Lighting a fire on Shabbat

[BukiRob]

Numbers 15:28-31 "And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that sins ignorantly, when he sins unintentionally, before the L-RD, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven, both he that is home-born among the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourns among them: you shall have one law for him that does anything unintentionally. But the soul that sins arrogantly, whether he be home-born or a stranger, the same blasphemes the L-RD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the L-RD, and has broken His commandment; that soul shall utterly be cut off, his iniquity shall be upon him."

Torah states there is no sacrifice for intentional sin... violating commandments arrogantly and on purpose... pre-meditated. There is only atonement for unintentional sin. It's all in the words of the Torah, and the Torah has not been done away with, correct? Not any part of it?

That's why the man found gathering on the Sabbath was cut off. He had no circumcision of the heart. He was arrogant, prideful, and without remorse.

Then clearly you conclude that David was cut off for his sin with Bathsheba

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Then clearly you conclude that David was cut off for his sin with Bathsheba

The way it is written in the Torah, our own blood is required for our own intentional sin. The blood of a sacrifice cannot stand in our place.

 

[aniello]

The way it is written in the Torah, our own blood is required for our own intentional sin. The blood of a sacrifice cannot stand in our place.

So then, if Moses' and David's blood was not shed what is now their status before the L-rd? Toast?

 

[BukiRob]

The way it is written in the Torah, our own blood is required for our own intentional sin. The blood of a sacrifice cannot stand in our place.

Clearly then, your own blood is required for your intentional sin...

 

[Truthfrees]

If it is good for the goose then it is good for the gander. But obviously, it is not working for the goose so they hire a gander to do it... Now how is that obedient. That is halacha that voids the Law. Unless the interpretation of the Law is too extreme. Hence my position is that, "kindling" is starting where the most work is performed. Throwing another stick on is not a whole lot of effort. Everyone will have to individually decide on how to keep the Shabbat a place for praising Him for His blessings and not burdened with traditions which make it grievous..

Excellent link. Thanks.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/960077/jewish/Heating-a-Home-on-Shabbat.htm

Though ordinarily it is not permitted to ask a non-Jew to violate the Shabbat for us, there are a few exceptions to this rule. One of them is an instance where a person is ill. If the illness is life-threatening, then there's no need to ask a non-Jew to do the job, it is then the responsibility and privilege for a Jew to violate the laws of Shabbat in order to tend to the needs of the ill person. If, however, the illness is not life-threatening, then one may ask a non-Jew to perform the task we are forbidden to do.

Our Sages tell us that "all are considered ill with regards to the cold." This means that on a truly cold day, a lack of heat puts everyone, even those robustly healthy, in danger of falling ill. As such, it is permitted to avail oneself of a non-Jew's services in order to heat a home on a cold winter day. (If it is only mildly cold, it is only permissible to ask a non-Jew to put on the heat if there are children present who are suffering discomfort due to the low temperature.)

Thus if someone's electric, gas or oil heater needs to be kindled on a winter Shabbat – whether because it went out, or because it suddenly became very cold, or the like – it is perfectly permissible to recruit a non-Jew to turn on the thermostat.

Now, while your situation – a wood burning oven – may be an anomaly in today's day and age, it was the norm before the twentieth century. As such, it is discussed in the Code of Jewish Law—which rules that one may ask a non-Jew to load the wood.1

However, in today's day and age, when conventional heating systems – that can be set in advance to operate throughout Shabbat – are readily available, it is incumbent upon an individual, if at all possible, to obtain such a system, so as not to put himself in the position where he will have no choice but to avail himself of a non-Jew's services.

I hope this has helped!

Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov

 

[aniello]

Originally Posted by sevengreenbeans

The way it is written in the Torah, our own blood is required for our own intentional sin. The blood of a sacrifice cannot stand in our place.
​

So then, if Moses' and David's blood was not shed what is now their status before the L-rd? Toast?

Reiteration of my question above.

 

[Lulav]

hmmm was David's sin with Bathsheba intentional? Manasseh’s sin, or the sin of the prodigal son? Were these not all deliberate sins? And how about Moses’ sin of striking the rock when God said to speak to it, or Adam’s sin in taking of the fruit in the garden, or Judah’s sin in having sex with a person he thought was a prostitute, or Samson’s sin in seeking to marry a Philistine, or Jacob’s sin in lying to his father, or Peter’s sin in denying Christ? And what about those of us who have sinned deliberately? Does the “our sins” of 1 John 1:9 exclude intentional sins? Is there no hope for murderers to repent, or liars, or covetous people, or adulterers?

Much, if not MOST sin, is done intentionally.... to say that there is no forgiveness for intentional sin is to say that 100% of humanity is doomed. Not one of us INCLUDING YOU has lived a life free from intentional sin

I hate to be pedantic but we must understand what sin is first. It is defined in the Bible as basically crossing the line and the one who draws the line is G-d. It is a transgression. Think about when Moses was called up to the mountain but before he went the L-RD told him to set up twelve pillars and tell the children of Israel they were not to go past them onto the mountain. If they did they would be transgressing, or as Yeshua put it trespassing. (Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us).

Now if the L-RD had not drawn a line or given a commandment regarding a certain thing then one cannot by later definition or setting up of the line be considered to have sinned.

Let's start with Moses. This is a bit complicated because the L-RD did actually tell Moses to strike the rock. The problem here was when he did it. He was not told that if he did it any other time that it would be sinning but when it came time to go into the promised land the L-RD told him that he would not be allowed to cross over because of striking the rock.

Adam's sin was punished by losing immortality.I don't think this was an intentional thing to go against G-d, it was a matter of who to listen to at the time he just chose the wrong two to listen to.

Judah was not married at the time, neither was Tamar, she was not a prostitute and there was no law against what he did. However at the time what is called today the Leverate marriage was apparently an ancient custom and he 'sinned' against that custom. Yeshua even debates with the Sadducees about this law.

Jacob- lying to his father, in obedience to his mother. The Torah wasn't given yet, but Jacob was being obedient (honoring) to his mother. She was the one who knew by her conversation with the L-RD himself that it was to be Jacob who should have the blessing, not Esau. Even in the womb Esau sought to kill Jacob, that 'war' is still going on today.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Why do we look so much to the Orthodox for halakah? There are other Jewish sects that are less strict.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Why do we look so much to the Orthodox for halakah? There are other Jewish sects that are less strict.

There is only one other that follows Halakah, which would be the Conservative.

There is not a lot out there compared to what has been amassed over the last few thousand years and 80% of the time, they go with the Orthodox opinion instead of reinventing the wheel.

Committee on Jewish Law and Standards | The Rabbinical Assembly

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Originally Posted by sevengreenbeans

The way it is written in the Torah, our own blood is required for our own intentional sin. The blood of a sacrifice cannot stand in our place.
​

Reiteration of my question above.

It is written in the Torah. Not my words.

Intentional sin is arrogant, haughty, no remorse, when folks would say they'd do it all again if given the chance. Premeditated. Prideful. With a "high hand".

Unintentional sin is realizing the wrong (or potential wrong) committed inadvertently, and feeling remorseful, regretful, and seeking to make things right. This is circumcision of the heart, which is required in order to bring any sacrifice.

There is a difference.

Any sin committed with intent... there is no recourse, except judgment on that soul. No blood can substitute for the offender. And, yes, sin is defined throughout Torah. It matters whether commandments are broken willfully, or ignorantly.

This is the view of our modern judicial system, as well.
Do we give the serial killer community service or probation? Or is it the death penalty? Perhaps a life sentence?

 

[yonah_mishael]

The context for the man found gathering wood on Shabbat is unintentional sin vs. intentional sin. There is no recourse for intentional sin. That soul is cut off and his sin is upon him. There is, however, atonement for unintentional sin.

I understand where you're getting this. Counter-missionaries tend to use the fact that there is no sacrifice mentioned for intentional sin as a reference to the claimed all-atoning sacrifice of Jesus. It's not really true. There is sacrificial atonement for intentional sin. However, the person who sins intentionally may be forgiven by true repentance and prayer. That has always been the case.

As we see in the case of David with Bathsheba, he prayed for days and repented before God. He was surely forgiven, though the child was not allowed to live. Since the sin involved intention, intention is also key in the plea for forgiveness; hence, the prayer and repentance. Sacrifice was for sins that you did not intend, but that doesn't mean that intentional sins were beyond forgiveness. God is said to be full of mercy and will forgive those who turn to him with a broken and contrite spirit.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Let me remind you all that the man executed in the wilderness was not executed for lighting a fire, but instead for gathering wood for a fire.

Indeed. This is where I would derive the concept of muktseh (מוקצ&#1492. That is, it is not only forbidden to write on Shabbat, but even to hold a pen. It's not only forbidden to build a fire, but also to handle kindling wood. It is not only forbidden to build a table, but also to hold a hammer. There are tools for doing work, and handling these tools on Shabbat is also forbidden. That is the entire concept of muktseh.

 

[BukiRob]

I hate to be pedantic but we must understand what sin is first. It is defined in the Bible as basically crossing the line and the one who draws the line is G-d. It is a transgression. Think about when Moses was called up to the mountain but before he went the L-RD told him to set up twelve pillars and tell the children of Israel they were not to go past them onto the mountain. If they did they would be transgressing, or as Yeshua put it trespassing. (Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us).

Now if the L-RD had not drawn a line or given a commandment regarding a certain thing then one cannot by later definition or setting up of the line be considered to have sinned.

Let's start with Moses. This is a bit complicated because the L-RD did actually tell Moses to strike the rock. The problem here was when he did it. He was not told that if he did it any other time that it would be sinning but when it came time to go into the promised land the L-RD told him that he would not be allowed to cross over because of striking the rock.

Adam's sin was punished by losing immortality.I don't think this was an intentional thing to go against G-d, it was a matter of who to listen to at the time he just chose the wrong two to listen to.

Judah was not married at the time, neither was Tamar, she was not a prostitute and there was no law against what he did. However at the time what is called today the Leverate marriage was apparently an ancient custom and he 'sinned' against that custom. Yeshua even debates with the Sadducees about this law.

Jacob- lying to his father, in obedience to his mother. The Torah wasn't given yet, but Jacob was being obedient (honoring) to his mother. She was the one who knew by her conversation with the L-RD himself that it was to be Jacob who should have the blessing, not Esau. Even in the womb Esau sought to kill Jacob, that 'war' is still going on today.

David INTENTIONALLY engaged in adultery. He knew Bathsheba was married and took her anyway. He didn't accidentally sleep with her. His sin was an overt act of intent

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Indeed. This is where I would derive the concept of muktseh (מוקצ&#1492. That is, it is not only forbidden to write on Shabbat, but even to hold a pen. It's not only forbidden to build a fire, but also to handle kindling wood. It is not only forbidden to build a table, but also to hold a hammer. There are tools for doing work, and handling these tools on Shabbat is also forbidden. That is the entire concept of muktseh.

Don't get too carried away. We don't know whether he was gathering "kindling" or stock-piling while the "suckers" were being obedient.

 

[Lulav]

David INTENTIONALLY engaged in adultery. He knew Bathsheba was married and took her anyway. He didn't accidentally sleep with her. His sin was an overt act of intent

Please re-read my post, no where in there did I mention David. I did not because I was showing you that you can't lump all these men together.

But if you want to talk about David (and I have to say it really irks me that many Gentiles (Christians) like to bring up this about David, wither intentionally or not it is along the lines of other anti-semetic rhetoric) then let's.

If you read 2nd Samuel you will see that David did not realize his sin, else why would Nathan have to tell him that little story?

1 The L-RD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor.
2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle,
3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the L-RD lives, the man who did this deserves to die!
6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7-12 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the L-RD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
Why did you despise the word of the L-RD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites.
Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'


"This is what the L-RD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "


13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the L-RD." Nathan replied, "The L-RD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.
14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the L-RD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."


The L-RD took away his sin, but he paid dearly his whole life for it. Once he realized he had sinned he repented but his little lambs lamb died because of it.

 

[BukiRob]

Please re-read my post, no where in there did I mention David. I did not because I was showing you that you can't lump all these men together.

But if you want to talk about David (and I have to say it really irks me that many Gentiles (Christians) like to bring up this about David, wither intentionally or not it is along the lines of other anti-semetic rhetoric) then let's.

If you read 2nd Samuel you will see that David did not realize his sin, else why would Nathan have to tell him that little story?

1 The L-RD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor.
2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle,
3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the L-RD lives, the man who did this deserves to die!
6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7-12 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the L-RD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
Why did you despise the word of the L-RD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites.
Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'


"This is what the L-RD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "


13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the L-RD." Nathan replied, "The L-RD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.
14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the L-RD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."


The L-RD took away his sin, but he paid dearly his whole life for it. Once he realized he had sinned he repented but his little lambs lamb died because of it.

2 Samuel
11 In the spring, when the kings normally went out to war, David sent out Joab, his servants, and all the Israelites. They destroyed the Ammonites and attacked the city of Rabbah. But David stayed in Jerusalem. 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof[a] of his palace. While he was on the roof, he saw a woman bathing. She was very beautiful. 3 So David sent his servants to find out who she was. A servant answered, “That woman is Bathsheba daughter of Eliam. She is the wife of Uriah the Hittite.”


In other words, David KNEW she was married because his servant told him.... He knowingly committed adultery.

As for your nonsense about anti-Semitic I take GREAT offense to that

 

[yonah_mishael]

Don't get too carried away. We don't know whether he was gathering "kindling" or stock-piling while the "suckers" were being obedient.

Do you think he was gathering it to just put it in a pile? He was gathering wood... surely the intention was to build a fire. Yet he was not caught striking stones together or rubbing the wood in such a way as to make a flame. He was caught gathering wood. Thus, gathering wood is forbidden according to the Torah. Would you not agree with that?

 

[Lulav]

I never said he didn't know she was married, but look at the story told him by Nathan.

And if you are offended it was not intentional, but I wanted to point out to you that many Gentiles do like to point fingers at David and Solomon, Abraham etc whereas most of Jews do not. It usually stems from the fact that the Gentiles ancestors are not written about by name and studied like ours are and they don't even see it that way.

Instead of focusing on this though, why didn't you address Moses, Adam, Judah and Jacob who I did comment on?

 

[JeffTheLearner]

I don't like how this subject always allows a leavened conversation about "intentional vs' unintentional sin" creep in with its outside Talmudic doctrines to slip in which forget the context as I mentioned above. The Talmud offers no worthy relevance on this issue, the scripture itself is more powerful.

...that this is an issue of regarding YHVH Holy while He was in the midst of Israel. That the tone of scripture points to a tone of contempt towards the command and therefore the penalty is not an unjust one ...that a man was executed for working on Sabbath as some are hoping to imply, which is not so.

This was an act of Rebellion, and a deed of expressing contempt to YHVH's Command.

 

[mercy1061]

2 Samuel
11 In the spring, when the kings normally went out to war, David sent out Joab, his servants, and all the Israelites. They destroyed the Ammonites and attacked the city of Rabbah. But David stayed in Jerusalem. 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof[a] of his palace. While he was on the roof, he saw a woman bathing. She was very beautiful. 3 So David sent his servants to find out who she was. A servant answered, “That woman is Bathsheba daughter of Eliam. She is the wife of Uriah the Hittite.”


In other words, David KNEW she was married because his servant told him.... He knowingly committed adultery.

As for your nonsense about anti-Semitic I take GREAT offense to that

Lulav is right here, David did not know he committed a sin, actually David broke a peace agreement between the Hittites and Israel. A common practice for enemies to intermarry to avoid war or complete irradication of a nation. The part of Torah that most Christians ignore, is that Uriahs marriage to Bethsheba was illegal, forbidden, disannulled by Abraham. The tribe of Judah commonly married the Cannanites, this case was no different, David really did not commit adultery, he broke a peace agreement which actually worse. For this cause there will be no peace in the middle east, Israel is always breaking peace agreements.