Limited Provision?

[gmm4j]

Hey JM,

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

Your response…

some of Israel will be saved others were blinded (Romans 11.7).

Rom 11:7-12
What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Rom 11:19-23

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Again, God gives them over to themselves because they had already fallen and been broken off due to unbelief. But even their stupor and darkened eyes are not beyond recovery (v11). If they do not persist in unbelief they will be grafted in (v23).

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves

But wait folks, that's not all...

God sent some individuals strong delusion causing them to believe a lie that they might be damned. (2 Thessalonians 2.11) And why is that? They were ordained to condemnation (Jude 4) just like Pharaoh (Exodus 9.16).

2 Thess 2:10-12
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The reason (v11) He sends the delusion is because they already had refused to love the truth.

Jude 4-8

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. 8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies,

Godless men who deny Jesus are ordained to condemnation. They are not ordained to deny Jesus.

Ex 9:15-17
For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

This text does not say that Pharaoh was ordained to condemnation. Too tired to go beyond showing your use of this reference is hog wash J

 

[gmm4j]

JM,

In reference to my comment, God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves, you said,

The Lord also led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19.14) and created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16.4) God created the wicked for the day of evil.

Because Egypt served idols (Is 19:1).

Prov 16:4-7

The LORD works out everything for his own ends — even the wicked for a day of disaster. 5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. 6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. 7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

He even works through the wicked, yet they will not go unpunished.

The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

 

[Arcoe]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God created vessels of wrath fitted or made for destruction (9.21-22),

Rom 9:21-23
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?

Of course He has the right and He does as He wills. And, this is what He wills… He wills those who have faith to be used for noble purposes and those who do not for common uses. He also bares with great patience those who will never receive Him. He places them, raises them up, and uses their obstinacy for His ultimate ends.

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

As gmm has said, God loves all. As far as the vessel fitted for destruction, have you not read 2 Timothy 2:19-22?

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

In a great house are vessels to honor and to dishonor. However, if a man will purge himself (depart) from iniquity, he will be a vessel unto honor, prepared for every good work.

So, it is up to man whether he is a vessel to honor or dishonor. Those who choose to be a vessel to dishonor are vessels fitted for destruction.

 

[CalledOutOne]

Should a man love every woman the exact same way he loves his wife?

 

[Arcoe]

Should a man love every woman the exact same way he loves his wife?

If you are talking about the lower physical love of the flesh - NO!

However, if you speaking of the higher spiritual love of the heart, as presented in 1 Cor. 13 - definitely YES!

 

[gmm4j]

The analogy isn’t analogous. God created man in His image and likeness to walk with Him in the cool of the day and have fellowship with Him. We were created to be His companion. We committed adultery. He came after us. We can either accept or reject His proposal to be united again through Christ.

I think the concept of “loving some people above others” is a faulty concept for God who is agape’ (unconditional love).

God is love. His love is without favoritism. If He favored some over others He would be contradicting His own Word and He would be sinning, which is impossible.

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

Romans 2:9-11
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

James 2:8-9
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

God’s “particular” love is actually God’s general love applied.

So, how do you get a particular love out of a general love that does not show favoritism? Answer: You allow men to freely choose to receive the love or not.

The father loved the prodigal (dead son) the same as he loved the son who stayed home. The world can squander God’s love or return to the Father through Christ and Live in the benefits of that love.

 

[JM]

I am sure you want me to take your word as Gospel; however, your assumption of God ordaining the fall is nowhere to found in the Bible. No logic exists for man-made doctrine. If I am to take your words seriously, at least provide passages which support your belief.

Sophistry!

Believe it or not and no, I will not take your word as Gospel either... But consider the conclusions of your position and you have few choices. We will discard Open Theism since that is an awful heresy and I do want to slander you. And we can forget the idea that God doesn't know the future since that would mean God doesn't know something and the Bible tells us He is all knowing.

You must believe that God created a world knowing it would be plunged into sin and millions would end up in Hell with Christ as an after thought in the whole matter. Christ was nothing more then a way to save folks after God learned they would fall.

Why was the tree in the garden?

Why was the tree in garden? I have already answered it. Law was given to show us our need for Christ. Are you suggesting Adam would have EARNED eternal life by Law keeping?

The same reason you are free to choose between good or evil. You do believe you have the freedom to choose between good or evil, right?

I do not believe in the Arminian notion of libertarian freewill. We are free to choose according to our nature and our nature is fallen, sinful and we cannot choose to do anything pleasing before God (before regeneration and faith).

We are spiritually dead (Genesis 2:16-17; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3; John 3:5-7; Romans 5:12; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13) with our minds and hearts darkened (Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 4:17-19; Ephesians 5:8; Titus 1:15).

All of humanity is in bondage to sin and satan before we are born again (John 8:34; John 8:44; Romans 6:20; Ephesians 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; Titus 3:3; 1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:19)

This bondage is universal (1 Kings 8:46; 2 Chronicles 6:36; Job 15:14-16; Psalm 130:3; Psalm 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Isaiah 53:6; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-12; James 3:2; James 3:8; 1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10) and without the power of God we are unable to change (Job 14:4; Jeremiah 23:13; Matthew 7:16-18; Matthew 12:33; John 6:44; John 6:65; Romans 11:35-36; 1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7; 2 Corinthians 3:5)

Here again, God's command to Adam was not accomplished, no matter how it is viewed.

Just so I understand your thinking…you have been combing the scriptures for example of God failing to accomplish His will?

Are you a Christian? (rhetorical question asked for effect)

What is your hope?

Do you believe God will save you from your sins and hell?

If God has failed to accomplish His will in the past what makes you think He will accomplish His will in the future?

You really have no hope if God is cannot accomplish the act of redemption. If God loves everybody and wants to save everybody and He doesn’t save everybody…what makes you think He will save you?

Is it a warm fuzzy feeling you get when you read the Bible?

Is it subjective or objective...or both?

How is God sovereign if anything comes to pass without the will of God or if something happens contrary to the will of God and His command (Lam. 3:37)? How is God a sovereign Being if He cannot act according to His will in heaven and earth after the counsel of his will? (Dan. 4:35; Eph. 1:11) He cannot be sovereign is the only answer you can give.

How is this world a crap shoot and by that I mean chance? How is salvation based on the supposed freewill of men and independent of the will of God? How is God sovereign if He must depend on the actions of men, them acting with total libertarian freewill, to accomplish His purpose and goals?

How can it be said "of him, and through him, and to him, are all things?"

A. W. Pink and plenty of others point out that a wise person builds with determination and of what materials it shall be made of...how it will be made and to what end it will be made and used for. Is it possible to imagine an all wise, all knowing God without any thought and determination as to the outcome of His creation? (Isa. 28:29)

Why would I claim God didn't know? I believe in His omniscience. What you forget is that knowing does not mean doing.

Knowing does mean doing for God! God is never inactive or passive. He is never idle or still and that is why I quote Gen. 50.

Jesus said the purpose of the law was for eternal life. Luke 10 Please notice, Jesus truthfully said, do the things from the law listed by the lawyer, and YOU WILL LIVE! Why would anyone question the words of Jesus? The answer is unbelief; they do not truly believe the words of the Lord.

Pelagius essentially made the same claim; that we can EARN eternal life, without Christ, by Law keeping.

" Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Gal 3:24)

Again, what is the purpose of Law? Does it make you good enough to get into heaven as you suggest? No. The purpose of the Law is to convict of sin. Jesus is telling "lawyer" that keeping the Law perfectly, as if it can be done, will earn you heaven. (Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18) Law can never be performed perfectly by imperfect humanity and eternal life is always by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I must place emphasis here: SALVATION IS THROUGH CHRIST ALONE.

How were the saints of the OT saved? How did salvation come to the house of Zaccheus before the finished work of Christ?

Wow, you really do believe Law keeping saves. I guess the real question is how do you think people get saved if there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ? The old testament saints were saved in the same way we are, full and completely (Hebrews 9:15, 22; Romans 3:25) because justification is an immanent act of God's grace. (Rom. 3.24)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Eph 1:3-6 see also 2 Timothy 1:9)

IF there were a hidden will of God, how would you know what it entails? Nice try on your part, but nothing is said of a secret will of God in the life of David. You have one will of God contradicting another will of His. This reminds me of Jesus' words, "a kingdom divided against itself will not stand".

You would know after it is revealed as I already posted and you ignored. It doesn't have to have the word "secret" for it to be a secret revealed. Lets try it again, remember David was told not to number the people (2 Samuel 24, 1 Chron 21,22) and then God had Him number the people. The revealed will was a command not to number the people while the hidden will of God was still accomplished with the sin of David. David was commanded not to but then God had Him break that very commandment. It was His will. see also Gen. 50.20

Yes, and the context tells us exactly why God did this. 1 Sam 2:27-31 Again,God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

Ignore it all you want God still would not accept the sacrifices of their offspring whatsoever...FOREVER. Use all the underling, bold and italics you like the fact remains...ELI'S HOUSE WAS PREVENTED FROM MAKING SACRIFICES FOREVER. (using caps just for you) Did the descendents of Eli have a chance, according to this passage, to reject God's love? Nope.

 

[JM]

About Isa. 6 you wrote:

These were already a hard-hearted people and God knew the preaching of Isaiah would only harden them further.

Shell game. Early in this thread you quoted Romans 3 and said it cover everyone, all of humanity : "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."

In the picture painted with words above...can you honestly say any hearts are NOT hard hearted? lol (ouch, my pinky finger just cramped)

Again, Is 29 is a judgment on Jerusalem who has already hardened themselves. Isa 3:8-9

Calvinists believe mankind will only get what they deserve. Nothing more or less. Salvation is a gift from God and scripture tells us it is free and unmerited. Pointing to scriptures that declare the total inability of man to keep God's Law or mans total depravity only agrees with the biblical teachings Calvinists contend for.

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

I don't know what you had in mind with that statement but it doesn't really follow your line of thought. Besides, our reject of God is apart of our fallen nature: "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:3) The Bible doesn't teach that we are born without sin, a blank slate, just waiting to choose good or evil. We are by nature children of wrath.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (Joh 17:12)

The one doomed to destruction, fulfilling Scripture, was doomed because he chose to betray Christ, not because God ordained and forcibly made him betray Christ.

It would be nice if you actually deal with what I post and deal with the text quoted instead of just jumping to conclusions. Sure, the one lost was lost because he was by nature a child of wrath, a son of satan and a slave to sin. But he was lost on purpose as the text states just as the evil act of selling Joseph into slavery was a sin committed by Joseph's brothers but done purposely by God. The son of perdition was lost to fulfill scripture, what he did was evil and he willingly did it, but it was God that ordained it and made it so. It brought Christ to the cross to save sinners just as the selling of Joseph was done "to save many."

Rom 9:21-23 Of course He has the right and He does as He wills.

Ok, sounds good...where are we going with this...

And, this is what He wills… He wills those who have faith

yeah, and...

to be used for noble purposes and those who do not for common uses. He also bares with great patience those who will never receive Him. He places them, raises them up, and uses their obstinacy for His ultimate ends.

where is the point to destroy limited atonement?

Rom 11:7-12 and Rom 11:19-23

That's right, "God hath given them" what did he say?

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber" Say what?

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." Well, that sums it all up. The Bible teaches that man, without God's grace, can do nothing. God "gave them a spirit" and they continue their course.

2 Thess 2

He sends the delusion is because they already had refused to love the truth.

Oooookay, why didn't God send them a stronger Holy Spirit, one that could overcome their sin?

Why did he enforce their unbelief?

If God loves everyone why did He send them a strong delusion to believe something that was untrue?

Did God add to their sin by convincing them of a lie?

For the biblicist this isn't a problem since we believe man is dead in sin and doesn't deserve to even hear the precious name of Christ whispered in their sinful presence for even that is grace. God did not try to convince these sinners but made sure they couldn't repent and turn from their sinful selves. They were given a lie to believe instead.

Did you already state that God loves everyone and died for everyone? Did Christ not die for the sin of unbelief?

Godless men who deny Jesus are ordained to condemnation. They are not ordained to deny Jesus.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jud 1:4)

They were "ordained to this condemnation." Your slight of hand missed that point.

 

[JM]

This text does not say that Pharaoh was ordained to condemnation. Ex 9:15-17

It does, right here:

"But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exo 9:16)

You even quoted it and underlined it. The text gives "for this purpose." And what was the purpose?

"that I might show you my power"

And how did God show His power?

By destroying Pharaoh and his army with judgments, death and pain...one right after another until He was finally destroyed in the Red Sea.

I posted, "The Lord also led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19.14) and created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16.4) God created the wicked for the day of evil."

And you wrote:

Because Egypt served idols (Is 19:1)

Isaiah 19.1 is a prophecy or "an oracle concerning Egypt." God is foretelling what He is going to do with Egypt and that includes the passage I referenced, "The LORD has mingled within her a spirit of confusion, and they will make Egypt stagger in all its deeds, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit." (Isa 19:14) Is there any doubt God doesn't want Egypt to repent and believe? Does God plead with Egypt or does He send them a spirit of confusion so they can't believe even if their freewill wanted to? Freewill...mans great idol!

Prov 16:4-7 He even works through the wicked, yet they will not go unpunished.

I posted a reference to Proverbs that reads, "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." You highlighted the wicked deeds the wicked will do.

As far as the vessel fitted for destruction, have you not read 2 Timothy 2:19-22? In a great house are vessels to honor and to dishonor. However, if a man will purge himself (depart) from iniquity, he will be a vessel unto honor, prepared for every good work. So, it is up to man whether he is a vessel to honor or dishonor. Those who choose to be a vessel to dishonor are vessels fitted for destruction.

I have and it is written to believers (.19), those that name of the name of Christ and "The Lord knoweth them that are his." Back it up to v.15 and you see a reference to being good workers in the cause of Christ and to avoid false teachers (examples given Hymenaeus and Philetus). The passage is about pursuing holiness, doctrinal purity and not earning salvation as you suggest.

God is love.

God is also just, wrathful, jealous, etc.

His love is without favoritism.

Try telling your spouse that your love is without favouritism.

If He favored some over others He would be contradicting His own Word and He would be sinning, which is impossible. Acts 10:34-35 Romans 2:9-11

Lets test your humanism a little. Is God a respecter of persons? Absolutely not. He loves all kinds of humanity from the prince to the pauper but does this passage teach that God doesn't love some specifically? Nope. You are reading into it. God doesn't love based on human status and that's all Peter and Paul are talking about here.

James 2:8-9

Great passage, you just need to back it up some, "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?" (Jas 2:6) Again, showing favoritism based on worldly status is sinful. That's all these passages mean.

God’s “particular” love is actually God’s general love applied.

Huh? Too much philosophy here. Scripture please.

So, how do you get a particular love out of a general love that does not show favoritism? Answer: You allow men to freely choose to receive the love or not.

Now God is showing favouritism to those that choose Him? I thought God's love was UNCONDITIONAL? Choosing Him to be saved would be a CONDITION or cause of salvation. According to you God is showing favouritism to those who are more spiritual and respond to God.

The father loved the prodigal (dead son) the same as he loved the son who stayed home. The world can squander God’s love or return to the Father through Christ and Live in the benefits of that love.

Yeah, that's what I posted, God's love is unconditional. He didn't stop loving the Prodigal son and send him a delusion or spirit of slumber or stupor to harden his heart...now did He.

My pinky keeps cramping up!

This is the end for a while. I did not read over this post so please forgive any typos or errors on my part. I have to admit it has been fun but I do have other duties I must attend to. I don't know if I'll respond or not to any further posts but we'll see.



Enjoy!

jm

 

[Arcoe]

Sophistry!

Believe it or not and no, I will not take your word as Gospel either... But consider the conclusions of your position and you have few choices. We will discard Open Theism since that is an awful heresy and I do want to slander you. And we can forget the idea that God doesn't know the future since that would mean God doesn't know something and the Bible tells us He is all knowing.

As I said, He is omniscient, which is all-knowing and not knowing and doing.

You must believe that God created a world knowing it would be plunged into sin and millions would end up in Hell with Christ as an after thought in the whole matter. Christ was nothing more then a way to save folks after God learned they would fall.

You believe God created a world knowing He would Himself plunge millions into sin and subsequently, send them to Hell, even when He had the power and means to save them, but created them anyway. Christ becomes meaningless to His own creation.

And yes, I believe Christ is the WAY to salvation for all.

Why was the tree in garden? I have already answered it. Law was given to show us our need for Christ. Are you suggesting Adam would have EARNED eternal life by Law keeping?

Adam knew nothing of a Savior to come into the world to save him. So, how did the law show Adam the need for Christ?

Do you think Adam would have lived forever if he kept the law, and obeyed God's command?

I do not believe in the Arminian notion of libertarian freewill. We are free to choose according to our nature and our nature is fallen, sinful and we cannot choose to do anything pleasing before God (before regeneration and faith).

You have the free will to choose the notion or deny it.

Since you say you received a new nature at regeneration; why is it you still choose to sin? Do you sin according to the new nature you received? How is your sinning with the new nature any different than one with the old nature?

How can you please God when you still choose to sin with the new nature and the 'gift of faith' He provided?

We are spiritually dead (Genesis 2:16-17; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3; John 3:5-7; Romans 5:12; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13) with our minds and hearts darkened (Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 4:17-19; Ephesians 5:8; Titus 1:15).

Spiritually dead is one who is a slave to sin; sin is his master and he delights in his sins. Here is what the Lord says about one who is in transgressions (spiritually dead):

Ezekiel 18 -
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

It is the one living in transgressions who needs a new heart and a new spirit (regeneration). It is this one who must cast away his transgressions and make himself a new heart. This is done through repentance. Until one repents, he is not regenerated, for he is still a slave to his sins. Read the last four words of the above passage - "Therefore, repent and live." Repentance is accomplished while the person is still unregenerate, or spiritually dead.

All of humanity is in bondage to sin and satan before we are born again (John 8:34; John 8:44; Romans 6:20; Ephesians 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; Titus 3:3; 1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:19)

True, thus the need for repentance.

This bondage is universal (1 Kings 8:46; 2 Chronicles 6:36; Job 15:14-16; Psalm 130:3; Psalm 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Isaiah 53:6; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-12; James 3:2; James 3:8; 1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10) and without the power of God we are unable to change (Job 14:4; Jeremiah 23:13; Matthew 7:16-18; Matthew 12:33; John 6:44; John 6:65; Romans 11:35-36; 1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7; 2 Corinthians 3:5)

True, thus the need for repentance.

Just so I understand your thinking…you have been combing the scriptures for example of God failing to accomplish His will?

That is not why I read the Bible.

Are you a Christian? (rhetorical question asked for effect)

Since my yes is to be yes, and my no to be no - yes.

What is your hope?

Do you believe God will save you from your sins and hell?

It is my hope and wish to be useful and loving to all those with whom I come in contact; to be obedient to the Lord's words.

Yes

If God has failed to accomplish His will in the past what makes you think He will accomplish His will in the future?

It is God's will for you to give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, invitation to the stranger, and visitation to the sick and imprisoned. How will His will be accomplished if you do not perform these good deeds?

You really have no hope if God is cannot accomplish the act of redemption. If God loves everybody and wants to save everybody and He doesn’t save everybody…what makes you think He will save you?

By obedience to His word.

Is it a warm fuzzy feeling you get when you read the Bible? I

s it subjective or objective...or both?

Can't say I've had a warm, fuzzy feeling reading the Bible; however, my heart has burned within as He reveals His truth.

Very few people read the Bible objectively, even if they say they do. For instance, you can't read the fall in the garden, without subjecting it to Calvinistic beliefs.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM,

How’s your pinky feeling? You are in red.

This text does not say that Pharaoh was ordained to condemnation. Ex 9:15-17

It does, right here:
"But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exo 9:16)

You even quoted it and underlined it. The text gives "for this purpose." And what was the purpose?
"that I might show you my power" And how did God show His power?

By destroying Pharaoh and his army with judgments, death and pain...one right after another until He was finally destroyed in the Red Sea.

Exodus 9:15-17
For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

Good try JM, but it does not say that Pharaoh was ordained to condemnation. The verse says that God raised him up for the purpose of showing His power knowing that (v17) he would harden his heart and not let His people go. In other words, God took a guy He knew would harden his heart at the confrontations of Moses and arranged situations for him to be raised up to become Pharaoh over Egypt, instead of a being a cup bearer or a shoe maker.

So, God bore with great patience one prepared for destruction, but what prepared or fitted him for destruction was his own hard heart and rebellion against the Lord, not God’s unconditional pre-ordaination.

I posted, "The Lord also led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19.14) and created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16.4) God created the wicked for the day of evil."

And you wrote:

Because Egypt served idols (Is 19:1)

Yup.

Isaiah 19.1 is a prophecy or "an oracle concerning Egypt." God is foretelling what He is going to do with Egypt and that includes the passage I referenced, "The LORD has mingled within her a spirit of confusion, and they will make Egypt stagger in all its deeds, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit." (Isa 19:14) Is there any doubt God doesn't want Egypt to repent and believe?

Keep reading…

Isaiah 19:20-22
When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them. 22 The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

It sure looks like He wants them to cry out to Him!

Does God plead with Egypt or does He send them a spirit of confusion sothey can't believe even if their freewill wanted to?

“When they cry out to the Lord…” Yup, God wants them to turn to Him.

Freewill...mans great idol!

Says you, not Scripture.

Prov 16:4-7 He even works through the wicked, yet they will not go unpunished.

I posted a reference to Proverbs that reads, "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." You highlighted the wicked deeds the wicked will do.

Again… He even works through the wicked, yet they will not go unpunished.

God is love.

God is also just, wrathful, jealous, etc.

Yup.

His love is without favoritism.

Try telling your spouse that your love is without favouritism.

Not analogous.

If He favored some over others He would be contradicting His own Word and He would be sinning, which is impossible. Acts 10:34-35 Romans 2:9-11


Lets test your humanism a little. Is God a respecter of persons? Absolutely not.

Very Good.

He loves all kinds of humanity from the prince to the pauper

Very Good.

but does this passage teach that God doesn't love some specifically? Nope.

It teaches God does not show favoritism.

You are reading into it.

No I am not.

God doesn't love based on human status and that's all Peter and Paul are talking about here.

LOL J

Acts 10:34-36
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Rom 2:7-11
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

God does not show favoritism. That is all Peter and Paul are talking about here.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

James 2:8-9

Great passage, you just need to back it up some, "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?" (Jas 2:6) Again, showing favoritism based on worldly status is sinful. That's all these passages mean.

James 2:8-10
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

God does not show favoritism and in order to be like God, we should not show favoritism. That’s all these passages mean.

God’s “particular” love is actually God’s general love applied.

Huh?

Let me say it again. God’s particular love is actually God’s general love applied.

Too much philosophy here. Scripture please.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God’s general love is applied by the belief of particular individuals.

Jonah 3:10
When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
Jonah 4:2-3
I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.
Jonah 4:11
But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"

God abounded in love and compassion toward a hundred and twenty thousand evil Ninevites and sent the prophet Jonah to tell them to repent. When He saw that they repented, He relented from bringing destruction upon them. God’s general love became an applied love for them particularly.

Deut 7:9-13
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him. 11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today. 12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. 13 He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers.

He keeps His covenant of love if you love him. But, if you hate Him, He will bring destruction upon you. The covenant of love hasn’t changed. God is still love. What is changed is that men reject His loving provision. The general covenant of love is particularly applied to those who meet the covenant conditions. If an individual rejects the covenantal provision, then God’s

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 15:9-14
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

So, how do you get a particular love out of a general love that does not show favoritism? Answer: You allow men to freely choose to receive the love or not.

Now God is showing favouritism to those that choose Him?

No. God is not showing favoritism because He lovingly offers salvation to everyone. The offer is universal.

I thought God's love was UNCONDITIONAL?

It is. He loves mankind so much that He provided salvation for everyone.

Choosing Him to be saved would be a CONDITION or cause of salvation.

God provided salvation for everyone. Men receive or reject the provision by faith.

According to you God is showing favouritism to those who are more spiritual and respond to God.

No. God provided salvation for everyone and it is particularly applied to those who receive His provision and favor by faith.

The father loved the prodigal (dead son) the same as he loved the son who stayed home. The world can squander God’s love or return to the Father through Christ and Live in the benefits of that love.

Yeah, that's what I posted, God's love is unconditional. He didn't stop loving the Prodigal son and send him a delusion or spirit of slumber or stupor to harden his heart...now did He.

Nope. He didn’t. Your point?

My pinky keeps cramping up!

You need to get that looked at.

About Isa. 6 you wrote:

These were already a hard-hearted people and God knew the preaching of Isaiah would only harden them further.

Shell game. Early in this thread you quoted Romans 3 and said it cover everyone, all of humanity : "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."

In the picture painted with words above...can you honestlysay any hearts are NOT hard hearted? lol (ouch, my pinky finger just cramped)

Yes, I can. The partial quotes in Romans 3 are to show that we are all under sin, not to show that we all have the same kind of soil of heart. Remember… Some are rocky, some are shallow, some are thorny… These verses also do not show that man is unable to believe. Verses 9 and 10 shows us the purpose for the language… 9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:…

By the way, I know a good doctor for that finger.

Again, Is 29 is a judgment on Jerusalem who has already hardened themselves. Isa 3:8-9

Calvinists believe mankind will only get what they deserve. Nothing more or less.

Not sure if you really mean this. Mankind is already getting more than it deserves. Heard a great quote… Life on earth is the most heaven a reprobate person will ever experience and it is the most hell a saved person will ever experience.

Salvation is a gift from God and scripture tells us it is free and unmerited.

Amen.

Pointing to scriptures that declare the total inability of man to keep God's Law or mans total depravity only agrees with the biblical teachings Calvinists contend for.

I agree with man’s total depravity and inability to keep God’s Law, but not with man’s inability to believe.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM (you are in red),

God loves all. The reprobate wicked reject His love bringing wrath upon themselves.

I don't know what you had in mind with that statement but it doesn't really follow your line of thought. Besides, our rejection of God is apart of our fallen nature: "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:3) The Bible doesn't teach that we are born without sin, a blank slate, just waiting to choose good or evil. We are by nature children of wrath.

I agree with you, however, I believe the Word is introduced to the soil of our nature and it has the power to change us.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (Joh 17:12)

The one doomed to destruction, fulfilling Scripture, was doomed because he chose to betray Christ, not because God ordained and forcibly made him betray Christ.

It would be nice if you actually deal with what I post and deal with the text quoted instead of just jumping to conclusions. Sure, the one lost was lost because he was by nature a child of wrath, a son of satan and a slave to sin. But he was lost on purpose as the text states just as the evil act of selling Joseph into slavery was a sin committed by Joseph's brothers but done purposely by God.

Judas wasn’t ordained by God to be lost. He was a lost person who God used for a purpose. Then, regarding Joseph, God purposely used the evil act of Joseph’s brothers selling him to position him for good, however, God did not purposely cause Joseph’s brothers to sin. Big difference. Both within God’s ability, but one is in keeping with His nature and His Word, while the other makes him out to be the author of evil.

The son of perdition was lost to fulfill scripture,

No. One who would lift his heel against the Lord being positioned within the Twelve fulfilled scripture. His being lost did fulfill scripture.

what he did was evil and he willingly did it,

True.

but it was God that ordained it and made it so.

God allowed it and used it, but He did not make Judas do what he did.

It brought Christ to the cross to save sinners just as the selling of Joseph was done "to save many."

Amen. God used their evil intent to bring about His purposes.

Rom 9:21-23 Of course He has the right and He does as He wills.

Ok, sounds good...where are we going with this...

And, this is what He wills… He wills those who have faith

yeah, and...

to be used for noble purposes and those who do not for common uses. He also bares with great patience those who will never receive Him. He places them, raises them up, and uses their obstinacy for His ultimate ends.

where is the point to destroy limited atonement?

I don’t want to destroy limited atonement. I believe in limited atonement. Unlimited provision, limited to those who receive it by faith.

Rom 11:7-12 and Rom 11:19-23

That's right, "God hath given them" what did he say? "God hath given them the spirit of slumber" Say what?
"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." Well, that sums it all up. The Bible teaches that man, without God's grace, can do nothing. God "gave them a spirit" and they continue their course.

Rom 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Rom 11:19-23
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Well, there it is right there in the Word. That sums it all up. The Bible teaches that man was given a spirit of stupor because of their unbelief.

Rom 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

2 Thess 2
He sends the delusion is because they already had refused to love the truth.

Oooookay, why didn't God send them a stronger Holy Spirit, one that could overcome their sin? Why did he enforce their unbelief? If God loves everyone why did He send them a strong delusion to believe something that was untrue? Did God add to their sin by convincing them of a lie?

2 Thess 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

He sends them a powerful delusion because they have already refused the truth and delight in wickedness. Why didn’t God send them a stronger Holy Spirit? You’ll have to ask Him, but it is probably because He gave them ample opportunity to repent and ample presentations of the truth, which they refused. Why did He enforce their unbelief? Because God has allowed man the ability to choose and if man has chosen to reject Him, He will and can use those decisions. If God loves everyone why did He send him or her a delusion to believe something that was untrue? Because they had already made their choice and God knows the heart. He loved them and brought them the truth but they rejected it. Did God add to their sin by convincing them of a lie? No.

For the biblicist this isn't a problem since we believe man is dead in sin and doesn't deserve to even hear the precious name of Christ whispered in their sinful presence for even that is grace.

And all Biblicists agree and say amen.

God did not try to convince these sinners but made sure they couldn't repent and turn from their sinful selves. They were given a lie to believe instead.

In order to refuse the truth at some point they must have been presented with it.

Did you already state that God loves everyone and died for everyone?

If I didn’t, I should have.

Did Christ not die for the sin of unbelief?

There is an unforgivable sin. What is the one sin that God does not forgive and will result in you perishing?

Godless men who deny Jesus are ordained to condemnation. They are not ordained to deny Jesus.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jud 1:4)

They were "ordained to this condemnation." Your slight of hand missed that point.

They were ordained to condemnation because they denied Jesus. They were not pre-ordained to deny Jesus.

Jude 4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[Foghorn]

Hello all. Been busy, just wanted to say hi. Hope all are doing well.

 

[Eddie L]