Life / Figure Drawing

[~Anastasia~]

Yeah, I am reading a lot of threads and I might have missed something, but I thought at first the "heated" comment was meant to be sarcastic.

Perhaps he meant something else anyway, since he noted there was no consensus among posters.

I would add and caution though - consensus doesn't matter. Truly it's wise to seek godly counsel, and weigh what others say. But in the end, even if 99% of posters agree about something, if it doesn't line up with what God says, it still isn't right.

(That is meant as a general comment, not about this topic. Frankly, I see it the way I see it, and my opinion is unchanged by anyone else's interpretation, but I'm not trying to stir up any fight here.

 

[jsimms615]

I don't think the church hall is an appropriate place for this type of art class.

 

[A Catholic Friend]

I wonder do any Christian art schools have life drawing classes?

 

[Sketcher]

What if a person is an art model for one artist at a time in a private studio and not in a public class?

You can, but there's greater potential for being exploited. This is why I don't recommend it.

 

[Sketcher]

I wonder do any Christian art schools have life drawing classes?

I wonder if there are any Christian art schools.

 

[Sketcher]

Not to toot my own horn but:

Bird of Prey by nwaikikai on deviantART

Very good, I must say.

 

[A Catholic Friend]

I wish I could get to know other Christian artists on these forums. I like art a lot and I draw and paint as well.

 

[OGM]

I wish I could get to know other Christian artists on these forums. I like art a lot and I draw and paint as well.

Perhaps you can ask the site administrator to open up an art section.

 

[OGM]

Not to toot my own horn but:

Bird of Prey by nwaikikai on deviantART

("nwaikikai" is the former name of my Aikido dojo where I have taught Aikido for about twenty years now.)

Merry Christmas!

Wow....very, very nice! I wish I could draw that well. Like I said earlier; in life modeling class I always had problems drawing hands/feet and accurately portraying shadows.

My best friend could draw and sculpture a body perfectly. After pre-med he later became a plastic surgeon and specialized in reconstructive surgery. Post-mastectomy, faces through windshields, crushed limbs... He was very good and I really believe his God given gift in art made him a better surgeon. He told me that re-shaping a bone with surgical instruments was similar to what he learned in sculpting class with art material.

He also had the ability to match skin tone (scars, etc.) with a whole palette of special dyes he had. Similar to coloring in a drawing he said.

Happy New Year everybody!!!

 

[gideon123]

My daughter is an artist. She has done life drawing classes. Nude models were an important part of this process. The models included a variety of people - young and old, a pregnant lady, an older woman. These are ART classes. It is not inappropriate contentography .. It is about drawing the human body. And that's a skill that is hard to master.

I learned from my daughter's feedback that modeling is quite difficult. I don't think I could do it ... I could not stay perfectly still for such long time periods.

I have no problem with what you are doing. If your church continues to object, perhaps you need to seek a church with a broader and more open mind.

Blessings,
Gideon

 

[A Catholic Friend]

How long could you hold a pose nude? Is 30 minutes the maximum?

I have been practicing and I am up to 10 minutes now.

 

[A Catholic Friend]

Can Christians be part of performance art? It's almost like being an art model but you are moving and acting in the nude.

Has anyone heard of any Christian actors doing this?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Can Christians be part of performance art? It's almost like being an art model but you are moving and acting in the nude.

Has anyone heard of any Christian actors doing this?

I don't think it matters if you are posing vs. if you are moving and acting. Whatever you believe about one being sinful or not, should probably apply to the other.

I also don't think it matters if any Christian actors are doing it. If it is a sin, you won't be able to stand before God and point a finger and say, "But HE did it!"

And I have to wonder, if someone has to ask is it ok, is there something in your conscience telling you it might not be? Can God be trying to let you know that it's not? These are questions you want to ask yourself and be honest with your answers.

Whatever is not of faith, is sin. So if you're not positive it's ok, then for you it's not, which is another point.

As a Christian, I believe it is not ok to be publicly nude, and for myself I would have to consider it to be shameful. (Not that I am ashamed of my body - but historically in Scripture it has been shameful - something done to captives of war to humble them, etc.)

I'm not trying to pick on anyone, and I realize there's opposing views, and I've read many of them, but I just don't agree. I also see no point in debating, because this isn't a major issue for me since I'm not going to be doing it anyway.

 

[Johnnz]

And I have to wonder, if someone has to ask is it ok, is there something in your conscience telling you it might not be? Can God be trying to let you know that it's not? These are questions you want to ask yourself and be honest with your answers.

Conscience uninformed by sound biblical precepts can be an unreliable guide, subject to social rather than truly biblical values. For example, I have heard the conscience principle used to warn against movies, lipstick, nylon stockings, alcohol consumption and not having a daily 'quiet time'. I also knew a guy raised in a family of thieves who felt guilty when he did not take opportunity to steal when one presented with that option.

We cannot always reduce issues of uncertainty where there is no explicit biblical statement by a reference to conscience. Often that can suppress genuine, and often necessary, questioning.

John
NZ

 

[~Anastasia~]

Conscience uninformed by sound biblical precepts can be an unreliable guide, subject to social rather than truly biblical values. For example, I have heard the conscience principle used to warn against movies, lipstick, nylon stockings, alcohol consumption and not having a daily 'quiet time'. I also knew a guy raised in a family of thieves who felt guilty when he did not take opportunity to steal when one presented with that option.

We cannot always reduce issues of uncertainty where there is no explicit biblical statement by a reference to conscience. Often that can suppress genuine, and often necessary, questioning.

John
NZ

I guess you have a point, in the case of some people's consciences. I wasn't thinking of that.

I saw a recent thread that went well into many hundreds, giving Scripture, and just didn't see a point in going there.

But if you read the Bible, have an understanding of it, then it seems to me that a conscience should be a good guide. I guess I had assumed, if one was asking Christian advice, one would have some knowledge of the Bible, but you may be right.

(Funny, I know a church that required wearing of stockings, and you mention going against them - just ironic)

If you DON'T know Scripture, then I suppose the fact that whatever is not of faith is sin ... could cause a real problem.

 

[Johnnz]

As a Christian, I believe it is not ok to be publicly nude, and for myself I would have to consider it to be shameful. (Not that I am ashamed of my body - but historically in Scripture it has been shameful - something done to captives of war to humble them, etc.)

I have reread your post. I grew up with the view you expressed here, but I no longer accept that is an adequate understanding of the Scriptures. Here is some material from a couple of Christian scholars, which is pretty representative of similar material I have come across.

The kinds of images which are utilised in that ‘soft’ inappropriate contentography market which is the stock in trade of the middle shelves (let alone the top shelves!) of our newsagents’ shops are only a part of a much fuller realm of symbol and meaning. Nakedness has many associations. The following list is not intended to be exhaustive, but to give some idea of the range of ways in which nakedness can serve as a potent image, conjuring up a variety of different ideas. Some of these are obvious and literal, others are not. But they indicate the capacity of the rich range of meanings of the concept of nakedness. It is worth presenting them here, if only to prevent us leaping too quickly and exclusively to an association of nakedness and the erotic.
A Innocence: the nakedness of the new-born baby as a symbol of innocence. Clothes can be a mask, and their absence a symbol by way of contrast of our capacity (and perhaps our need or desire) to hide our true selves.
B Vulnerability: again, the new-born baby may serve as a powerful image of a need for protection. Clothes can cover and protect against cold and wet, and can be armour against attack. There are biblical examples perhaps indicating dependency in Job 1.21 and Ecclesiastes 5.15, and helplessness in Hosea 2.3.
C Poverty: the incapacity to afford clothing can mean the necessity of going naked. This may carry consequent implications of pity and shame, though here the pity and shame do not focus on the nakedness as much as they do upon the poverty which causes it. We see an association of poverty and nakedness in Job 24.4–10, though here the nakedness appears at least in part to be the result of specific acts of oppression. The association of nakedness and humiliation is emphasized in Amos 2.16.
D Punishment: perhaps connected with humiliation, the stripping of those to be punished may emphasize their degradation and vulnerability in the face of the power of those who in inflict punishment. Christians may particularly recall the stripping of Jesus for crucifixion.
E Madness and possession: the story of the demoniac in the Gospel of Mark implies this connection (see Mark 5.15, where the restored demoniac is described as ‘clothed and in his right mind.’) Compare Calvin’s comment: ‘Though we are not tormented by the devil, yet he holds us as his slaves, till the Son of God delivers us from his tyranny. Naked, torn and disfigured, we wander about, till he restores us to soundness of mind.’
F Power: Roman emperors once ‘showed their unchallenged power by posing nude.
G Transparency/openness: we may speak of being ‘laid bare’ before someone, perhaps involuntarily, and Christians may hold their lives to be lived in a special aspect of transparent nakedness of this sort towards God. Interestingly, a word used in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) for making bare or uncovering, the Hebrew ’rh, is apokalypto —reveal, disclose—from which we get the word (now a very-long-dead metaphor) apocalypse!
H Sexual connotations: nakedness is associated with sexual arousal or availability, though the teasing promise of nakedness (semi-nakedness) may serve this purpose rather better than actual nakedness! This same teasing nakedness reduced to an object may serve to provoke irrelevant erotic associations with market goods through advertising.
I Actual nakedness as presented pictorially often functions in an importantly different way, presenting the naked person as an object. None of these need have any special claim to be thought of as the meaning of nakedness. In fact, it might be the case that none of them have any necessary part to play in an analysis of nakedness. Even if the sexual connotations of nakedness are most obvious in cultures such as our own, where sexual obsession and sexual display are most marked, there is no reason to imagine that all cultures must experience nakedness that way.

John
NZ

 

[A Catholic Friend]

I just asked a simple question and you turned it into a term paper? Are you the kind that looks for evil under every rock? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have reread your post. I grew up with the view you expressed here, but I no longer accept that is an adequate understanding of the Scriptures. Here is some material from a couple of Christian scholars, which is pretty representative of similar material I have come across.

<snip>

Well, I did read your list and I am well aware that nakedness has other connotations that I did not list. However ... we are not speaking of a baby acting on stage (I would actually have a different opinion of a baby being shown naked). Only the Roman emperor has a positive public connotation with nakedness, and even that is more closely related to pride than another human emotion, which of course is not considered positive, Biblically.

I'm still unconvinced that going naked in public is a good thing according to God. I can appreciate the work you put into this. But I don't see anything there that would change my mind. The OP, of course, can take anyone's opinions as they wish. I was answering from my opinions formed from Scripture.

Thanks for the list though.

 

[Peripatetic]

Here's an interesting analogy that might show the cultural lens through which we see this topic. Image if our culture was as sensitive to violence as it is to sexuality. It would be as surprising for them to see the popularity of CSI or Breaking Bad as we would be if soft inappropriate content shows were mainstream ratings winners on prime time networks and basic cable in our day. But that's a different story.

The analogy that we might have is sports, since today is Super Bowl Sunday here in the USA. In that culture, some Christians would view sports as a continuum - Golf and Baseball would be OK; Hockey and Football might be on the edge and hotly debated; Boxing and UFC would be considered clearly sinful but legal; while dog fighting and human trafficking for fight clubs would be both sinful and illegal.

Other Christians might say that all sports are sinful because they can lead to the surges in testosterone and adrenaline that cause more violence. By simply watching a football game, a boy might want to go into the back yard and do football violence towards another boy as an imitation of what he saw.

Some would praise the beauty, grace, and competitiveness of sport, while others would condemn not just the violence, but the humiliation of losing, the pride of showing off, and the unrealistic bar it sets with people who could never be that athletic.

People would pull scriptures to support both arguments, with varying degrees of contextual relevancy. Paul's reference to "Body is a temple, not your own" vs. his running the race analogy, as an example.

When I think about it, almost every idea presented above seems completely plausible, and each one has a direct parallel with nudity. If I were in that culture, I'd probably see sports as a continuum where some was had artistic or entertainment value, some would probably challenge my conscience, and I'd see others as no-brainer sin. Admittedly, the cultural impact would probably affect my opinion too, such that I might see boxing or UFC (or maybe even football?) in a worse light given taboo that it would carry.

I see nudity with the same perspective. The sensitivity in our culture does matter, so it's not as simple as saying that we should just be matter of fact about it and move on. On the other hand, I do see it as a range, with obviously sinful applications, gray areas that require further understanding, and times where the beauty and grace has artistic value and is not presented in a degrading or exploitative way.

In the case of figure art, the circumstances of the model and artists matter, but I think it would be a shame to shut it all down as sinful, given that the motives are probably artistic and aesthetic more often than voyeuristic.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here's an interesting analogy that might show the cultural lens through which we see this topic. Image if our culture was as sensitive to violence as it is to sexuality. It would be as surprising for them to see the popularity of CSI or Breaking Bad as we would be if soft inappropriate content shows were mainstream ratings winners on prime time networks and basic cable in our day. But that's a different story.

The analogy that we might have is sports, since today is Super Bowl Sunday here in the USA. In that culture, some Christians would view sports as a continuum - Golf and Baseball would be OK; Hockey and Football might be on the edge and hotly debated; Boxing and UFC would be considered clearly sinful but legal; while dog fighting and human trafficking for fight clubs would be both sinful and illegal.

Other Christians might say that all sports are sinful because they can lead to the surges in testosterone and adrenaline that cause more violence. By simply watching a football game, a boy might want to go into the back yard and do football violence towards another boy as an imitation of what he saw.

Some would praise the beauty, grace, and competitiveness of sport, while others would condemn not just the violence, but the humiliation of losing, the pride of showing off, and the unrealistic bar it sets with people who could never be that athletic.

People would pull scriptures to support both arguments, with varying degrees of contextual relevancy. Paul's reference to "Body is a temple, not your own" vs. his running the race analogy, as an example.

When I think about it, almost every idea presented above seems completely plausible, and each one has a direct parallel with nudity. If I were in that culture, I'd probably see sports as a continuum where some was had artistic or entertainment value, some would probably challenge my conscience, and I'd see others as no-brainer sin. Admittedly, the cultural impact would probably affect my opinion too, such that I might see boxing or UFC (or maybe even football?) in a worse light given taboo that it would carry.

I see nudity with the same perspective. The sensitivity in our culture does matter, so it's not as simple as saying that we should just be matter of fact about it and move on. On the other hand, I do see it as a range, with obviously sinful applications, gray areas that require further understanding, and times where the beauty and grace is evident because it is not presented in a degrading or exploitative way.

In the case of figure art, the circumstances of the model and artists matter, but I think it would be a shame to shut it all down as sinful, given that the motives are probably artistic and aesthetic more often than voyeuristic.

Hmmmm .... that is a VERY interesting analogy. And probably requires more thought.

I'm going to admit to you that my knee-jerk reaction though is that there ARE Scriptures that speak against tempting others to lust, that equate lust with the act of adultery, and that we are told to be modest in our clothing (which admittedly has more to do with adorning the heart than the body in the passages that come first to mind - there may be others though).

I'm also a bit wary of being drawn into philosophical thinking that allows one to begin to interpret Scripture not according to its intent. Now, I'm NOT saying you are doing that, Peripatetic (and I'm actually glad to see you here - I owe you a pm! and it's precisely because we have spoken that I feel free enough to mention my immediate concern because I hope you'll understand that I do NOT accuse you in this).

It would require a bit more careful thinking, and I admit I'm really focusing on other things right now, and since I doubt this will ever apply to me personally, I probably won't be able to give it the consideration it deserves.

But ... you make a very good point, and those are my immediate reactions, along with the idea that it really must be thought through to know if my reactions are actually correct.