"Life and its building blocks are way too complicated to have evolved." [moved]

[-57]

And still no names of those scientists, which you claim can provide evidence that retroviral insertions are not in the same locations for chimpanzees and humans...?

I think you could find some of those names on my links. Do I need to dig them out for you?

 

[SteveB28]

I think you could find some of those names on my links. Do I need to dig them out for you?

Indeed you do!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... Everything in the universe has a beginning and the atomic bonds are unstable and they begin to break down from the beginning. The suggestion that errors, mistakes and mutations builds and creates anything is absurd beyond imagination. Things do not build and create themselves, they decompose. Life goes from order to chaos.

That's true as an overall picture, but if you study the progression of low entropy systems you'll find that the entropy gradient drives them towards thermodynamic equilibrium by way of the dissipation of energy. This favours configurations that maximize the dissipation of energy - and guess what? energy dissipation roughly corresponds to system complexity. So over the lifetime of the system as a whole, there is a tendency towards increasing complexity that peaks around halfway through, then drops off as the entropy gradient flattens.

So the entropy gradient drives increasing complexity to maximize energy dissipation, and guess what again? self-replicating systems dissipate energy very effectively, and the greater their structural organization, the greater the dissipation. This results in a self-organizing principle ('dissipation-driven adaptive organization') that applies to all kinds of systems driven by energy gradients, from vortices in fluid systems to the clustering of microspheres, and, of course, the most effective dissipators of all, living things.

The principle works like this: when a group of energy driven particles overcomes an energy barrier to adopt one of two more ordered states, each emitting low grade heat in the process, the one that emits the most heat, or falls to the lower internal energy state, will be thermodynamically favored. This favored state will be predisposed to dissipate more of the external driving energy and thus undergo further transitions to even more ordered states.

Life does NOT go from Chaos to order. Genetic information is lost over time, information is not gained or created though mistakes, errors and mutations.

This is patently untrue - even creatures with the simplest genomes are still around after billions of years and uncountable generations, and the most complex genomes (e.g. mammals), that one would expect to be most susceptible to such degradation, are still going strong, and have become ever more advanced over time (although at the expense of the overwhelming majority).

Have you seen what radioactivity does to a tomatos? They are selling gages now so people can see how radioactive their veggies are. Contrary to popular belief you can not create teenage mutant turtles with radioactive material.

Did you not see my post #788 ?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Now, about the percentage of mutations that are considered as beneficial.

Post #788 might give you some idea.

 

[SteveB28]

Evolution is a Latin word that has been around a long time. It currently has been kidnapped by the infidels and they are holding it hostage but sooner or later they will release it and we can go back to a proper understanding of just what the word evolution means. They want to rewrite the dictionary but this will all be shortly lived.

And one of those "infidels" would be your idol, Francis Collins.....?

EDIT: Apologies DogmaHunter, I see you have already made the same point.

 

[SteveB28]

Then evolutionism isn't science, because they need to believe the opposite happened naturally.

Gestation mustn't be "science" either, according to this warped view....because in the span of just 9 or 10 months, we witness a relatively simple single cell increasing its complexity quite considerably.....!

Idiotic nonsense..........



.

 

[Speedwell]

This is patently untrue - even creatures with the simplest genomes are still around after billions of years and uncountable generations, and the most complex genomes (e.g. mammals), that one would expect to be most susceptible to such degradation, are still going strong, and have become ever more advanced over time (although at the expense of the overwhelming majority).

I have always thought that one of the strongest proofs of evolution is that a species in a stable environment will remain stable and thriving for a long period of time.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Let me tell you a story of an event that had a very profound effect on my life....

How does the fact that houses wear out prove that all things wear out? If this is true, then babies would not get bigger and stronger. Sick bodies would not heal themselves. A trapped dog would not figure out a way to get out. Diamonds and oil would not form underground. There are many instances of things getting better. Not everything is wearing out. As I said, the law of entropy always increasing does not apply to open systems with a flow of energy. They can indeed have a decrease in entropy.

The suggestion that errors, mistakes and mutations builds and creates anything is absurd beyond imagination.

And yet it has been shown many times that mutations do make things better. For instance:

• Mutations have given bacteria the ability to degrade nylon (Prijambada et al. 1995).

• Plant breeders have used mutation breeding to induce mutations and select the beneficial ones (FAO/IAEA 1977).

• Certain mutations in humans confer resistance to AIDS (Dean et al. 1996; Sullivan et al. 2001) or to heart disease (Long 1994; Weisgraber et al. 1983).

• A mutation in humans makes bones strong (Boyden et al. 2002).

• Transposons are common, especially in plants, and help to provide beneficial diversity (Moffat 2000).

• In vitro mutation and selection can be used to evolve substantially improved function of RNA molecules, such as a ribozyme (Wright and Joyce 1997) Source: http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html

Genetic algorithms have been used to do creative design through the process of mutations in the design and natural selction. With enough repetition, computers can use these algorithms to evolve better designs.

 

[DogmaHunter]

So it is indeed YOU that "insistence on misrepresenting his statements".

Dude.......

No matter what "sprititual" dimensions he religiously adds to reality, the fact remains that he accepts the mainstream scientific theories concerning biology.

You know... the very same mainstream theories that you are arguing against non-stop.
With your "mutation theory" nonsense and whatnot...

 

[doubtingmerle]

IF you read what Collins says you will see that God had a plan from the beginning. What part of the word "plan" are you having trouble understanding?

Collins seems to be conflicted on the purpose of the universe. On the one hand he sees mindless forces doing whatever the laws of physics direct, and on the other hand he sees the hand of God working out his plan. He sees both as doing the same thing. It's not unlike the view I took of life when I was a Christian. I had been taught that all things work together for good, that God had a purpose in everything that happened to me. But I also was learning that storms were caused by the mindless forces of nature that had no knowledge that I was planning a picnic that day. So if it rained on my picnic, was that the mindless interactions in the atmosphere causing a storm, or was it God working on my character? My answer was "yes", it was both. And so I persuaded myself that God had a purpose behind everything that happened in my life, which just so happened to be the same thing as was happening due to the purposeless forces of nature. But it became hard to believe that cold fronts were acting as they did based on God's plan for me, or that others were treating me in a certain way because of God's ultimate purpose for me, rather than that the people were choosing that on their own. Eventually I saw that the events that were happening to me were not really from God, but that this is just the way the world works. Mindless forces and other people do things, and that is that. God isn't micromanaging any of this.

I can see Collins's conflict, similar to the one I had, in the quote you give below:

According to Collins: "If God is real, and I believe he is, then he is outside of nature. He is, therefore, not limited by the laws of nature in the way that we are. He's not limited by time. In the very moment of that flash in which the universe was created, an unimaginable burst of energy, God also had the plan of how that would coalesce into stars and galaxies, planets, and how life would arrive on a small planet near the outer rim of a spiral galaxy. And ultimately, over hundreds of millions of years, give rise to creatures with intelligence and in whom he could infuse this search for him and this knowledge of good and evil. And all of that happened in his mind in the blink of an eye. While it may seem to us that this whole process has the risk of randomness and, therefore, an unpredictable outcome, that was not the case for God."
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/news/scien...cientific-adventures.aspx#uc1uUfhxiGIPZ4qD.99 [emphasis yours]

Many Christians resolve it with two compartments. On Monday through Saturday we are dealing with random forces of nature and actions of others, and do our job to make the most of it. On Sunday, we are dealing with a divine purpose in all of this, and forget it is all random forces. That works for some, but my mind doesn't like the resulting dissonance.

But anyway, we bring up Collins because he is a Christian that has a strong belief in the evolution of all modern life from a single common ancestor of all over a process of millions of years. And in his workday world, in which he studies the human genome, he sees how "random" mutations have affected that genome for years. On that, Collins and I agree.

And that is the topic of this thread. Did mutations and natural selection, acting through millions of year, produce us?

 

[joshua 1 9]

But I also was learning that storms were caused by the mindless forces of nature that had no knowledge that I was planning a picnic that day.

The weather is caused by the fact that the Earth and the Moon are duel planets. The difference between the temperature at the polls and the equator is 50 degrees. So the air and the water is working to balance that out. The warm air and water is drawn to the north. As the cold air and water moves south. This year the Gulf was exceptionally warm and that had quite an impact on the weather that we had this summer. We have a little control over the weather as Christians when we pray. Jesus was able to calm the storm. If we did not have the moon then the planet would be a lot more stable and we would not have the weather patterns that we have.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Dude.......

No matter what "sprititual" dimensions he religiously adds to reality, the fact remains that he accepts the mainstream scientific theories concerning biology.

You know... the very same mainstream theories that you are arguing against non-stop.
With your "mutation theory" nonsense and whatnot...

That is your understanding of the situation. Of course it is pretty obvious that I see things different than you do.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That is your understanding of the situation.

No. That's rather straight from the horse's mouth. Read my signature. Specifically the "by natural processes" part.

Of course it is pretty obvious that I see things different than you do.

Obviously.

 

[sfs]

Last I recll...I'm still here.

I didn't say you'd left. You just gave up any effort explaining where low frequency genetic variants come from.

Now, about the percentage of mutations that are considered as beneficial.

What about it? Do you have problems with the estimate I gave you?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Did you know that we have used radiation to cause random mutations in at least 3,000 crop plants to generate new varieties? They go through around 10,000 to one million mutants to select the right one. That gave us red grapefruit, varieties of rice, wheat, barley, pears, peas, cotton, peppermint, sunflowers, peanuts, sesame, bananas, cassava, sorghum, and disease-resistant cocoa. The mutant wheat is used for bread and pasta and the mutant barley for beer and fine whiskey. It's called mutation breeding (mutagenesis), and these days it's relatively easy to see where in the genome the mutations have occurred and even discover how they take effect.

Radiation causes the same kind of mutations in the natural world too, although in a less controlled way.

GM Crops are banned in 38 countries. Why do you suppose people do not believe that these mutated foods are good for them?

 

[Ricardo Rademacher]

"Why do you suppose people do not believe that these mutated foods are good for them?"

Simple science: more science confirms that it's safe than unsafe.
Simple expertise: more people with actual experience in genetics confirm is safe than people with no experience.
Simple experiments: 30 years into using GMO's and not a single satistically proven GMO related death or mutation.
Simple humanity: Anti-GMO is a cult-of-personality where one persons results are automatically accepted; GMO is the collaborate effort of thousands of people, who's individual opinions on the matter gets standardized by the flow of data.

In short, majority always wins; minority always butt-hurts.

 

[Ricardo Rademacher]

The weather is caused by the fact that the Earth and the Moon are duel planets. The difference between the temperature at the polls and the equator is 50 degrees. So the air and the water is working to balance that out. The warm air and water is drawn to the north. As the cold air and water moves south. This year the Gulf was exceptionally warm and that had quite an impact on the weather that we had this summer. We have a little control over the weather as Christians when we pray. Jesus was able to calm the storm. If we did not have the moon then the planet would be a lot more stable and we would not have the weather patterns that we have.

1) "he weather is caused by the fact that"
FALSE: Google "weather definition"
Weather is caused by local conditions; Climate is cause by global conditions; the moon has no direct effect on either but the tides.

2) "Earth and the Moon are duel planets"
FALSE: google "planet vs. moon"
One is a planet, one is a moon; a moon is not a planet in the same way that your father is not also your child.

3) "If we did not have the moon then the planet would be a lot more stable"
FALSE: google "moons role in earth stability".
The moon actually stabilizes the earth's tilt.

4) "we would not have the weather patterns that we have"
FALSE: Google "weather patterns"
Weather patterns have no connection to moon patterns; if they did, the entire earth would have the same weather all the time!!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

GM Crops are banned in 38 countries. Why do you suppose people do not believe that these mutated foods are good for them?

Ignorance, the rumour mill, conspiracy theories, a pervading sense of loss of control and influence, etc; but mainly ignorance. And are you sure that ban applies to mutation breeding? Are red grapefruit, disease-resistant cocoa, and those wheat and barley varieties banned in 38 countries?

We've been genetically modifying foods for thousands of years, and nature has been doing it for millions - how do you think our modern food crops came to be the way they are?

But what people think about them is irrelevant to the point at issue; the fact is that radiation-induced mutations have been used to produce crops that have selected benefits over the originals - including being hardier for particular environments. The majority of mutations are neutral, some are detrimental, and some are beneficial. Only the beneficial ones are selected. The selected mutants are not degraded, sicklier, or weaker as you suggested.

 

[joshua 1 9]

FALSE: google "moons role in earth stability".
The moon actually stabilizes the earth's tilt.

You the first person to falsify yourself. I do not write books on here, I just use shorthand and very brief posts. Then if people want to go into more detail as you seem to want to, then that is fine.

Weather patterns have no connection to moon patterns

The point is we have the weather we have because of the tilt of the earth in relation to the sun. If it were not for the tilt of the earth then we would not have seasons. " Seasons result from the yearly orbit of the Earth around the Sun and the tilt of the Earth's rotational axis relative to the plane of the orbit" wiki

 

[joshua 1 9]

the fact is that radiation-induced mutations have been used to produce crops that have selected benefits over the originals

Cost efficient is not the same a beneficial. Most of the food in America is processed and is harmful to your health.