• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Life Without Gender?

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
182,365
65,999
Woods
✟5,878,832.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Are We Facing a Genderless Future?

A small but growing number of people are rejecting being labeled male or female.



Click here to check out photos of transgender Americans
New Bodies, New Lives

This spring, an Australian named Norrie May-Welby made headlines around the world as the world’s first legally genderless person when the New South Wales Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages sent the Sydney resident a certificate containing neither M for male or F for female.



For a few days, it appeared that the 48-year-old activist and performer had won a long legal battle to be declared “sex not specified”—the only category that felt right to this immigrant from Scotland. May-Welby’s journey of gender identity can only be characterized as a long and winding road. Registered male at birth, May-Welby began taking female hormones at 23 and had sex-change surgery to become a woman, but now doesn’t take any hormones and identifies as genderless. The prized piece of paper May-Welby sought is called a Recognised Details Certificate, and it’s given to immigrants to Australia who want to record a sex change.



But the victory was short-lived. After so much publicity, it was perhaps inevitable that the New South Wales government would backtrack—which itdid a few days later, saying the registry didn’t have the legal authority to issue a certificate with anything but male or female. May-Welby (who now goes by the single name Norrie) has filed an appeal with the Australian Human Rights Commission.

Continued- http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/16/life-without-gender.html
 

PilgrimToChrist

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2009
3,847
402
✟6,075.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Like most trans things, it's MTF dominated and contains several... for lack of a better term, "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] trainwrecks".

Here's a couple to counter-balance:

ryan02(1).jpg


colton03.jpg


yum.
 
Upvote 0

PilgrimToChrist

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2009
3,847
402
✟6,075.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
What about people who are born with both genders organs? How do they identify? Is it appropriate to perform surgery so that they become one or the other...and do you wait until they are old enough to consent? Just something I've often wondered about.

Well, you can't be born with both organs because they come from the same place. We all start off as what is called "proto-female" and then depending on chromosomes, prenatal hormones and some other factors, we either fully develop as females or develop as males. Sometimes the body gets mixed messages though and develops abnormally. There was a recent thread on Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) and I posted a picture (behind a link) of an infant girl with CAH and ambiguous genitalia.

What is called a "true hermaphrodite" has one ovary and one ball (undescended, as I understand) since they were the same thing originally, but these are rare. When genitalia are ambiguous, doctors tend to give the children surgery to make them into girls simply because vaginas are easier to surgically create than penises. Things are getting better though, they operate less often than they used to and clitoridectomies are no longer performed (what is called "brutality" and "a human rights violation" when done in Africa is called "medicine" and "socially necessary" when done in the US).

The effort of the Intersex Society of North America (ISNA) is to eliminate all medically-unnecessary operations on children intended to make their genitalia more "socially acceptable". Of course, not everyone agrees with this approach.

As far as I understand, the Church regards sex as defined by the presence or absence of a Y-chromosome, though obviously before this was discovered scientifically, methods were more crude and ambiguous. Thus, say, a child with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome who appears female and is raised as a girl but then is found out to be genetically male when she fails to start her period would be considered male and thus unable to marry (I don't know if it would be considered necessary for her to live as a man or not, I'm sure people are divided). My friend is a sonographer and actually discovered this in a teenage girl (he told me right after work), he scanned her to see if there was something physically wrong with her uterus and there was -- it was missing -- and he said her ovaries actually looked more like undescended testicles. Luckily, being only a technician, he didn't have to be the one to inform the girl that she was biologically a boy.

Intersex disorders are a complicated issue and so are transsexual issues. The two sometimes overlap -- intersex disorders are much more likely to be found among transsexuals than among the general population -- but they are different issues. I've had many trans friends, primarily female-to-male (FtM), and as a Queer person, I've not been distant from that (I'm not always as femme as my avatar). Indeed, I've dated a couple of trans guys and I was engaged to one (while still living as a girl, though by the end we were going to support group meetings and talking about it more).

So yeah, I'm conservative now and Christian and I don't support gay marriage but I'm hardly one to be objective regarding the trans issue. I can say on the one hand that medically unnecessary operations are sinful (in case anyone was considering a face-lift or a boob job...) and that fundamentally males are male and females are female, but on the other hand, I know what it's like to love someone who is different and hold them as they go through bouts of what is called "gender dysphoria" (opposite of "euphoria") and I sympathize. I'm undecided about what is allowable (and the Church has issues no general guidelines), certainly to suffer more is a greater cross and there are many graces laid up for those who suffer and don't give in to relief. I lean towards the opinion of doing whatever is necessary to live a functional life, as one of my FTM friends said to me a couple months ago. It's good to suffer, yes, but it's also not good to suffer so much that you can't hold a job or engage in acts of self-injury or even suicide -- there must be a limit.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I wonder what scientists have to say about this?
It is scientific fact that it's impossible to change your sex from male to female or the other way around since males will always be genetically male and females will always be genetically female. A male who gets a so-called "sex change" operation is making himself a eunuch. Gender confusion is a growing problem in our society.
 
Upvote 0

Avaitor

Flying for Honor
Aug 10, 2010
93
9
The Internet
✟15,254.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Here is how gender works in my mind.

Open your mouth wide *swabs the inside with cotton and sends it to a lab*

-4 to 6 weeks later-

Oh, the lab says you have [insert xx, xy, or the various genetic mutations like xxy]

(this, just so you know, is why gene therapy could be dangerous, as it could change you down to your basic chromosomes)
 
Upvote 0

Dark_Lite

Chewbacha
Feb 14, 2002
18,333
973
✟52,995.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
It is scientific fact that it's impossible to change your sex from male to female or the other way around since males will always be genetically male and females will always be genetically female. A male who gets a so-called "sex change" operation is making himself a eunuch. Gender confusion is a growing problem in our society.[/SIZE]

Another fun scientific fact: It is possible to be genetically male and female at the same time. Look up human chimeras.
 
Upvote 0

PilgrimToChrist

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2009
3,847
402
✟6,075.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Today at lunch after watching the drama with the gunman at the Discovery Channel building on CNN, I looked at the article which another girl had been reading but who had gone back to work.

It was in the September issue of "Marie Claire" and it was called "Anatomy Lesson". It was about a woman growing up with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) -- the condition I had just mentioned here last night. She was six when she felt an intense pain in her abdomen and her parents took her to the hospital, worried that she had a hernia. In doing the X-ray to see if she had a hernia, it was discovered that she had no uterus and that the pain she felt was her testicles attempting to descend.

The testicles were removed. As she grew up, all her parents told her was that she didn't have a uterus and so couldn't have babies grow inside her, but she could adopt a baby and it would grow in her heart to be hers. Her sister had a school project where she was supposed to research a particular condition and she was selected to do AIS and said "that sounds a lot like my sister." So that's how she learned what exactly she had before her parents were ready.

She is in a relationship with a man and, IIRC, they are getting married.


Now, certainly some people would object, saying that she has XY chromosomes and thus is a male, making her a man and in a homosexual relationship and thus unable to marry. Strictly, they are probably right but she looks like a woman, has a vagina (that she was born with) and has only ever known what it's like to be a girl and a woman, even though she has never had a period and can't have babies. So you could call her a man and she is male technically because she is XY, but you would still deserve to be slapped.

She is part of a support group for other women like her and is trying to raise awareness and explain what it's like growing up with this condition.

So if you're in line at the store or at the library or whatever, read the article. It's sexually-explicit in parts, but hey, we're adults. See if it doesn't bring some sympathy for people who are different.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Another fun scientific fact: It is possible to be genetically male and female at the same time. Look up human chimeras.
That's extremely rare and off topic. The OP was about people being "legally genderless", and my point is that surgery doesn't change genetics. Someone born a male will always be a male, and someone born a female will always be a female regardless of how they mutilate their body.
 
Upvote 0

Dark_Lite

Chewbacha
Feb 14, 2002
18,333
973
✟52,995.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
That's extremely rare and off topic. The OP was about people being "legally genderless", and my point is that surgery doesn't change genetics. Someone born a male will always be a male, and someone born a female will always be a female regardless of how they mutilate their body.

Extremely rare, but still possible. Intersex conditions, while rare, are still far more common than chimeras. They are all relevant to this particular topic. The person in the article needs to pick one side of the fence and get on it, in my opinion.

But we still have to deal with the question of people who are naturally in between what about them? Do they get surgery?
 
Upvote 0

PilgrimToChrist

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2009
3,847
402
✟6,075.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
So, comments:

Should all people with a Y chromosome live as men and all people without one live as women?

In my two examples of girls who learned that they were actually XY, is it wrong for them to continue to live as girls and women? Can they marry?

Is it wrong for someone who apparently has everything physically okay with them but who psychologically is unable to cope with living as the gender they were assigned to live as the opposite gender? This is happening now at younger and younger ages, the stereotype of the man in a midlife crisis who decides to "have a sex change" is going by the wayside, female-to-male transsexuals are more and more visible and gender transition is occurring anywhere from college down to elementary school. By transitioning younger, people are becoming very well integrated as the opposite gender, such that it is a choice whether or not they tell anyone about their history. Is it wrong for them to do this?

If the former is okay but not the latter, where is the dividing line? Clearly, then, it's not only about whether you have a Y chromosome or not.

Does having a Y chromosome definitively make you a man and say that you must live as a man? Does not having one definitively make you a woman and say that you must live as a woman?

Furthermore, is it wrong for me to call my trans exes and friends by their chosen names and genders? Even tonight, flipping channels, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was on Oprah and they were giving this guy a makeover who had dreads. My little sister (who is 12) said "What are dreads?" and I said something about that "A. [my ex-fiance] had dreads until he had to shave them to get a job." and she retorted "Well, A. was a girl." I became defensive but didn't say anything. It was like one time when my boyfriend (trans) at the time and I were walking downtown in the small town where he lived while holding hands. People stopped at the stop light began to look at us and someone shouted "Lesbians!" and I got upset and defensive of him but he said it was okay because people in his town know him as a girl. I've had other times where certain people have attacked my acceptance of my exes' and friends' gender pronouns. If you think it is wrong for people to transition, is it wrong then for other people to address them and refer to them by their new name and pronouns?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0