Limited Provision?

[gmm4j]

God’s desire is for all Fallen wicked men to use their God-given free will to turn to Him and live.

John 3:16-18
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

God loves everyone, even his enemies, and He provided salvation for “whomever” through the Son. Notice what verses 16 and 18 say about the condition that must be met for the application of salvation. The condition for salvation is belief, not an unconditional election. If election were the basis upon which people were saved, then the elect who have not “yet” believed would not stand condemned. In the Calvinistic mindset, the foreloved who were elect and predestined from before the foundation of the world could never stand condemned, but yet Scripture says before belief they do. Belief is the condition for election, not election the condition for belief.

God pleads with people to turn to Him so they will not die.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasurein the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Again, if God were to elect unconditionally, He would have elected to save all men.

John 6:33
For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

John 12:32-33
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

John 16:8-9
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

Why would the Holy Spirit convict the unbelievers of the world, if they were not elect and unable to believe?

Acts 17:30-31
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Again, God wants all men to be saved, but He has sovereignly decided the application of His salvation is to involve the God-given freewill capacity of men to believe the gospel by faith. And, faith is not considered a work.


Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

 

[gmm4j]

Calvinists would say that the “perishing” persons of the following verses have not been elected by God, have been left to themselves, Jesus’ sacrifice was not for them in particular, they have been blinded by the god of this age, and will never be able to respond favorably to the “gospel.” Yet three times within these three verses, God’s message to them is called the truth and the gospel. When a Calvinistic view is applied, it is neither the truth nor good news for those who are perishing. Scripture time and again contradicts the third point of Calvinism.

2 Corinthians 4:2-4
On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves toevery man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that the good news of Jesus Christ is held out to and is for all people. If Calvinism were correct, then it is certainly not good news for the many whom God did not elect.

Luke 5:31-32
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Jesus came to call all sinners to repentance. This does in fact mean that He calls all sinners without distinction or exception. The call is for each and every sinner, which consists of everyone, to repent.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Here, Paul presents a very easily understood parallel. Adam’s sin resulted in condemnation for all men, and Jesus’ work of obedience on the cross brought justification and life for all men. Condemnation for all men is understood as all men without exception. Life for all men should be understood the same way. In order to receive the condemnation of Adam, you must be born of Adam. In order to receive the life of Jesus, you must be born again of the Spirit by faith. This new life has been provided for all men by Jesus’ one act of righteousness.

Isaiah 53:4-8
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows,yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

We all, every person, like sheep have gone astray. This is true and Calvinists would agree. They would say this is true of all mankind, but they would then turn around and say that it is not true that Jesus took upon Himself the iniquity of all people. I would contend that clearly and consistently all means all in each case.

Romans 8:3
God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Who is sinful man? It is all of mankind. There is no denying this. Jesus became a sin offering to condemn sin. What sin? All sin, which is in all sinful men, which is in every man born of Adam. This cannot refer to only the sin of the elect. He became sin and came in the likeness of all mankind, sinful mankind.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst.

He came to call sinners and to save sinners. Who are these sinners? All are sinners. This means that if you are a sinner, He came to save you. In the same context, Paul continues to write:

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.

And, that brings us to:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 compliment the Ezekiel 18 and Ezekiel 33 passages presented earlier, which show God’s heart in wanting each and every person to be saved. He does not want anyone to perish. Jesus is the God-man mediator bridging the sin gap between all mankind and God. He was the ransom for all men without distinction or exception.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves.

If Calvinists are correct about limited atonement, Christ could not have died for those who will enter destruction. This verse shows that Jesus paid the price even for false teachers who will be destroyed. Jesus’ work on the cross was for all men without distinction or exception. Salvation is available for all men.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John shows that Jesus’ atoning sacrifice was provided for particular sins, those who have received His forgiveness by faith, but also for sins in general, the sins of the whole world.

 

[gmm4j]

Matthew 11:28-29
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Perhaps it should be believed that only the elect are weary and burdened? No, of course not. All humanity needs rest for their souls and is invited to come to Jesus. Accept the invitation and you will become one of the elect.

With an invitation a free will decision is implied by the One sending the invitation and must be made by the one being invited. Accept the invitation and go to the wedding banquet or reject the invitation and do your own thing.

Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5 "But they paid no attention and went off-one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

As expected, Calvinistic verbiage is not found in Jesus’ parable. Calvinism teaches those who were “not willing to come” were not willing because they were not chosen. The text however, seems to indicate the exact opposite. They were not chosen because they were not willing to come. Likewise, Calvinism says those who accepted the invitation and put on the proper apparel did so because they were chosen. The text again seems to show that they were chosen because they accepted the invitation. Many are invited, but you become a “chosen one” by accepting the invite.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

Romans 16:25-27
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him- 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Luke 2:10-11
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

 

[gmm4j]

Luke 4:18-19
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

Jesus came to preach good news to those who are poor and do not have. He proclaimed freedom for those imprisoned to sin, recovery of sight for those who are spiritually blind, and release for the oppressed. Poor, imprisoned, blind, and oppressed is a description of all fallen mankind. Good news, freedom, recovery of sight, and release are available for all of fallen mankind through Christ. The year of the Lord’s favor refers to the year of Jubilee where every fifty years there was no sowing or reaping (Leviticus 25:11-12), all slaves were set free (Leviticus 25:39-54), the land went back to the original owner (Leviticus 27:16-24), and all debts were cancelled.

 

[Eddie L]

I don't know why you just don't start your own blog. As it is, you're just sort of spamming this forum.

 

[gmm4j]

I would love to have you respond. Why so few responses?

And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. (1 Thessalonians 5:14)

 

[Eddie L]

I expect its the volume of posts and the length of them. There are so many threads by one person on such narrow topics that it's a bit much to take in.

Honestly, though, you have more of the style of a blogger than a conversationalist, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[gmm4j]

Pick whichever thread, question I've raised, or statement I've made that you would like and we can try to stay on topic for awhile.

 

[gmm4j]

Verses that support limited atonement do not disprove unlimited provision. The atonement was provided for all and limited to those who believe.

 

[CalledOutOne]

It's a bit overwhelming bro. Which would you like us to address first?

 

[gmm4j]

Hi CalledOutOne,

I actually would love for you to go to the first thread that I posted under Debate a Calvinist, Steal From A Dead Man?, and deal with that one first. Thanks for asking.

Blessings!

 

[gmm4j]

In the thread, Misconceptions about Jesus,Orange County Chopper says,“One of the biggest ones being that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins. Discuss.”

Then Elderone says,

These two verses say it all:

Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Let’s discuss!

Elderone you said, “These two verses say it all:”

These verses are certainly great statements about the scope of the atonement, but they don’t say it all J.

Of course, the verses are true… Jesus’ blood was shed for many and He was offered to bear the sins of many. The question is many as opposed to what? Opposed to all? No. The point is many opposed to just for Himself, one.

Here’s a little fuller context of Hebrews 9:28:

Hebrews 9:25-28
Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Notice that the many are compared to the one sacrifice of Himself offered one time.

Here in Hebrews 2:10 it says,

In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

If your reasoning regarding “many” is correct, because it only says many sons and not all sons, this verse must mean that God doesn’t bring all sons to glory. Right? No. All sons will be brought to glory. The writer is simply stating that all the sons are many in number. Likewise,

Stating many does not mean that it is not for all. The fact is all are many and many can be all!

If I were to say, “God is sovereign over many people,” it is a true statement, but does it mean that He is not sovereign over all?


Romans 5:15-16 says,

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the MANY died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Here above, it says many died by the trespass of one. But just a couple verses earlier Paul stated:

Romans 5:12-13
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because all sinned-

So, because it only says many died in verse 15 does it mean that death really didn’t come to all men in verse 12?

Then it goes on to say,

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the MANY will be made righteous.

Here, Paul presents a very easily understood parallel. Adam’s sin resulted in condemnation for all men, and Jesus’ work of obedience on the cross brought justification and life for all men. Condemnation for all men is understood as all men without exception. Life for all men should be understood the same way. In order to receive the condemnation of Adam, you must be born of Adam. In order to receive the life of Jesus, you must be born again of the Spirit by faith. This new life has been provided for all men by Jesus’ one act of righteousness.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.


Romans 8:3
God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Who is sinful man? It is all of mankind. There is no denying this. Jesus became a sin offering to condemn sin. What sin? All sin, which is in all sinful men, which is in every man born of Adam. This cannot refer to only the sin of the elect. He became sin and came in the likeness of all mankind, sinful mankind.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves.

If you are correct about limited atonement, Christ could not have died for those who will enter destruction. This verse shows that Jesus paid the price even for false teachers who will be destroyed. Jesus’ work on the cross was for all men without distinction or exception. Salvation is available for all men.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John shows that Jesus’ atoning sacrifice was provided for particular sins, those who have received His forgiveness by faith, but also for sins in general, the sins of the whole world.


Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

 

[AMR]

I don't know why you just don't start your own blog. As it is, you're just sort of spamming this forum.

Indeed. The intent of this thread is to actually have some pre-agreement with another person, a Calvinist, and then set out to debate. As it is, this fellow is just fishing and hoping someone will take the bait. Sigh.

AMR

 

[gmm4j]

Hi ARM,

Sorry, nowhere did I read that the intent of "Debate with a Calvinist" was to have a pre-agreement with another Calvinist person. Yes, although I don't think it is something to sigh over, you are right, I have hoped that someone would "take the bait" so the very important doctrines of salvation might be discussed. I have no problem conceding to the truth where I err, and neither should any Christian. All the questions I've asked and the Scripture I've presented come from my own honest inquiry in my search for the truth, and I'm still seeking, learning, and growing in Him. If you or others have adequate Scriptural responses to the information I've presented I may be a Calvinist tomorrow

And ARM, I have read a good many of your posts on your site and other sites and although I currently disagree with your perspective on TULIP, I greatly appreciate your heart for the Lord.

Blessings and have a good night.

 

[gmm4j]

Twin1954 you said,

Remember which room you are in. Please confine yourself to the debate a Calvinist room if you want to argue your appeals to emotion.

I’ll be good. This is my response from Misconceptions of Jesus.

Now this once, for the sake of those who read this, I will answer your supposed argument.
So you suppose that the world isn't filled with sinners?

No, the world is full of sinners.


And you supose that God lied when He says that He hates all workers of iniquity?

No, God doesn’t lie. They are hated because they have rejected His love / salvation. In fact, I believe it is because He has to hate (justice) the sinful creation He loves so much; He provided the Way in Christ for all fallen men to be redeemed.

You deny the justice of God and destroy His righteousness when you wrest the Scriptures to fit your idea of God.

I uphold the justice of God and his righteousness by faith.

We have every reason to believe that that young man did come to faith in Christ because the Scriptures say that Jesus loved him. I have heard it conjectured that the young man was Saul who later became Paul. It certainly is reasonable. The Scriptures do not say that the young man was damned but that he went away sorrowful.

You don’t have every reason to believe that the young man came to faith, as you state it is only conjecture.

God tells us to love our enemies because we have no right or authority to do any thing else. We are ourselves just like our enemies. For us to love them is nothing less than the right thing to do. But for God to love His enemies is something altogether different. He is not obligated to love us. But of course in order to make your supposed love to seem more than it is you leave out that part. So if you love your enemies as God loves His elect then have you given the very best and most precious thing you have, your own life, in order to bring good to them? That is what God did. If you don't do the same thing you aren't loving but just putting on a show.

Wow. You just argued against the whole stated purpose of Jesus telling us to love our enemies, to be like Him.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke’s account… Luke 6:32-36
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

It seems to be consistent with Calvinistic thought Jesus would have commanded us to love only some of our enemies and not others, or some not quite so much as others. We also would have been told to do good only to some people while excluding others and we definitely would have been told to forgive and be merciful to only a select few. This, of course, is not what we are told to do because it is not what God does.

God wants us to be like Him and has commanded us how to do so. Therefore, how God has commanded us to behave toward others reveals the extent of His own love and forgiveness. God is not holding us to a higher standard than Himself. Impossible.



Oh, the misconceptions of unenlightened Christians
You said,
This may shock you but they aren't misguided or unenlightened but dead.

If they are genuine Christians, they are not dead.

Then in your next response to JustAsIam you said,

The death of Christ was sufficient and efficient to accomplish that which God intended which was the everlasting salvation of His chosen people.

I agree. His death was sufficient for all and efficient for all those He intended it for. He intended it for those who would receive it by faith. These are His chosen people.

Blessings!

 

[twin1954]

Twin1954 you said,

Remember which room you are in. Please confine yourself to the debate a Calvinist room if you want to argue your appeals to emotion.

I’ll be good. This is my response from Misconceptions of Jesus.

Now this once, for the sake of those who read this, I will answer your supposed argument.
So you suppose that the world isn't filled with sinners? No, the world is full of sinners.

And you supose that God lied when He says that He hates all workers of iniquity? No, God doesn’t lie. They are hated because they have rejected His love / salvation. In fact, I believe it is because He has to hate (justice) the sinful creation He loves so much; He provided the Way in Christ for all fallen men to be redeemed.


You deny the justice of God and destroy His righteousness when you wrest the Scriptures to fit your idea of God. I uphold the justice of God and his righteousness by faith.
We have every reason to believe that that young man did come to faith in Christ because the Scriptures say that Jesus loved him. I have heard it conjectured that the young man was Saul who later became Paul. It certainly is reasonable. The Scriptures do not say that the young man was damned but that he went away sorrowful. You don’t have every reason to believe that the young man came to faith, as you state it is only conjecture.
God tells us to love our enemies because we have no right or authority to do any thing else. We are ourselves just like our enemies. For us to love them is nothing less than the right thing to do. But for God to love His enemies is something altogether different. He is not obligated to love us. But of course in order to make your supposed love to seem more than it is you leave out that part. So if you love your enemies as God loves His elect then have you given the very best and most precious thing you have, your own life, in order to bring good to them? That is what God did. If you don't do the same thing you aren't loving but just putting on a show.
Wow. You just argued against the whole stated purpose of Jesus telling us to love our enemies, to be like Him.
Matthew 5:43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke’s account… Luke 6:32-36
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

It seems to be consistent with Calvinistic thought Jesus would have commanded us to love only some of our enemies and not others, or some not quite so much as others. We also would have been told to do good only to some people while excluding others and we definitely would have been told to forgive and be merciful to only a select few. This, of course, is not what we are told to do because it is not what God does.

God wants us to be like Him and has commanded us how to do so. Therefore, how God has commanded us to behave toward others reveals the extent of His own love and forgiveness. God is not holding us to a higher standard than Himself. Impossible.



Oh, the misconceptions of unenlightened Christians

This may shock you but they aren't misguided or unenlightened but dead.

If they are genuine Christians, they are not dead.

Then in your next response to JustAsIam you said,

The death of Christ was sufficient and efficient to accomplish that which God intended which was the everlasting salvation of His chosen people.

I agree. His death was sufficient for all and efficient for all those He intended it for. He intended it for those who would receive it by faith. These are His chosen people.

Blessings!

I told you that I would only give an answer once. I have no need to show you or anyone else how intelligent I am or not. Can I answer you? Sure I can. Will I answer you? No I will not. If I thought you were seeking to actually learn from me then I would but I don't believe that is the case. I suspect that a debate with you will only acomplish the furthering of pride in both of us.

It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are a fool than to open it and prove them right. Mark Twain?

 

[gmm4j]

Jesus’ provision was sufficient and available for everyone, but only effective (limited) to those who believe / receive it by faith. This is good news to everyone.

 

[JM]

John 3:16-18
John 6:33
John 16:8-9

The meaning of world is determined by the context and use. A good example if found in the second chapter of Luke where we read about a decree from Augustus for the world to be taxed. Scripture is not suggesting that Augustus attempted to tax the Chinese or North American Natives so in this context we see the word world being used as hyperbole. A .W. Pink covers the different uses of the word kosmos here: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/kosmos.htm

God loves everyone, even his enemies

God does not love his enemies and this statement is misleading. In the Bible love is used interchangeably with mercy and forbearance and should be viewed in an Old Testament sense of the Law, being lawful to one another (Ex. 23.4, Deut. 22.1) and is a reference to being civil. The emotional kind of love that you are presuming is not expressed toward the reprobate wicked. In Mat. 23 Christ calls the false religious teachers serpents and vipers. Would they say God loves them? Absolutely not.

The condition for salvation is belief, not an unconditional election.

The condition for salvation is God's mercy toward a sinner. It isn't a Divine AmWay program that God sets up in advance and all you have to do is make it work. Romans 9.6

God pleads with people to turn to Him so they will not die.

The passages from Ezekiel are references to physical distress, plague and pestilence. You are claiming too much when you reference them in support of your doctrine.

Besides, God does not "plead" to save souls. This is a common rationalistic approach to reading scripture and it fraught with difficultly. Did God "offer" or "plead" to every single person in the world who ever lived? No. If God loves everyone and everyone is not saved His love is ineffectual and meaningless. If God does plead to save everyone, as you seem to be saying, that means the one who believes is spiritually superior to the one that does not. Scripture tells us what causes one to differ and it has nothing to do with spiritual superiority. (1 Cor. 4.7, Rom. 9.16)

Found online:
Psalm 7:11 God is angry with the wicked every day
Psalm 11:5 God hates the violent one
Genesis 6:5-7 God's determination to destroy the wicked
Genesis 19:13 God's destruction of the wicked is on account of their wickedness
Deuteronomy 31:17 God's anger is kindled against the evil doer because he is wicked
1 Samuel 3:14 Eli's house shall not be cleansed with sacrifice or offering forever
Psalm 81:11-12 God gives people up to walk in their own counsel - hardening
Isaiah 6:9 Hearing without understanding and seeing without perceiving
Isaiah 6:10 Judicial hardening of non-responsive
Isaiah 29:9-12 Lord has closed the eye of those he will punish
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver is rejected - so these are rejected by God.
Jeremiah 7:16 Do not pray for the reprobate
Hosea 5:6 The iniquity of the people is such that God has withdrawn from them
Matthew 13:14-15 Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled in not understanding God's kingdom
Mark 3:29 Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is never forgiven
John 10:26 They believed not because they were not of Christ's sheep
John 17:12 The son of perdition was lost in order to fulfil Scripture
Romans 9:21-22 some vessels are fitted for destruction by the potter
Romans 11:7 the rest were blinded (literally hardened)
2 Thessalonians 2:11 God will send strong delusion, causing the wicked to believe a lie, so that they might be damned.
Jude 4 men ordained to condemnation
Isaiah 19:14 The Lord led Egypt astray
Exodus 9:16 Purpose of Pharaoh being raised up
Proverbs 16:4 God created the wicked for the day of evil
Luke 8:10 parables spoken so that some will not see and thus be hardened
Psalm 28:5 God will destroy those who refuse to understand his word

John 12:32-33

The passage is about drawing all men to judgement (v.31), not salvation...look it up.

Why would the Holy Spirit convict the unbelievers of the world, if they were not elect and unable to believe?

Judas was convicted of his sin in betraying Jesus...was he saved? Nope. (John 17.12, also note, he was lost on purpose...to fulfill scripture) twin has explained this before so I'll quote him, "Godly sorrow is that sorrow that drives you to Christ. It is focused on God and our affront to Him. It causes us to fall at His feet begging mercy because we have no other hope but in His sovereign mercy.

Worldly sorrow is the sorrow of religion. It is focused on me and drives me to look to myself. It lays guilt on me and can never purge the conscience. It brings death because it looks to me.

Psalm 51 is an example of godly sorrow. David had just killed Urriah in order to steal his wife and the prophet Nathan, as the mouth of God, called him out on it. David then wrote Psalm 51. Jer. 31:18,19 is another example of godly sorrow. Israel’s history is an example of worldly sorrow." end quote

Acts 17:30-31

God told Lazarus to raise from the dead. Did he have the ability or power within himself to get up from the grave? You need to check your presuppositions.

Again, God wants all men to be saved

You keep repeating the above idea in different ways as if repeating it makes it more biblical or something. I reject it and ask if God wants all to be saved and all are not saved what do His desires have to do with the salvation of souls? The only answer you can give is nothing! God's desire to save has nothing to do with salvation since salvation is now out of His hands. The idol of free will religion is man centred...can't you see this?

Romans 3:22

Begs the question. Who are those who believe? And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48)

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that the good news of Jesus Christ is held out to and is for all people. If Calvinism were correct, then it is certainly

not good news for the many whom God did not elect.

and

2 Corinthians 4:2-4

2 Cor. 4 is an excellent example of how people are "veiled" from the Gospel. The proclamation is just that, the preaching of a truth and not an "offer" of salvation as some teach and believe. Have a peek at the terrible ministry of Isaiah (6), " Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate" This is a perfect example of how preaching the Gospel can harden the hearts of the reprobate. The Gospel is good news to those that believe...not to everyone.

Luke 5:31-32

Nothing more then filler. You are running out of ideas and just quoting scripture to fill out your posts.

Romans 5:18

I would advise you to avoid the anti-calvinist sites. This is a good example of you googling up some references to argue with Calvinists. Romans 5.18 is about the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to those who belong to Him. If, as you suggest, Christ's righteousness is imputed to all then all are saved...period. You would have to deny the biblical teaching of hell if you use 5.18 in this manner. If Adam's sin caused the fall of all men then the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all men and all are saved.

Isaiah 53:4-8

The "we" is Israel...you know, God's covenant people? God is speaking to His people and not to every single person who ever lived on the planet.

Romans 8:3

Ok, I'm going to stop here, you are rambling. The above passage teaches that what Christ did on the cross was effectual.

Your posts are lacking coherence in argumentation. If you want to post a few scriptures and then discuss them, lets...but this kind of drive by posting lacks continuity and is motivated by emotion and not scripture.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM,

Thanks for engaging me. I am just discovering your post and I have a busy day, but I will start breaking down your reply as soon as possible.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey JM,

Thanks again for your response. Here is a quick reply to start off… You said,

John 3:16-18
John 6:33
John 16:8-9

The meaning of world is determined by the context and use. A good example if found in the second chapter of Luke where we read about a decree from Augustus for the world to be taxed. Scripture is not suggesting that Augustus attempted to tax the Chinese or North American Natives so in this context we see the word world being used as hyperbole. A .W. Pink covers the different uses of the word kosmos here: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/kosmos.htm

You are correct in saying the meaning of world is determined by the context. I’m familiar with the differences, but will check out the link when I have time. Thanks.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

What world do you suppose Jesus was sent into? Do you believe the meaning is that He was sent only into the Elect’s world? Did He only come into the world of the foreknown elect? No. It is obvious that it means He was sent into the world as a whole, at large. He wasn’t sent to Jupiter. He wasn’t sent just for the first century Palestinian world. He was sent into the world, in general. And of course, verse 17 is on the heels of verse 16, “God so loved the world.” I’m guessing you would say the “elect” of the world, but this is not the context or what is meant.

You also list John 16:8-9 that I had used, as an example of needing to determine the meaning of “world” based on its context. Let’s look:

John 16:7-11

But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Is satan the prince of only the world of the elect? The context is that the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world / everyone of their sin of unbelief in the Son. Of course it doesn’t say convict only the elect of the world, just as the devil is not just the prince of the elect of the world.

Then the last verse you cite is John 6:33, For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." If the Holy Spirit intended for the text to mean only the elect of the world, I think He could have inspired John to write, “gives life to the elect,” or “gives life to the elect of the world,” but nope. He gives life to the world! His intent is that it (His Life) is given and available to the world, and applied to those who receive it by faith. Jesus (Jehovah is salvation) has come into our world, for everyone of our world that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.