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Lighting a fire on Shabbat

mercy1061

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That is NOT what scripture says.... Sorry, but I side with what the text actually says

Do the scriptures call David a murderer, as you have done? In fact, David turned Uriah the Hittite over to his own people. No Jew laid any hand on Uriah . Uriah the Hittite was not the only soldier killed in war, other soldiers were killed, Uriah was only one of them . As Nathan prophecy said the king stole one of the poor man's sheep so that he would not have to sacrifice one of his own for dinner. Uriah delivered the message from the king to have himself placed on the front line, unlike David , Uriah was weak in battle. David defeated Goliath to marry one of Saul daughters. Uriah did not have to fight those Caananites alone, as David fought Goliath. This certainly was not murder, Uriah had a grave opportunity to prove himself as a worthy soldier, and not simply an informant , betrayer or spie.
 
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BukiRob

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Do the scriptures call David a murderer, as you have done? In fact, David turned Uriah the Hittite over to his own people. No Jew laid any hand on Uriah . Uriah the Hittite was not the only soldier killed in war, other soldiers were killed, Uriah was only one of them . As Nathan prophecy said the king stole one of the poor man's sheep so that he would not have to sacrifice one of his own for dinner. Uriah delivered the message from the king to have himself placed on the front line, unlike David , Uriah was weak in battle. David defeated Goliath to marry one of Saul daughters. Uriah did not have to fight those Caananites alone, as David fought Goliath. This certainly was not murder, Uriah had a grave opportunity to prove himself as a worthy soldier, and not simply an informant , betrayer or spie.

Why do you strive against scripture?

2 Samuel 11: 15 He had written in the letter, saying, “[f]Place Uriah in the front line of the [g]fiercest battle and withdraw from him, so that he may be struck down and die.”

If you cant see that as premeditated murder, you are blind.

Oh, and by the way.... I love David.. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; (acts 13:22)

Anyone looking at the evidence found in 2 Samuel makes it clear that David's acts regarding Uraih and Bathsheba were flat-out, point blank EVIL
 
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mercy1061

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Why do you strive against scripture?

2 Samuel 11: 15 He had written in the letter, saying, “[f]Place Uriah in the front line of the [g]fiercest battle and withdraw from him, so that he may be struck down and die.”

If you cant see that as premeditated murder, you are blind.

Oh, and by the way.... I love David.. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; (acts 13:22)

Anyone looking at the evidence found in 2 Samuel makes it clear that David's acts regarding Uraih and Bathsheba were flat-out, point blank EVIL

So we agree David was not called a murderer according to the scriptures. Uriah carried the message to Joab? Uriah died among other soldiers. Uriah was not killed by a Jew, Uriah could have fought and defeated his enemy like David did with Goliath. Uriah could have not delivered the message to Joab, like the Hebrew mothers refused to kill their babies , they refused to obey the pharaoh orders. Uriah the Hittite was not a true Hebrew.
 
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Norbert L

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If you cant see that as premeditated murder, you are blind.
You were not there, neither was I or mercy1061

Here are the words of Nathan the prophet, who was living during that time:

"You murdered Uriyah the Hitti with the sword and taken his wife as your own wife; you put him to death with the sword of the people of Amon. "

Interesting how some teaching I have read preaches the idea Uriyah was disobeying the king of Israel orders-> one nation under God. Which concludes David was guiltless and Uriyah was in the wrong and his death a proper punishment.
 
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mercy1061

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You were not there, neither was I or mercy1061

Here are the words of Nathan the prophet, who was living during that time:

"You murdered Uriyah the Hitti with the sword and taken his wife as your own wife; you put him to death with the sword of the people of Amon. "

Interesting how some teaching I have read preaches the idea Uriyah was disobeying the king of Israel orders-> one nation under God. Which concludes David was guiltless and Uriyah was in the wrong and his death a proper punishment.

You and Nathan are right, David murdered Uriah with the sword of Amon. I don't believe David was guiltless, however Uriah could have done some things differently to preserve his own life, possibly went home or never sent Joab the orders. I see Nathan accusing David, I am unsure if Nathan's accusations could be prosecuted and if David would have been found guilty in a court of law. Afterall the Amonites did kill Uriah, maybe David would have been found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
 
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Meowzltov

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Its not about "lighting" Its about the process of starting a fire. They didn't have lighters or matches... starting a fire back then would have taken a tremendous amount of effort and exertion of energy. Some form of friction would have been used to start a fire.

Again, I do not think or believe that it carries the same connotation as flipping a switch or turning a dial on a stove or cook-top.
So (clarifying) you light your stovetop, for example?
 
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Lulav

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This is a great example of what different translations do.

The Ten Commandments read

לֹא תִרְצָח Which in English it says, 'Thou shalt not murder' Lo ratzach

Now in 2 Samuel it says

You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites.



Why, then, have you despised the word of the LORD and done this horrible deed? For you have murdered Uriah the Hittite with the sword of the Ammonites and stolen his wife.


However the word translated struck down and murdered is not the same as the sixth commandment.

This first word is 'nakah' meaning to strike, smite

The second word is 'harag' meaning to kill and by what means is explained as by the sword of the Ammonites.


So we have three different words here

ratzach- meaning to commit what we call premeditated murder
nakah - meaning to strike someone down ( we might call it today putting out a hit on someone)
harag- which means to kill but not directly in this case as it is quantified by how, the sword of the Ammorites.
 
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Meowzltov

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Indeed. This is where I would derive the concept of muktseh (מוקצה). That is, it is not only forbidden to write on Shabbat, but even to hold a pen. It's not only forbidden to build a fire, but also to handle kindling wood. It is not only forbidden to build a table, but also to hold a hammer. There are tools for doing work, and handling these tools on Shabbat is also forbidden. That is the entire concept of muktseh.
I have to agree with Yonah in this. The kindling of a fire is preceded by the handling of wood: muktseh. It is thus also forbidden.
 
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Meowzltov

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Intentional and unintentional sins... This is so obvious to me now, but it was not obvious to me before, so I will try to explain it as I understand it today.

Because unintentional sins are still sins, they do carry a penalty. However, because they are unintentional they carry no personal responsibility and thus we are able to atone for them ourselves. For this reason a sin offering is possible.

This is not the case for intentional sins. We cannot ourselves atone for them. We must go to God empty handed and be utterly, utterly dependent upon his GRACE and MERCY for forgiveness.

This can be seen in the case of David's adultery and murder. When Nathan reveals to David his guilt, David exclaims a heartfelt, "I have sinned!" Does Nathan then advise David to go quickly and make a sin offering? NO!!! He tells David that his sin is ALREADY FORGIVEN.

For God IS a God of mercy and grace, who WANTS us to come to himself in repentence, who WANTS to forgive us. When we come to him doing t'shuva, he forgets our sins, casting them into the sea. David did not need a bullock. His broken heart and contrite spirit were the sacrifice pleasing to Hashem.
 
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BukiRob

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So (clarifying) you light your stovetop, for example?

No my stove top is electric... there is nothing to light same with the oven and refrigerator... all electric but you are missing the point....

Last time I checked you don't kindle a fire to light a gas stove... most use a lit pilot light anyway
 
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mercy1061

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You were not there, neither was I or mercy1061

Here are the words of Nathan the prophet, who was living during that time:

"You murdered Uriyah the Hitti with the sword and taken his wife as your own wife; you put him to death with the sword of the people of Amon. "

Interesting how some teaching I have read preaches the idea Uriyah was disobeying the king of Israel orders-> one nation under God. Which concludes David was guiltless and Uriyah was in the wrong and his death a proper punishment.

When David desired to fight Goliath, Saul told him to go home. David went home.
 
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BukiRob

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You and Nathan are right, David murdered Uriah with the sword of Amon. I don't believe David was guiltless, however Uriah could have done some things differently to preserve his own life, possibly went home or never sent Joab the orders. I see Nathan accusing David, I am unsure if Nathan's accusations could be prosecuted and if David would have been found guilty in a court of law. Afterall the Amonites did kill Uriah, maybe David would have been found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

Scripture says that David MURDERED Uriah... HOW he committed murder is irrelevant. Murder is a sin.

Your line of though might have some validity had those orders said put Uriah at the front where the fighting is the most severe.... (I personally would still call it murder but an argument could be made that it might not be murder.)

Where it becomes and overt act of murder is when the instructions are to have everyone else draw back to INSURE that he is killed... that is murder and it doesn't matter if its with a hammer, poison or the sword (in this case, the enemies) The legal question is INTENT... David's intent was to INSURE that Uriah was killed so that he could take Bathsheba.

It is and was a vile act.

This to me is more about the mercy of G-d and David's true repentance. Make no mistake though, David knew exactly what he was doing and he knew it was wrong.

“Place _____ in the front line of the fiercest battle and withdraw from him, so that he may be struck down and die.”

No military or civilian court would see those orders as anything but murder. The blank of course is Uriah and those are David's orders.

Your suggestion about Uriah is completely unlikely. First off despite your assertions to the contrary Uriah was sojourning with Israel and was so loyal to David and Israel that he refused the comfort of his wife because he considered as not right that those Israelite who were fighting for the king were unable to be with their wives.

Secondly, no soldier would EVER not deliver orders from the king unless he were a spy... the idea would never have crossed his mind... like EVER.

3rd and I take GREAT exception with this... is that your view of Uriah as the bad guy here is quite frankly, borderline obscene. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to even hint that Uriah is anything other than a faithful servant to David.

In fact Uraih in Hebrew means "the Lord is Light"

Uraih tells David "Uriah said to David, "The Ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my master Joab and my lord's men are camped in the open fields. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and lie with my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!"

I find it very disturbing that you would paint a man who by scriptural accounts is a LOYAL and FAITHFUL servant as the bad guy and when scripture CLEARLY points out David's very clear sin, you try and spin davids actions as basically no sin at all...

G-d certainly disagree's with that view as the penalty David pay's is very, very, very severe. 2 Sam 12

1 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in [f]broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [g]under the sun.’” 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has [h]taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15 So Nathan went to his house.
 
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Lulav

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Scripture says that David MURDERED Uriah... HOW he committed murder is irrelevant. Murder is a sin.

Your line of though might have some validity had those orders said put Uriah at the front where the fighting is the most severe.... (I personally would still call it murder but an argument could be made that it might not be murder.)

Where it becomes and overt act of murder is when the instructions are to have everyone else draw back to INSURE that he is killed... that is murder and it doesn't matter if its with a hammer, poison or the sword (in this case, the enemies) The legal question is INTENT... David's intent was to INSURE that Uriah was killed so that he could take Bathsheba.

It is and was a vile act.

This to me is more about the mercy of G-d and David's true repentance. Make no mistake though, David knew exactly what he was doing and he knew it was wrong.

“Place _____ in the front line of the fiercest battle and withdraw from him, so that he may be struck down and die.”

No military or civilian court would see those orders as anything but murder. The blank of course is Uriah and those are David's orders.

Your suggestion about Uriah is completely unlikely. First off despite your assertions to the contrary Uriah was sojourning with Israel and was so loyal to David and Israel that he refused the comfort of his wife because he considered as not right that those Israelite who were fighting for the king were unable to be with their wives.

Secondly, no soldier would EVER not deliver orders from the king unless he were a spy... the idea would never have crossed his mind... like EVER.

3rd and I take GREAT exception with this... is that your view of Uriah as the bad guy here is quite frankly, borderline obscene. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to even hint that Uriah is anything other than a faithful servant to David.

In fact Uraih in Hebrew means "the Lord is Light"

Uraih tells David "Uriah said to David, "The Ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my master Joab and my lord's men are camped in the open fields. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and lie with my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!"

I find it very disturbing that you would paint a man who by scriptural accounts is a LOYAL and FAITHFUL servant as the bad guy and when scripture CLEARLY points out David's very clear sin, you try and spin davids actions as basically no sin at all...

G-d certainly disagrees with that view as the penalty David pay's is very, very, very severe. 2 Sam 12

1 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in [f]broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [g]under the sun.’” 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has [h]taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15 So Nathan went to his house.


BR, did you read this post?

Also I have read through this and have seen that David, who was the King but also would be like the commander in chief gave Uriah an order and he basically disobeyed.

6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going.
8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him.

9
But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.



I think perhaps there is more to the story than what we see on the face of it.

Besides the word murder not being using in the Hebrew text we also have this from the Torah which is a commandment given to Israel.


20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the L-RD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the L-RD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the L-RD your God.
 
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BukiRob

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BR, did you read this post?

Also I have read through this and have seen that David, who was the King but also would be like the commander in chief gave Uriah an order and he basically disobeyed.

6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going.
8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him.

9
But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.



I think perhaps there is more to the story than what we see on the face of it.

Besides the word murder not being using in the Hebrew text we also have this from the Torah which is a commandment given to Israel.


20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the L-RD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the L-RD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the L-RD your God.

Im sorry but you are grasping at straws....

David sinned and its just that simple and his sin was intentional and that's just how it is
 
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