- Jun 26, 2004
- 17,480
- 3,740
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Others
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Limited Provision?
- Thread starter gmm4j
- Start date
Hey JM,
Went to the link. Pink says,
The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’
believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life."
The text does not say that He was given for everyone who believes. The text says that He was given that whosoever believes.
Then he makes this argument:
That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Rom. 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Heb. 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, I John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!
Verses that state God’s particular love and those verses that state His pity, kindness and patience toward the wicked do not exempt Him from loving in general. In fact, one should wonder why God pities and is kind toward those He hates. Perhaps, it is to lead them to repentance (Romans 2:4). Afterall, it is true, God is love (1 John 4:16).
JM, I know you believe that “world” in John 3:16 is the “world of believers,” and Pink does a good job using sources from outside the context, but based on the immediate context, I just can’t see "world" referring to anything but a “world” that was made through Him (1:10) and includes men who love the darkness instead of His light (3:19). This is the same “world” He has come into and the “world” He loves.
John 1:6-11
There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 12:46-48
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. 47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
Went to the link. Pink says,
The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’
believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." The text does not say that He was given for everyone who believes. The text says that He was given that whosoever believes.
Then he makes this argument:
That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Rom. 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Heb. 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, I John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!
Verses that state God’s particular love and those verses that state His pity, kindness and patience toward the wicked do not exempt Him from loving in general. In fact, one should wonder why God pities and is kind toward those He hates. Perhaps, it is to lead them to repentance (Romans 2:4). Afterall, it is true, God is love (1 John 4:16).
JM, I know you believe that “world” in John 3:16 is the “world of believers,” and Pink does a good job using sources from outside the context, but based on the immediate context, I just can’t see "world" referring to anything but a “world” that was made through Him (1:10) and includes men who love the darkness instead of His light (3:19). This is the same “world” He has come into and the “world” He loves.
John 1:6-11
There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 12:46-48
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. 47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
Upvote
0
- Jun 26, 2004
- 17,480
- 3,740
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Others
g,
I will not argue with a universalist, past experience has taught me the debate is too laboured and prolonged.
As you have clearly demonstrated you believe that Christ died for all in a saving way and that God gives light to everyman and not judgement. You argue that world refers to every single person that ever lived...in the context of the atonement.
You deny that you limit the atonement at all and now I get it. (this one is for me )
Why didn't you just come out and say it with your first post it would have saved us all time. Debating a universalist is like peeling an onion, so many layers to deal, I don't have the time.
I'm unsubscribing from this thread....jm
I will not argue with a universalist, past experience has taught me the debate is too laboured and prolonged.
As you have clearly demonstrated you believe that Christ died for all in a saving way and that God gives light to everyman and not judgement. You argue that world refers to every single person that ever lived...in the context of the atonement.
You deny that you limit the atonement at all and now I get it. (this one is for me ) Why didn't you just come out and say it with your first post it would have saved us all time. Debating a universalist is like peeling an onion, so many layers to deal, I don't have the time.
I'm unsubscribing from this thread....jm
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
I said, God loves everyone, even his enemies.
You replied,
God does not love his enemies and this statement is misleading.
My response:
Matt 5:44-48
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 6:35-36
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Romans 5:8-11
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Colossians 1:21-23
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
I said, God loves everyone, even his enemies.
You replied,
God does not love his enemies and this statement is misleading.
My response:
Matt 5:44-48
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 6:35-36
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Romans 5:8-11
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Colossians 1:21-23
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
You said,
In the Bible love is used interchangeably with mercy and forbearance and should be viewed in an Old Testament sense of the Law, being lawful to one another (Ex. 23.4, Deut. 22.1) and is a reference to being civil.
Not sure about your point here. Love is not only used as being lawful toward one another.
The emotional kind of love that you are presuming is not expressed toward the reprobate wicked.
Sure it is.
Ex 34:6-7
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
Ezek 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezek 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
I said,
God pleads with people to turn to Him so they will not die.
Your response,
The passages from Ezekiel are references to physical distress, plague and pestilence. You are claiming too much when you reference them in support of your doctrine.
Ezek 18:21-23
"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezek 18:31-32
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
If you think that all that is being dealt here is physical death, when they are to get a new heart and a new spirit, then I guess that’s what you are going to believe. There is no doubt these texts are referring to physical death, but they go much deeper.
You said,
In the Bible love is used interchangeably with mercy and forbearance and should be viewed in an Old Testament sense of the Law, being lawful to one another (Ex. 23.4, Deut. 22.1) and is a reference to being civil.
Not sure about your point here. Love is not only used as being lawful toward one another.
The emotional kind of love that you are presuming is not expressed toward the reprobate wicked.
Sure it is.
Ex 34:6-7
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
Ezek 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezek 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
I said,
God pleads with people to turn to Him so they will not die.
Your response,
The passages from Ezekiel are references to physical distress, plague and pestilence. You are claiming too much when you reference them in support of your doctrine.
Ezek 18:21-23
"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezek 18:31-32
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
If you think that all that is being dealt here is physical death, when they are to get a new heart and a new spirit, then I guess that’s what you are going to believe. There is no doubt these texts are referring to physical death, but they go much deeper.
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
You said,
In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not.
We were all in that state. I know you know this…
Romans 3:10-18
"There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
You said,
In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not.
We were all in that state. I know you know this…
Romans 3:10-18
"There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
You also state,
Besides, God does not "plead" to save souls. This is a common rationalistic approach to reading scripture and it fraught with difficultly. Did God "offer" or "plead" to every single person in the world who ever lived? No.
All revelation of Himself, general and specific, “pleads” with humanity to the extent they are left without excuse (Romans 1:20-21).
If God loves everyone and everyone is not saved His love is ineffectual and meaningless.
No. His love is effectual. It is specifically applied to those who receive it, and the depth of it is displayed and presented to even those who reject it. His love for all displays His Glory. What love what wondrous love!
If God does plead to save everyone, as you seem to be saying, that means the one who believes is spiritually superior to the one that does not.
Actually, it is the one who recognizes his inferiority and is humble before the Lord, who receives grace.
Scripture tells us what causes one to differ and it has nothing to do with spiritual superiority. (1 Cor. 4.7, Rom. 9.16)
He gives grace to the humble. J
Blessings!
You also state,
Besides, God does not "plead" to save souls. This is a common rationalistic approach to reading scripture and it fraught with difficultly. Did God "offer" or "plead" to every single person in the world who ever lived? No.
All revelation of Himself, general and specific, “pleads” with humanity to the extent they are left without excuse (Romans 1:20-21).
If God loves everyone and everyone is not saved His love is ineffectual and meaningless.
No. His love is effectual. It is specifically applied to those who receive it, and the depth of it is displayed and presented to even those who reject it. His love for all displays His Glory. What love what wondrous love!
If God does plead to save everyone, as you seem to be saying, that means the one who believes is spiritually superior to the one that does not.
Actually, it is the one who recognizes his inferiority and is humble before the Lord, who receives grace.
Scripture tells us what causes one to differ and it has nothing to do with spiritual superiority. (1 Cor. 4.7, Rom. 9.16)
He gives grace to the humble. J
Blessings!
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
You said regarding John 12:32-33,
The passage is about drawing all men to judgement (v.31), not salvation...look it up.
I did.
John 12:30-33
30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
The judgment that is being referred to is same judgment referred to in John 16:11.
11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
Judgment has been handed out and the devil is condemned. Salvation has come to the world / everyone and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their need to believe in the work of righteousness done on the cross.
John 16:8, When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
The convicting of the world, and the will draw all men to myself, sounds like they work together?
So the judgment you speak of is a judgment upon the prince of this (whole) world and the cross is victory over all sin, making righteousness / salvation available for the whole entire world that God created and loves J
You said regarding John 12:32-33,
The passage is about drawing all men to judgement (v.31), not salvation...look it up.
I did.
John 12:30-33
30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
The judgment that is being referred to is same judgment referred to in John 16:11.
11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
Judgment has been handed out and the devil is condemned. Salvation has come to the world / everyone and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their need to believe in the work of righteousness done on the cross.
John 16:8, When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
The convicting of the world, and the will draw all men to myself, sounds like they work together?
So the judgment you speak of is a judgment upon the prince of this (whole) world and the cross is victory over all sin, making righteousness / salvation available for the whole entire world that God created and loves J
Last edited:
Upvote
0
JM definitively states…
“The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.” – JM
Okay, there it is. The Good News is not good news to everyone.
“The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.” – JM
Okay, there it is. The Good News is not good news to everyone.
Upvote
0
Another great JM quote:
“The proclamation is just that, the preaching of a truth and not an "offer" of salvation as some teach and believe.” - JM
What? Are you kidding?
Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5 "But they paid no attention and went off-one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Matthew 11:28-29
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Should it be believed that only the elect are weary and burdened? No, of course not. All humanity needs rest for their souls and is invited to come to Jesus.
“The proclamation is just that, the preaching of a truth and not an "offer" of salvation as some teach and believe.” - JM
What? Are you kidding?
Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5 "But they paid no attention and went off-one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Matthew 11:28-29
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Should it be believed that only the elect are weary and burdened? No, of course not. All humanity needs rest for their souls and is invited to come to Jesus.
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
Regarding Romans 5:18-19 you state the following in red.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, JUST AS the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I would advise you to avoid the anti-calvinist sites. This is a good example of you googling up some references to argue with Calvinists.
Sure JM.
Romans 5.18 is about the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to those who belong to Him. If, as you suggest, Christ's righteousness is imputed to all then all are saved...period. You would have to deny the biblical teaching of hell if you use 5.18 in this manner. If Adam's sin caused the fall of all men then the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all men and all are saved.
Didn’t Adam’s sin cause the fall of all men?
I don’t know how the parallel can be made anymore simple, one for all to one for all. And, no I don’t have to deny the biblical teaching of hell. The imputation of righteousness doesn’t happen until it is received by faith. The provision of life that is for all men is applied specifically to those men who believe. God said it, you just have to receive it.
Really, tell me, are you implying that the condemnation that was brought about by Adam’s trespass was only for the elect? J
Regarding Romans 5:18-19 you state the following in red.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, JUST AS the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I would advise you to avoid the anti-calvinist sites. This is a good example of you googling up some references to argue with Calvinists.
Sure JM.
Romans 5.18 is about the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to those who belong to Him. If, as you suggest, Christ's righteousness is imputed to all then all are saved...period. You would have to deny the biblical teaching of hell if you use 5.18 in this manner. If Adam's sin caused the fall of all men then the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all men and all are saved.
Didn’t Adam’s sin cause the fall of all men?
I don’t know how the parallel can be made anymore simple, one for all to one for all. And, no I don’t have to deny the biblical teaching of hell. The imputation of righteousness doesn’t happen until it is received by faith. The provision of life that is for all men is applied specifically to those men who believe. God said it, you just have to receive it.
Really, tell me, are you implying that the condemnation that was brought about by Adam’s trespass was only for the elect? J
Upvote
0
Hey JM,
Here is your response to Romans 3:22 in red:
Romans 3:21-25
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 AND are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
Begs the question. Who are those who believe? And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48)
Dr. Brian Abasciano’s exegesis of Acts 13:48,
I would interpret Acts 13:48 much differently than Dan. I do not think it refers to election. A better translation of the passage is, “as many as were set in position for eternal life believed” or “as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” The word typically translated “appointed” can also be translated “to set in position” and can be used of human disposition/attitude, which fits the context of Acts 13:48 better, as it stands in contrasting parallel to the attitude of the Jews of the same episode who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, opposing Paul and rejecting the gospel (Acts 13:46). No agent of the action is identified for the passive verb, meaning it could be another agent like God that prepared the subjects for eternal life, or Paul as the preacher of the gospel, or the preaching of the gospel itself, or even the subjects of the passive verb themselves (akin to saying, “as many as were set for the test passed it”,[2] or most likely, a combination of these and other factors. It would be too involved to present an exegesis of this text in this setting; the matter deserves a whole article of its own. But suffice it to say here that Acts 13:48 fails to establish Dan’s point. Moreover, it is worth noting that Friberg’s lexicon lists “as many as had become disposed toward eternal life” as a possible translation.[3] Similarly, distinguished grammarian Max Zerwick indicates “who had been set (in the way)” as a possible translation in Zerwick and Grosvenor’s well known A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. And the most authoritative lexicon for New Testament studies (abbreviated BDAG) does not take the verb in question to mean “appoint,” but construes it under the meaning of “to put in place.”[4] It is not surprising, then, that the distinguished biblical scholar Henry Alford argued for the rendering, “as many as were disposed,” in his well respected 4 volume work, The Greek Testament. (John Piper of all people sings Alford’s praises thus: “When I’m stumped with a . . . grammatical or syntactical or logical flow [question] in Paul, I go to Henry Alford. Henry Alford mostly answers-he . . . comes closer more consistently than any other human commentator to asking my kinds of questions.” Alford’s treatment of Acts 13:48 can be found in this volume available online.
Dr. Cottrell’s exegesis:
The question is this: how can this be reconciled with the Arminian (non-Calvinist) view? The key lies in the form of the main Greek verb, tassō. The basic meaning of this verb is “to place, to order, to appoint, to ordain, to determine, to arrange in order.” As it appears in this text, the verb form is the participle tetagmenoi. It is simply assumed that this is the PASSIVE form of the verb, thus: “to be appointed, to be ordained, to be destined.” What is often forgotten is that in the Greek language, often the passive and the middle form of verbs are spelled exactly the same way. That is the case here. The word tetagmenoi can also be the MIDDLE form of the verb. Here is the main point: that is how it should be understood in Acts 13:48.
What does this verse mean, then? The middle voice of a verb in Greek is sometimes used in a reflexive sense. The idea is that the action of the verb is something performed by the subject (not by someone else upon the subject), but in such a way that the action is directed back toward the subject or the self. Understanding that the verb means “to place, to set, to arrange in a certain order or position,” we can see that the statement in 13:48 can quite validly be taken thus: “As many as arranged themselves unto (eis) eternal life believed,” or “As many as turned themselves toward eternal life believed,” or “As many as disposed themselves toward eternal life believed.”
Why should we accept this approach to the verb—i.e., as middle voice rather than passive? For two reasons. First, it agrees with the general overall teaching of Scripture, that turning toward God is a matter of free will and personal responsibility, not something unconditionally and irresistibly caused by God.
Second, this agrees with the context, where the Jews’ response to the gospel is being contrasted with that of the Gentiles. In Acts 13:13-41 Paul preached a powerful Sabbath sermon in the Jews’ synagogue at Antioch. Many of the Jews were so impressed that they asked for an encore the next Sabbath (vv. 42-43). Then on “the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord” (v. 44). This crowd obviously included many Gentiles, because “when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him” (v. 45). This provoked Paul and Barnabas to speak this judgment upon the Jews: “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles” (v. 46). This verse is important because it shows that the exclusion of the Jews from the ranks of the saved was their own choice, not the result of some predestining activity of God. The Jews specifically judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.
This is exactly the opposite of the Gentiles’ reaction, especially when Paul and Barnabas applied Isaiah 49:6 to themselves: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (v. 47). Verse 48 then describes the reaction of the Gentiles to this preaching. It was in fact just the opposite of the Jews’ reaction: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord.” Then follow the crucial words: and as many as set themselves toward eternal life believed. How did they set themselves toward eternal life? By hearing and heeding the word of God (see Rom. 10:17).
We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice. There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48.
Dr. Cottrell is a professor of Biblical Theology at Cincinnati Christian University. He has earned degrees from University of Cincinnati (B.A. - philosophy), Westminster Theological Seminary (M.Div) and Princeton Theological Seminary (Ph.D).
Here is your response to Romans 3:22 in red:
Romans 3:21-25
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 AND are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
Begs the question. Who are those who believe? And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48)
Dr. Brian Abasciano’s exegesis of Acts 13:48,
I would interpret Acts 13:48 much differently than Dan. I do not think it refers to election. A better translation of the passage is, “as many as were set in position for eternal life believed” or “as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” The word typically translated “appointed” can also be translated “to set in position” and can be used of human disposition/attitude, which fits the context of Acts 13:48 better, as it stands in contrasting parallel to the attitude of the Jews of the same episode who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, opposing Paul and rejecting the gospel (Acts 13:46). No agent of the action is identified for the passive verb, meaning it could be another agent like God that prepared the subjects for eternal life, or Paul as the preacher of the gospel, or the preaching of the gospel itself, or even the subjects of the passive verb themselves (akin to saying, “as many as were set for the test passed it”
,[2] or most likely, a combination of these and other factors. It would be too involved to present an exegesis of this text in this setting; the matter deserves a whole article of its own. But suffice it to say here that Acts 13:48 fails to establish Dan’s point. Moreover, it is worth noting that Friberg’s lexicon lists “as many as had become disposed toward eternal life” as a possible translation.[3] Similarly, distinguished grammarian Max Zerwick indicates “who had been set (in the way)” as a possible translation in Zerwick and Grosvenor’s well known A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. And the most authoritative lexicon for New Testament studies (abbreviated BDAG) does not take the verb in question to mean “appoint,” but construes it under the meaning of “to put in place.”[4] It is not surprising, then, that the distinguished biblical scholar Henry Alford argued for the rendering, “as many as were disposed,” in his well respected 4 volume work, The Greek Testament. (John Piper of all people sings Alford’s praises thus: “When I’m stumped with a . . . grammatical or syntactical or logical flow [question] in Paul, I go to Henry Alford. Henry Alford mostly answers-he . . . comes closer more consistently than any other human commentator to asking my kinds of questions.” Alford’s treatment of Acts 13:48 can be found in this volume available online.Dr. Cottrell’s exegesis:
The question is this: how can this be reconciled with the Arminian (non-Calvinist) view? The key lies in the form of the main Greek verb, tassō. The basic meaning of this verb is “to place, to order, to appoint, to ordain, to determine, to arrange in order.” As it appears in this text, the verb form is the participle tetagmenoi. It is simply assumed that this is the PASSIVE form of the verb, thus: “to be appointed, to be ordained, to be destined.” What is often forgotten is that in the Greek language, often the passive and the middle form of verbs are spelled exactly the same way. That is the case here. The word tetagmenoi can also be the MIDDLE form of the verb. Here is the main point: that is how it should be understood in Acts 13:48.
What does this verse mean, then? The middle voice of a verb in Greek is sometimes used in a reflexive sense. The idea is that the action of the verb is something performed by the subject (not by someone else upon the subject), but in such a way that the action is directed back toward the subject or the self. Understanding that the verb means “to place, to set, to arrange in a certain order or position,” we can see that the statement in 13:48 can quite validly be taken thus: “As many as arranged themselves unto (eis) eternal life believed,” or “As many as turned themselves toward eternal life believed,” or “As many as disposed themselves toward eternal life believed.”
Why should we accept this approach to the verb—i.e., as middle voice rather than passive? For two reasons. First, it agrees with the general overall teaching of Scripture, that turning toward God is a matter of free will and personal responsibility, not something unconditionally and irresistibly caused by God.
Second, this agrees with the context, where the Jews’ response to the gospel is being contrasted with that of the Gentiles. In Acts 13:13-41 Paul preached a powerful Sabbath sermon in the Jews’ synagogue at Antioch. Many of the Jews were so impressed that they asked for an encore the next Sabbath (vv. 42-43). Then on “the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord” (v. 44). This crowd obviously included many Gentiles, because “when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him” (v. 45). This provoked Paul and Barnabas to speak this judgment upon the Jews: “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles” (v. 46). This verse is important because it shows that the exclusion of the Jews from the ranks of the saved was their own choice, not the result of some predestining activity of God. The Jews specifically judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.
This is exactly the opposite of the Gentiles’ reaction, especially when Paul and Barnabas applied Isaiah 49:6 to themselves: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (v. 47). Verse 48 then describes the reaction of the Gentiles to this preaching. It was in fact just the opposite of the Jews’ reaction: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord.” Then follow the crucial words: and as many as set themselves toward eternal life believed. How did they set themselves toward eternal life? By hearing and heeding the word of God (see Rom. 10:17).
We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice. There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48.
Dr. Cottrell is a professor of Biblical Theology at Cincinnati Christian University. He has earned degrees from University of Cincinnati (B.A. - philosophy), Westminster Theological Seminary (M.Div) and Princeton Theological Seminary (Ph.D).
Upvote
0
Foghorn
Saved by grace
- Mar 8, 2010
- 1,186
- 126
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Calvinist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Well hopfully then, the gospel finds us in good disposition when we hear it!Dr. Brian Abasciano’s exegesis of Acts 13:48,
I would interpret Acts 13:48 much differently than Dan. I do not think it refers to election. A better translation of the passage is, “as many as were set in position for eternal life believed” or “as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” The word typically translated “appointed” can also be translated “to set in position” and can be used of human disposition/attitude, which fits the context of Acts 13:48 better, as it stands in contrasting parallel to the attitude of the Jews of the same episode who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, opposing Paul and rejecting the gospel (Acts 13:46). No agent of the action is identified for the passive verb, meaning it could be another agent like God that prepared the subjects for eternal life, or Paul as the preacher of the gospel, or the preaching of the gospel itself, or even the subjects of the passive verb themselves (akin to saying, “as many as were set for the test passed it”
Upvote
0
Hey Foghorn,
Good response. You may be right, but I posted it because it does offer another possibility. Perhaps I should have stuck with how I have always read it. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Act 13:48).
If I were to say, as many as were ordained to ministry believed, you would not assume that they believed as a result of being ordained to the ministry. It would simply be understood that all who had been ordained to ministry, or in this case eternal life, had believed. So, as many as were appointed to eternal life did believe they believed. It is not necessarily addressing the order, but simply the fact that they did believe. Similar examples might be:
as many as were appointed to minister the gospel believed.
as many as were elected to office campaigned.
as many as were chosen to the team tried-out.
as many as were appointed to sing auditioned.
This is how I have always understood this verse. However, I can also justify my view, if as you contend, it means they believed as a result of having been appointed / ordained to life. This can be understood through foreknowledge. I believe God pre-ordained to eternal life those He foreknew would believe. Those ordained to eternal life will believe, and He ordains them to eternal life knowing they would. The key is that He doesnt, and it doesnt, teach that He irresistibly causes them to believe.
Rom 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
As many as were predestined to glorification and eternal life believed. (Belief comes after being called and before being justified). It is a true statement that as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, however, it is also true that as many as believed were ordained to eternal life. (Both are true).
Blessings!
Good response. You may be right, but I posted it because it does offer another possibility. Perhaps I should have stuck with how I have always read it. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Act 13:48).
If I were to say, as many as were ordained to ministry believed, you would not assume that they believed as a result of being ordained to the ministry. It would simply be understood that all who had been ordained to ministry, or in this case eternal life, had believed. So, as many as were appointed to eternal life did believe they believed. It is not necessarily addressing the order, but simply the fact that they did believe. Similar examples might be:
as many as were appointed to minister the gospel believed.
as many as were elected to office campaigned.
as many as were chosen to the team tried-out.
as many as were appointed to sing auditioned.
This is how I have always understood this verse. However, I can also justify my view, if as you contend, it means they believed as a result of having been appointed / ordained to life. This can be understood through foreknowledge. I believe God pre-ordained to eternal life those He foreknew would believe. Those ordained to eternal life will believe, and He ordains them to eternal life knowing they would. The key is that He doesnt, and it doesnt, teach that He irresistibly causes them to believe.
Rom 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
As many as were predestined to glorification and eternal life believed. (Belief comes after being called and before being justified). It is a true statement that as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, however, it is also true that as many as believed were ordained to eternal life. (Both are true).
Blessings!
Upvote
0
- Jun 26, 2004
- 17,480
- 3,740
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Others
The Divine AmWay program again.
You quoted Mat. 5, Lk 6, Rom. 5 and Col. 1 in support of your position. Again, you are misleading. You have ignored other passages that would be at odds with "loving your neighbour" in the manner in which you mean. In the book of Revelation (6 - 19) we find Christ destroying millions of His enemies, David prayed to God to destroy his enemies, to cut them off completely and lets not forget Israel was commanded to utterly destroy most of their enemies at different times.
That is why I posted this:
In the Bible love is used interchangeably with mercy and forbearance and should be viewed in an Old Testament sense of the Law, being lawful to one another (Ex. 23.4, Deut. 22.1) and is a reference to being civil. The emotional kind of love that you are presuming is not expressed toward the reprobate wicked. In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not.
God does not "plead," neither does He whimper or whine. God is King and commands. That which He commands He accomplishes. Romans 1 has nothing to do with pleading but condemning all because the revelation of God is self evident truth. You misquoted the passage.
So...what causes one to differ?
Is it not grace, the unmerited favour of God or is the one who "accepts" the "offer" by generating faith spiritually better? You see, you simply cannot avoid that conclusion and since you quoted Romans 3...how is the natural mind, which is at enmity against God (Rom. 8.7) and not able to obey God, how does he go from Romans 3 to a born again believer? Grace alone. You claim that God's love is only effectual if one "receives it." In your words what causes one to differ from another is not grace, it is their ability to "receive" it and " recognizes his inferiority and is humble before the Lord." Read Romans 3 again and tell me who is able to do that humble themselves before God and obey God.
You referred John 12 and inserted John 16 to try and prove your point but you failed to deal with the "drawing of men." The AV is a great translation and I use it as my main Bible...ever notice the italics in the AV? The word men is not in the text. Neither is the word "people." So if I allow your point it doesn't prove that Christ is drawing all to salvation since "all men" is not in the text. For the sake of argument lets say this passage has nothing to do with the judgement of the word, that Christ on the cross does not represent the salvation of sinners and the condemnation of the reprobate. The word "men" is not in the text. Now, consider Christ's early words found in John 6.40 and v44 where He plainly teaches that all who are drawn to Him will be raised up with Him on the last day. If Christ draws all men He will raise all men up to salvation. The conclusion is inescapable.
You quoted me out of context. The Gospel is good news to those that believe, it means absolutely nothing to unbelievers, this is just common sense. When Christ proclaimed in the Temple, marketplaces and courtyards did the Pharisees say, "hey, that's some good news right here!" No, they plotted to kill him. The news Christ preached was deemed by them as not good.
The context of my statement is here,
Have a peek at the terrible ministry of Isaiah (6), " Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate" This is a perfect example of how preaching the Gospel can harden the hearts of the reprobate. The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.
A very shallow reading of this passage has caused you some confusion. There is no offer of salvation found in this passage, only those in proper dress were admitted and they were chosen by God. The invite is nothing more then a command to repent. The Bible teaches us about two kinds of repentance (twin has written on this before), evangelical or godly and legal or worldly. The first is a gift of God and the second is caused by fear of sin such was the repentance Judas experienced for betraying Christ. All men are commanded to repent but saving repentance is a gift of God.
All humanity needs rest from sin but not all humanity will recognize the need for Christ. Only those wounded by the Holy Spirit will acknowledge their burden, give up their false religion and idols and rest in Jesus Christ alone for the saving of their souls. What you suggest gives far too much credit to fallen, sinful man. I agree with you that Romans 3 describes humanity but I do not agree that anything good, that results in their salvation, can come from the men and women described in that passage.
Yes, it did. If you apply the finished work of Christ from Romans 5 to all of humanity, the way in which Adam's fall is applied to all of humanity, then you have to believe in Universalism.
Universalism. Unless you are denying the free grace of God and placing conditions on salvation.
...there it is, the condition on salvation! The Bible teaches we are saved by "grace through faith," the instrumentality of faith, and "that is not of yourself it is a gift of God." You are making faith the active component in your salvation when it is the work of the Holy Spirit applying the blood of Christ to a sinner through faith.
There's the condition again, man must produce faith to be saved, the Bible tells us it is God's gift to us.
That's a red herring since I already stated what I believe. Are you telling me that Christ died savingly for all men but they have to produce, from their fallen sinful selves, something that will apply the work of Christ to their souls?
A whole lot of linguistic gymnastics and nothing more. You are trying to avoid the obvious reading by reading something into the text and playing with the translation to make it work for you. You quoted Romans 8 but didn't tell us how God foreknows. I'm going to assume, based on what you have posted, that you believe God looks down the corridors of time to see who will produce faith and believe making God's choice in salvation based upon the will of man. For you Acts 13 is nothing more then God ordaining what he foresaw.
Does that sound right?
If that is the case why did Christ die for all if He foreknew who would believe?
Wouldn't the work of the cross be limited to those He foreknew?
What is the benefit of an unlimited atonement if God already knew who would believe?
Here's another way to look at; God also foreknew who WOULDNOT believe and created them anyway...foreknowing...He was creating them with no other purpose then to be destroyed in hell forever.
The Bible teaches that God decrees what will be and His will be done.
Upvote
0
- Jun 26, 2004
- 17,480
- 3,740
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Others
Don't know for how long though. I unsubscribed. But like a moth to a flame...just today seen the other posts you made.
Upvote
0
- Jun 26, 2004
- 17,480
- 3,740
- Country
- Canada
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Others
If you would like me to continue to dialogue with you please keep your responses to one post and give me time to respond. As it looks right now, you are just spamming the Calvinist Debate forum and I do not have the kind of time you do to make multiple posts on dozens of subjects.
Upvote
0
Genesis 3:11
And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?
Exodus 32:8
They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them.
Numbers 15:22
But when you unwittingly fail and do not observe all these commandments, which the LORD has spoken to Moses,
Nehemiah 9:16
But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly; They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments.
Jeremiah 11:8
Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked, each one, in the stubbornness of his evil heart; therefore I brought on them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did not.
Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Here is an offer to drink of the water He gives, in return for eternal life:
John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
Here is another offer to eat the bread from heaven in order to live forever:
John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
