Lighting a fire on Shabbat

Lulav · Apr 16, 2015

In another thread Sabbath rulings were being discussed. I took note of what Moses told the people while they were in the desert.

Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."
"You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."
You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.
You must not even light a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath."
Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
Do not light a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath day."
You shall kindle no fire in any of your habitations on the sabbath day.
You are not to light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath."
You shall kindle no fire in any of your habitations on the sabbath day.
Moreouer ye shall kyndle no fyre thorow out all youre habitacyons apo the Sabbath daye.
You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat."
Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.'

A dozen translations and they all say basically the same thing.

Do not light a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath day."

Not to light a fire in any of your homes, dwelling places, houses habitations on the Sabbath.

But it says nothing about outside your home. If it meant a community then the priests would not have been able to do their duties in the mishkan or later on in the Temple.

visionary · Apr 16, 2015

Lulav said:
In another thread Sabbath rulings were being discussed. I took note of what Moses told the people while they were in the desert.

Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

"You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."

You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.

You must not even light a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath."

Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Do not light a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath day."

You shall kindle no fire in any of your habitations on the sabbath day.

You are not to light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath."

You shall kindle no fire in any of your habitations on the sabbath day.

Moreouer ye shall kyndle no fyre thorow out all youre habitacyons apo the Sabbath daye.

You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat."

Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.'

A dozen translations and they all say basically the same thing.

Do not light a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath day."

Not to light a fire in any of your homes, dwelling places, houses habitations on the Sabbath.

But it says nothing about outside your home. If it meant a community then the priests would not have been able to do their duties in the mishkan or later on in the Temple.

It is all about "lighting" a fire, not about keeping the fire burning.

Lulav · Apr 16, 2015

visionary said:
It is all about "lighting" a fire, not about keeping the fire burning.

Right, but my point was the location, I said nothing about keeping it burning.

visionary · Apr 16, 2015

Lulav said:
Right, but my point was the location, I said nothing about keeping it burning.

And a great observation it is because of its difference in place, purpose and the people involved. But even the temple fires were to remain burning at all times. Don't want strange fires to restart it.

Truthfrees · Apr 16, 2015

So is that why Orthodox Jews leave hotplates on for 24 hours to avoid kindling a fire?

Driving a gas fueled car would be kindling a fire wouldn't it?

Turning on a light or electrical appliance doesn't involve fire though.

But heating a meal would be working or creating wouldn't it?

Is that why the Talmud talks of eating only cold food on Shabbat?

We picnic on Shabbat.

Everything is cold or room temperature.

It's only 24hrs 1 time a week.

Everyone enjoys our special 24 hour Shabbat picnic.

It's special to us.

We eat differently than the rest of the week.

yonah_mishael · Apr 17, 2015

Hot plates don't have to do with this question really.

The prohibition does indeed include adding wood to a fire to keep it going. The word בער bi'er means "make burn." It includes both starting a fire (which is specifically called הדלקת א&#1513 and keeping it going.

The word מושב means "dwelling place," which can refer to more than just a house. It's chosen to say that you shouldn't burn fires anywhere.

visionary · Apr 17, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
Hot plates don't have to do with this question really.

The prohibition does indeed include adding wood to a fire to keep it going. The word בער bi'er means "make burn." It includes both starting a fire (which is specifically called הדלקת א&#1513 and keeping it going.

The word מושב means "dwelling place," which can refer to more than just a house. It's chosen to say that you shouldn't burn fires anywhere.

If we go with the "make burn" then no burn is the answer. I don't believe God stated that anywhere.

Lulav · Apr 17, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
Hot plates don't have to do with this question really.

The prohibition does indeed include adding wood to a fire to keep it going. The word בער bi'er means "make burn." It includes both starting a fire (which is specifically called הדלקת א&#1513 and keeping it going.

The word מושב means "dwelling place," which can refer to more than just a house. It's chosen to say that you shouldn't burn fires anywhere.

Yeah, I used to think that too, but all the translations infer where you are aboding in.

in any of your homes

Now since we take our understanding of Shabbat ordinances from the works of the Mishkan we have to take this commandment as being given in the wilderness where the mishkan was set up and the people camped around it. This whole encampment could be considered their dwelling place, however in the center of it all was the Mishkan (tabernacle) which had daily sacrifices, even on Shabbat so there would be under your definition, a fire being burned on Shabbat and kept burning for the Sacrificial duties.

I think that in itself tells us that it doesn't mean a whole community or 'anywhere'.

yonah_mishael · Apr 17, 2015

Israel is commanded not to wear sha'atnez. The high priestly garments are made of sha'atnez.

Israel is commanded not to make fire on Shabbat. The priests still offer sacrifices on Shabbat, which includes adding wood to the fire under the altar.

I think you will find there are a great many things that "Israel" is commanded not to do, while the priests are commanded to do them.

Perhaps sha'atnez is holy and the fires on the altar are holy, and for anyone else to use sha'atnez or to use fire on Shabbat is profaning their sanctity.

As it is, using fire on Shabbat is forbidden, except if it was lit before Shabbat and isn't touched, moved, stoked, prodded or kindled after Shabbat has begun.

visionary · Apr 17, 2015

it is permitted to avail oneself of a non-Jew's services in order to heat a home on a cold winter day. If it is only mildly cold, it is only permissible to ask a non-Jew to put on the heat if there are children present who are suffering discomfort due to the low temperature.

Thus if someone's electric, gas or oil heater needs to be kindled on a winter Shabbat – whether because it went out, or because it suddenly became very cold, or the like – it is perfectly permissible to recruit a non-Jew to turn on the thermostat. Heating a Home on Shabbat - Shabbat

If it is good for the goose then it is good for the gander. But obviously, it is not working for the goose so they hire a gander to do it... Now how is that obedient. That is halacha that voids the Law. Unless the interpretation of the Law is too extreme. Hence my position is that, "kindling" is starting where the most work is performed. Throwing another stick on is not a whole lot of effort. Everyone will have to individually decide on how to keep the Shabbat a place for praising Him for His blessings and not burdened with traditions which make it grievous..

Vlad The Exhaler · Apr 18, 2015

Do Sabbath observant Jews/Messianics refrain from turning on their gas heater on the Sabbath even if the temperatures outside are freezing or below freezing?

BelieveTheWord · Apr 18, 2015

It's kind of a moot point. There is no reason to start a fire outside, except to work.

yonah_mishael · Apr 18, 2015

Vlad The Exhaler said:
Do Sabbath observant Jews/Messianics refrain from turning on their gas heater on the Sabbath even if the temperatures outside are freezing or below freezing?

An observant Jew will have made arrangements for heat that would not necessitate turning on a heater during Shabbat. As I said, it's all about readiness and preparation.

Hoshiyya · Apr 18, 2015

Vlad The Exhaler said:
Do Sabbath observant Jews/Messianics refrain from turning on their gas heater on the Sabbath even if the temperatures outside are freezing or below freezing?

Certain rules are literally impossible to keep in certain parts of the world. In the polar regions there is no day and night as we know, it is like being on Jupiter.

Conditions can also be inhumane, and since Shabbat is all about life and not death, one would have to make compromise with Shabbat in order to even survive in certain particularly cold areas of the world. So it is perhaps a way of saying that we aren't even supposed to live in certain parts of the world assuming we also want to keep Shabbat properly.

BukiRob · Apr 20, 2015

visionary said:
It is all about "lighting" a fire, not about keeping the fire burning.

Its not about "lighting" Its about the process of starting a fire. They didn't have lighters or matches... starting a fire back then would have taken a tremendous amount of effort and exertion of energy. Some form of friction would have been used to start a fire.

Again, I do not think or believe that it carries the same connotation as flipping a switch or turning a dial on a stove or cook-top.

Lulav · Apr 20, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
It's kind of a moot point. There is no reason to start a fire outside, except to work.

Have you ever camped out? Fires are not in the tents, but are used for keeping warm as well as heating food and keeping bugs, snakes and large animals away.

pshun2404 · Apr 21, 2015

In the covenant made at Horeb, the priests were not bound by the rule of the Sabbath and worked every 7th day, all day....

sevengreenbeans · Apr 22, 2015

The context for the man found gathering wood on Shabbat is unintentional sin vs. intentional sin. There is no recourse for intentional sin. That soul is cut off and his sin is upon him. There is, however, atonement for unintentional sin.

BukiRob · Apr 22, 2015

sevengreenbeans said:
The context for the man found gathering wood on Shabbat is unintentional sin vs. intentional sin. There is no recourse for intentional sin. That soul is cut off and his sin is upon him. There is, however, atonement for unintentional sin.

hmmm was David's sin with Bathsheba intentional? Manasseh’s sin, or the sin of the prodigal son? Were these not all deliberate sins? And how about Moses’ sin of striking the rock when God said to speak to it, or Adam’s sin in taking of the fruit in the garden, or Judah’s sin in having sex with a person he thought was a prostitute, or Samson’s sin in seeking to marry a Philistine, or Jacob’s sin in lying to his father, or Peter’s sin in denying Christ? And what about those of us who have sinned deliberately? Does the “our sins” of 1 John 1:9 exclude intentional sins? Is there no hope for murderers to repent, or liars, or covetous people, or adulterers?

Much, if not MOST sin, is done intentionally.... to say that there is no forgiveness for intentional sin is to say that 100% of humanity is doomed. Not one of us INCLUDING YOU has lived a life free from intentional sin

sevengreenbeans · Apr 22, 2015

BukiRob said:
hmmm was David's sin with Bathsheba intentional? Manassehs sin, or the sin of the prodigal son? Were these not all deliberate sins? And how about Moses sin of striking the rock when God said to speak to it, or Adams sin in taking of the fruit in the garden, or Judahs sin in having sex with a person he thought was a prostitute, or Samsons sin in seeking to marry a Philistine, or Jacobs sin in lying to his father, or Peters sin in denying Christ? And what about those of us who have sinned deliberately? Does the our sins of 1 John 1:9 exclude intentional sins? Is there no hope for murderers to repent, or liars, or covetous people, or adulterers?

Much, if not MOST sin, is done intentionally.... to say that there is no forgiveness for intentional sin is to say that 100% of humanity is doomed. Not one of us INCLUDING YOU has lived a life free from intentional sin

Numbers 15:28-31 "And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that sins ignorantly, when he sins unintentionally, before the L-RD, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven, both he that is home-born among the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourns among them: you shall have one law for him that does anything unintentionally. But the soul that sins arrogantly, whether he be home-born or a stranger, the same blasphemes the L-RD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the L-RD, and has broken His commandment; that soul shall utterly be cut off, his iniquity shall be upon him."

Torah states there is no sacrifice for intentional sin... violating commandments arrogantly and on purpose... pre-meditated. There is only atonement for unintentional sin. It's all in the words of the Torah, and the Torah has not been done away with, correct? Not any part of it?

That's why the man found gathering on the Sabbath was cut off. He had no circumcision of the heart. He was arrogant, prideful, and without remorse.

Lighting a fire on Shabbat

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