears things up.

 

[JM]

I have not ignored them. I have taken them into consideration, placed the “love” verses and the “hate” verses in the overall context of what Scripture reveals about the nature of God and drawn conclusions. Same as you have done.

The above is a good example of writing to fill up a thread without dealing with the arguments. If you disagree then show why and how you arrived at your conclusions. If you don't want to just admit that you disagree with what I posted and move on.

I do not deny this.

Wha...we agree on something!

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

Ahhh, not so fast.

Eli's house was prevented by God from being cleansed with sacrifice and offering FOREVER (1 Samuel 3.14). Don't forget the ministry of Isaiah 6 were we find the judicial hardening of the reprobate by God (v10), God closed the eyes of the folks in Isaiah 29.9-12 as well. Who can forget the son of perdition was lost on purpose (John 17.12), God created vessels of wrath fitted or made for destruction (9.21-22), some of Israel will be saved others were blinded (Romans 11.7).

But wait folks, that's not all...

God sent some individuals strong delusion causing them to believe a lie that they might be damned. (2 Thessalonians 2.11) And why is that? They were ordained to condemnation (Jude 4) just like Pharaoh (Exodus 9.16). The Lord also led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19.14) and created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16.4) God created the wicked for the day of evil.

If your son were an axe murderer you would still love him although he is a serpent and deserves punishment. At least I think you would? If a natural father is able to make this distinction within himself, I’m sure God can.

You are using an emotive argument. A fallen, sinful man like myself would not be able to assume the emotions of God so we must deal with what is revealed in the Bible. I know you have an emotional tie to your argument and that you somehow think God owes everyone that ever lived a chance to "get saved" but the BOOK doesn't teach that. I cannot answer your question as if I were God, can't do it and won't do it.

I wrote, "God does not "plead," neither does He whimper or whine. God is King and commands. That which He commands He accomplishes."

You responded:

He does plead. He does weep. He does grieve. He does suffer. And, you are right He is a King who commands and His will is always accomplished.

The pleading is with His covenant people to obey the covenant and not for salvation. Christ's weeping is to display all righteousness according to His Fathers will. Any reference to the Father pleading should be categorized as an anthropomorphism since, "He is a King who commands and His will is always accomplished."

Ezek 33:11

Again, I already offered an exegesis of this passage.



You quoted me, "In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not." and then when on to comment:

We were all in that state. I know you know this… Romans 3:10-18

Scripture teaches that God loves His people with an everlasting love (Jer. 31.3) Faith is not the cause of this love but the result of us being justified, "being justified freely by his grace" (Rom. 3.24) and "it is God that justifies..." Rom. 8.33 God's people were seen as in Christ from the foundation of world. (Rev. 5.6)

It is the unmerited favor given to those who receive it by faith.

Ok, forget all the snarky comments I've made so far and really think about the first half of you sentence. If it is unmerited, unearned, not gotten grace but freely given grace...why isn't it completely of God?

I posted, "You see, you simply cannot avoid that conclusion and since you quoted Romans 3...how is the natural mind, which is at enmity against God (Rom. 8.7) and not able to obey God, how does he go from Romans 3 to a born again believer? Grace alone." And you replied:

Belief in the revelation.

I'm not sure I understand.

I wrote, "You claim that God's love is only effectual if one 'receives it'" then added:

The benefits of God’s love are applied to those who receive it. True. If you have seen me write, at any point, that grace is not involved in our ability to receive, please show me where so I can correct it. I do not think you will find it. It is by God’s grace that we have the ability to believe.

I have argued that faith is a gift of God by which one is saved. Would you agree with that or are you saying man must produce faith on his own? Why does God not give this grace to all? It seems you are limiting the effect of Holy Spirit to convert a sinner and save their soul.

Rom 3:20-31 NO ONE CAN BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY OBEYING THE LAW. ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT. HOWEVER, ANYONE CAN BELIEVE AND RECEIVE HIS PROVISION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH.

God commands us to believe the Law is holy and just, that we are not able to follow it and must rely on Christ and Him alone to save. How the command of the Gospel, to repent and believe, any different from the Law?

I’m sure you have a good point here. I’m just not sure what it is.

The point of my paragraph on John 12...you believe this chapter is about drawing all of humanity to Christ for salvation but the subject of the drawing is not every single person who ever lived since the word "men" and "persons" is added by the translators. It could mean all "plumbers, women, gentiles, jews, banjo players, etc"

I wrote, "The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.” You commented:

Okay, there it is. The Good News is not good news to everyone.

Does that mean the Gospel is good news to those in hell? I guess so. There you have it folks.

It doesn’t matter what the Pharisees “deem” the Gospel. If it is gospel then it is good news. It is not a question of perception, but one of content.

The Gospel is good news to them who find conviction by the Spirit under the Law and look to Christ for salvation.

There it is again. JM says the Gospel is not good news to everyone.

That's right. The Gospel is good news to those that believe. To unbelievers the Gospel means nothing.

I wrote;

A very shallow reading of this passage has caused you some confusion.

You responded with:

Glad to see your confession.

Your response was nonsense.

The best point you made on the subject and a very Calvinistic point at that!

"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

;-) If the free proclamation for the Gospel is what you are getting at, this passage is just a blanket call to the elect to gather. There is no salvation offer since "...few are chosen."

Matthew 11:28-29 Should it be believed that only the elect are weary and burdened? No, of course not.

Already answered. Here it is again since you missed, " All humanity needs rest from sin but not all humanity will recognize the need for Christ. Only those wounded by the Holy Spirit will acknowledge their burden, give up their false religion and idols and rest in Jesus Christ alone for the saving of their souls. What you suggest gives far too much credit to fallen, sinful man. I agree with you that Romans 3 describes humanity but I do not agree that anything good, that results in their salvation, can come from the men and women described in that passage."

All humanity needs rest for their souls and is invited to come to Jesus.

I wrote, "All humanity needs rest from sin but not all humanity will recognize the need for Christ." And you agree:

True.

So what causes on to differ? According to you the spiritual ability to see and respond to the offer. You are basically saying, "God has done all He can and now you must do the rest to get saved."

I wrote, Only those wounded by the Holy Spirit will acknowledge their burden, give up their false religion and idols and rest in Jesus Christ alone for the saving of their souls."

And you asked:

Wounded by the Holy Spirit?

By this statement I mean a person who has been convicted of sin and crushed by the weight of their sinfulness, as they stand before a holy God, will seek to rest in the Saviour's blood. The burden of sin becomes too much to tolerate and so, by the Holy Spirit, the soul is taught to look to Christ and be relieved of the burden. All people feel the weight of their sin but do not understand their lack of holiness. They fear the natural, earthly consequences of sin without considering God at all.

With this post I want to clarify that I do not believe in Universalism.

Universalism believes that everyone is saved.

No, you believe in hypothetical universalism. Hypothetical everyone who ever lived, even if they never heard the Gospel, has a chance to be saved. It is after all what God owes them...a chance. Christ died for all the sins of every single person who ever lived (accept the sin of unbelief cause that would really be universalism).

[quote\I do not believe this no matter how hard JM tries to pin it on me. I believe the atonement is universal in it's provision and LIMITED to those who believe. This is not Universalism. [/quote] Did Christ not die for the sin of unbelief?

bruHAhahHAHHAhah

jm
PS: I won't be around after today for about a week.

 

[JM]

Genesis 3:11
And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

God ordained the fall. The logic is there...even for the Arminian. If God foresaw that Adam would plunge all mankind into sin and still put the tree there for the whole thing to play out...why? God gave the command knowing before hand that it would cause sin to enter the world.

Why else? Unless you claim that God didn't know, and this is called Open Theism, you are heterodox in your belief.

Jeremiah 11:8 and Matthew 15:3

The purpose of God's Law and His commandments are always the same, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Gal 3:24-25)

No one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ, we agree and Law/commandments were given to drive us to the Christ.

That which He commands He accomplishes.

The Bible teaches a hidden will of God and a decretive or revealed will.

Remember David was told not to number the people (2 Samuel 24, 1 Chron 21,22) and then God had Him number the people. The revealed will was a command not to number the people while the hidden will of God was still accomplished with the sin of David. David was commanded not to but then God had Him break that very commandment. It was His will.

Another example can be found in Genesis 50.20. Joseph says to his brothers, " ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good." According to God's revealed will in scripture his brothers were to love him and not sell him into slavery. Their acts were pure evil and against God's revealed will. But in the hidden will of God we find a purpose in their evil disobedience and that was to, "to save much people alive." Again, "you thought evil" "BUT GOD meant good"

So, to clarify my comment quoted above, I believe that God's will of decree will always be accomplished and that means those He wills to save will be saved. If God wanted to save everybody He would. When God commandments repentance from dead in sin, fallen man, He will bring about repentance in that creature. Just as Lazarus was commanded to raise from the dead by Christ...Lazarus didn't have the power within his corpse to get up, he was still commanded to come forth.

This is a much deeper discussion and I really do not have the time for it. I would urge you to really dig into scripture and see for yourself.

jm

 

[Arcoe]

God ordained the fall. The logic is there...even for the Arminian. If God foresaw that Adam would plunge all mankind into sin and still put the tree there for the whole thing to play out...why? God gave the command knowing before hand that it would cause sin to enter the world.

I am sure you want me to take your word as Gospel; however, your assumption of God ordaining the fall is nowhere to found in the Bible. No logic exists for man-made doctrine.

If I am to take your words seriously, at least provide passages which support your belief.

Why was the tree in the garden? The same reason you are free to choose between good or evil. You do believe you have the freedom to choose between good or evil, right?

Here again, God's command to Adam was not accomplished, no matter how it is viewed.

Why else? Unless you claim that God didn't know, and this is called Open Theism, you are heterodox in your belief.

Why would I claim God didn't know? I believe in His omniscience. What you forget is that knowing does not mean doing.

The purpose of God's Law and His commandments are always the same, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Gal 3:24-25)

Jesus said the purpose of the law was for eternal life.

Luke 10-
25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”


Please notice, Jesus truthfully said, do the things from the law listed by the lawyer, and YOU WILL LIVE! Why would anyone question the words of Jesus? The answer is unbelief; they do not truly believe the words of the Lord.

No one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ, we agree and Law/commandments were given to drive us to the Christ.

How were the saints of the OT saved? How did salvation come to the house of Zaccheus before the finished work of Christ?

The Bible teaches a hidden will of God and a decretive or revealed will.

IF there were a hidden will of God, how would you know what it entails?

Remember David was told not to number the people (2 Samuel 24, 1 Chron 21,22) and then God had Him number the people. The revealed will was a command not to number the people while the hidden will of God was still accomplished with the sin of David. David was commanded not to but then God had Him break that very commandment. It was His will.

Nice try on your part, but nothing is said of a secret will of God in the life of David.

You have one will of God contradicting another will of His. This reminds me of Jesus' words, "a kingdom divided against itself will not stand".

 

[gmm4j]

Excellent comments Arcoe.

 

[gmm4j]

JM (you are in red),
God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.


Ahhh, not so fast.

Eli's house was prevented by God from being cleansed with sacrifice and offering FOREVER (1 Samuel 3.14).

Yes, and the context tells us exactly why God did this.

1 Sam 2:27-31
Now a man of God came to Eli and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Did I not clearly reveal myself to your father's house when they were in Egypt under Pharaoh? 28 I chose your father out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to go up to my altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod in my presence. I also gave your father's house all the offerings made with fire by the Israelites. 29 Why do you scorn my sacrifice and offering that I prescribed for my dwelling? Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?' 30 "Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that your house and your father's house would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

1 Sam 3:13-14
13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them. 14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, 'The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'"

As I said, God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

Don't forget the ministry of Isaiah 6 were we find the judicial hardening of the reprobate by God (v10),
Hebrew; Septuagint of Isaian 6:9-10, 'You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; | you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' | [10] This people's heart has become calloused; | they hardly hear with their ears, | and they have closed their eyes

These were already a hard-hearted people and God knew the preaching of Isaiah would only harden them further.

Again,God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

God closed the eyes of the folks in Isaiah 29.9-12 as well.

Again,

Is 29 is a judgment on Jerusalem who has already hardened themselves.

Isa 3:8-9
Jerusalem staggers, Judah is falling; their words and deeds are against the LORD, defying his glorious presence. 9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom;
they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

Wow. That sounds a lot like what I said. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves. Because of their continual rejection you finally have God giving them over to themselves.

Isa 29:9-10
Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless; be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer. 10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers).

Isa 30:1-2
"Woe to the obstinate children, "declares the LORD, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin; 2 who go down to Egypt without consulting me;

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

Who can forget the son of perdition was lost on purpose (John 17.12),

John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The one doomed to destruction, fulfilling Scripture, was doomed because he chose to betray Christ, not because God ordained and forcibly made him betray Christ.

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God created vessels of wrath fitted or made for destruction (9.21-22),

Rom 9:21-23
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?

Of course He has the right and He does as He wills. And, this is what He wills… He wills those who have faith to be used for noble purposes and those who do not for common uses. He also bares with great patience those who will never receive Him. He places them, raises them up, and uses their obstinacy for His ultimate ends.

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.