Lighting a fire on Shabbat

[sevengreenbeans]

I understand where you're getting this. Counter-missionaries tend to use the fact that there is no sacrifice mentioned for intentional sin as a reference to the claimed all-atoning sacrifice of Jesus. It's not really true. There is sacrificial atonement for intentional sin. However, the person who sins intentionally may be forgiven by true repentance and prayer. That has always been the case.

As we see in the case of David with Bathsheba, he prayed for days and repented before God. He was surely forgiven, though the child was not allowed to live. Since the sin involved intention, intention is also key in the plea for forgiveness; hence, the prayer and repentance. Sacrifice was for sins that you did not intend, but that doesn't mean that intentional sins were beyond forgiveness. God is said to be full of mercy and will forgive those who turn to him with a broken and contrite spirit.

Yonah, I do believe you misunderstand where I'm coming from.

If a person has true repentance, the true meaning of teshuva, then there is no intentional sin committed in that scenario.

Sinning with intent means with intent. No going back. No remorse.

A broken and contrite spirit means circumcision of the heart... which goes hand in hand with teshuva, thus unintentional.

Sinning with intent raises oneself above the Torah in arrogance... in the face of YHWH.

Unintentional sin is coupled with submission and remorse... an attitude of restitution.

 

[yonah_mishael]

For this cause there will be no peace in the middle east, Israel is always breaking peace agreements.

And here is one of the fallacious statements I've ever seen on this forum. Thanks for that.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

This was an act of Rebellion, and a deed of expressing contempt to YHVH's Command.

I completely agree with the above statement.

 

[Lulav]

And here is one of the fallacious statements I've ever seen on this forum. Thanks for that.

consider the source.

 

[danny ski]

Yonah, I do believe you misunderstand where I'm coming from.

If a person has true repentance, the true meaning of teshuva, then there is no intentional sin committed in that scenario.

Sinning with intent means with intent. No going back. No remorse.

A broken and contrite spirit means circumcision of the heart... which goes hand in hand with teshuva, thus unintentional.

Sinning with intent raises oneself above the Torah in arrogance... in the face of YHWH.

Unintentional sin is coupled with submission and remorse... an attitude of restitution.

What is it that you're trying to say? Are you trying to say that there's no remedy for intentional sins? Can you clarify in a couple sentences?

 

[mercy1061]

And here is one of the fallacious statements I've ever seen on this forum. Thanks for that.

Israel was commanded to completely wipe out the Canaanites, instead they intermarried with them, thus establishing an illegal peace agreement. David then broke the peace agreement to disannul this illegal union.

 

[mercy1061]

consider the source.

Uriah the Hittite should have never married Bethsheba. Of course, they had no descendants, which was a clear sign their illegal union was not blessed.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Israel was commanded to completely wipe out the Canaanites, instead they intermarried with them, thus establishing an illegal peace agreement. David then broke the peace agreement to disannul this illegal union.

What does this have to do with the future of the peace process in modern Israel?

 

[BukiRob]

Lulav is right here, David did not know he committed a sin, actually David broke a peace agreement between the Hittites and Israel. A common practice for enemies to intermarry to avoid war or complete irradication of a nation. The part of Torah that most Christians ignore, is that Uriahs marriage to Bethsheba was illegal, forbidden, disannulled by Abraham. The tribe of Judah commonly married the Cannanites, this case was no different, David really did not commit adultery, he broke a peace agreement which actually worse. For this cause there will be no peace in the middle east, Israel is always breaking peace agreements.

When a man has sexual relations with another man's wife IT IS ADULTERY. David knew Bathsheba was married. If in fact David did believe he had done anything wrong then why did he attempt to hide his actions? Why would David send for Uriah?

Not only did David commit Adultery but Murder also. He did ALL of this to hide his sin. 2 Samuel 11:27 But the thing that David had done was evil in the sight of the Lord.

2 Samuel 12: 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’

This is the judgment of Adonai and he says that David took another man's wife to be his wife... that sir is Adultery

 

[sevengreenbeans]

What is it that you're trying to say? Are you trying to say that there's no remedy for intentional sins? Can you clarify in a couple sentences?

The remedy is personal judgment. The penalty is on the head of that individual and cannot be transferred to the head of a sacrificial offering. (B'midbar)

 

[mercy1061]

When a man has sexual relations with another man's wife IT IS ADULTERY. David knew Bathsheba was married. If in fact David did believe he had done anything wrong then why did he attempt to hide his actions? Why would David send for Uriah?

Not only did David commit Adultery but Murder also. He did ALL of this to hide his sin. 2 Samuel 11:27 But the thing that David had done was evil in the sight of the Lord.

2 Samuel 12: 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’

This is the judgment of Adonai and he says that David took another man's wife to be his wife... that sir is Adultery

David used the sword therefore his house will be judged by the sword. The sword represents making war with the Hittites, after a peace agreement was established. Solomon honored his peace agreements, established through intermarriage, thus there was peace in the days of Solomon. How did David despise the word of Adonai? Your arguments sound like a modern day Christian preacher, who do not practice Torah. They call David a murderer, adulterer....
David despised Adonai, David despised the word of Adonai, this was his sin, clearly written in the text.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Uriahs marriage to Bethsheba was illegal, forbidden, disannulled by Abraham.

How do we know that Uriah wasn't considered a "stranger sojourning with them"?
He was fighting in David's army.
Why does YHWH defend Uriah the Hittite against the actions of David?
Abraham's own household comprised of "foreigners", who sojourned with him and were circumcised, correct?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

David despised Adonai, David despised the word of Adonai, this was his sin, clearly written in the text.

How does one show that he despises YHWH?
Despising the word of YHWH is despising the Torah.
How did David despise the Torah?
The answers to those questions are indeed recorded in the text.

 

[mercy1061]

How do we know that Uriah wasn't considered a "stranger sojourning with them"?
He was fighting in David's army.
Why does YHWH defend Uriah the Hittite against the actions of David?
Abraham's own household comprised of "foreigners", who sojourned with him and were circumcised, correct?

What kind of man would turn against his own people? Canaan was cursed in the days of Noah, Abraham forbid his descendants from marrying them. However Judah married them, David born from the tribe of Judah used Uriah to help Israel defeat the Hittites, Uriah was probably an informant or spie who understood the Hittite military camp.

 

[BukiRob]

David used the sword therefore his house will be judged by the sword. The sword represents making war with the Hittites, after a peace agreement was established. Solomon honored his peace agreements, established through intermarriage, thus there was peace in the days of Solomon. How did David despise the word of Adonai? Your arguments sound like a modern day Christian preacher, who do not practice Torah. They call David a murderer, adulterer....
David despised Adonai, David despised the word of Adonai, this was his sin, clearly written in the text.

The text speaks for itself. You sure seem to be happy to label people you do not know at all. Apparently, you can not even read the simplest of words spoken to David by G-d though his prophet Nathan.

 

[mercy1061]

The text speaks for itself. You sure seem to be happy to label people you do not know at all. Apparently, you can not even read the simplest of words spoken to David by G-d though his prophet Nathan.

I am not labeling you, I just have heard that argument presented before by those that do not keep Torah, they label David an adulterer or murderer without knowledge pertaining to Torah kingdom law. Adultery is a sin committed against another man, but the this ancient text is clear, David's sin is against the word of Adonai, David's sin is against Adonai.

 

[mercy1061]

How does one show that he despises YHWH?
Despising the word of YHWH is despising the Torah.
How did David despise the Torah?
The answers to those questions are indeed recorded in the text.

David decided to execute the word of Adonai when it was most convenient or advantageous for him. David did the same thing that Levi and Simeon did, concerning Dina, violated a peace agreement.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Adultery is a sin committed against another man, but the this ancient text is clear, David's sin is against the word of Adonai, David's sin is against Adonai.

Adultery is a form of Idolatry. It is not only a sin against man.

 

[mercy1061]

Adultery is a form of Idolatry. It is not only a sin against man.

I am just observing what the text explicitly says, not what is not written.

 

[BukiRob]

I am not labeling you, I just have heard that argument presented before by those that do not keep Torah, they label David an adulterer or murderer without knowledge pertaining to Torah kingdom law. Adultery is a sin committed against another man, but the this ancient text is clear, David's sin is against the word of Adonai, David's sin is against Adonai.

That is NOT what scripture says.... Sorry, but I side with what the text actually says