"Life and its building blocks are way too complicated to have evolved." [moved]

[DogmaHunter]

Then evolutionism isn't science, because they need to believe the opposite happened naturally.

Ow goody.... the "entropy so evolution is false" argument........

You know, the argument that even the most hardcore creationist sites tell their followers NOT TO USE, on the account of it being insanely false and ridiculous.

Here's a piece of advice for you...
Go out, look up. See that giant ball of nuclear infurnus? It provides the earth with workable energy 24/7.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Me: Specific mutation in SLC24A5, called A111T, is found in virtually everyone of European ancestry.

"The NCKX5 protein is a member of the potassium-dependent sodium/calcium exchanger family. Sequence variation in the SLC24A5 gene, particularly a non-synonymous SNP changing the amino acid at position 111 in NCKX5 from alanine to threonine, has been associated with differences in skin pigmentation" (Wiki)

We both agree that: "changing the amino acid at position 111 in NCKX5 from alanine to threonine" can have an effect on the skin pigmentation. You claim this is a mistake or error and I say that God planned this from the beginning of the Universe back at the Big Bang. Even Collins suggest that God knew from the beginning everything He was going to do, even if we do not understand all the mechanisms involved in that. End of story.

(The following is rambling) We have black and white or pigment and no pigment. We have people with red hair and people with blond hair with or without black or brown pigment. We have fair skinned people with freckles. These are variations in God's design. Now they say that each individual has a unique set of proteins in their hair that is as good as a finger print to identify them.

The main thing is that God has all of this under His control and He will cause good to come out of everything that happens.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Then evolutionism isn't science, because they need to believe the opposite happened naturally.

Evolution is a Latin word that has been around a long time. It currently has been kidnapped by the infidels and they are holding it hostage but sooner or later they will release it and we can go back to a proper understanding of just what the word evolution means. They want to rewrite the dictionary but this will all be shortly lived.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Go out, look up. See that giant ball of nuclear infurnus? It provides the earth with workable energy 24/7.

Yet you can not tell me for sure what came first the Earth or the Sun?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Evolution is a Latin word that has been around a long time. It currently has been kidnapped by the infidels and they are holding it hostage

"infidels", like Francis Collins?

They want to rewrite the dictionary but this will all be shortly lived.

Words mean different things in different context.

When you are done with the semantics and are ready to get back to topic.... have at it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yet you can not tell me for sure what came first the Earth or the Sun?

LOL!

I bet Francis Collins can.

 

[joshua 1 9]

"Over time mutations in DNA can cause novel features, as we noted earlier, like feathers from scales or eyes from light sensitive pigment. These mutations in the DNA subtly favor certain features, although they appear to develop randomly. The process, however, is not a random process, nor should it be described a purposeless...................

........................... In the event that the process, over many generations, finds a way to do this with the right mutation, that mutation will confer a great advantage on the offspring who inherit it."

link

It seems not everyone agrees.

IF you read what Collins says you will see that God had a plan from the beginning. What part of the word "plan" are you having trouble understanding?

Rev22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Isaiah 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' "

According to Collins: "If God is real, and I believe he is, then he is outside of nature. He is, therefore, not limited by the laws of nature in the way that we are. He's not limited by time. In the very moment of that flash in which the universe was created, an unimaginable burst of energy, God also had the plan of how that would coalesce into stars and galaxies, planets, and how life would arrive on a small planet near the outer rim of a spiral galaxy. And ultimately, over hundreds of millions of years, give rise to creatures with intelligence and in whom he could infuse this search for him and this knowledge of good and evil. And all of that happened in his mind in the blink of an eye. While it may seem to us that this whole process has the risk of randomness and, therefore, an unpredictable outcome, that was not the case for God."
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/news/scien...cientific-adventures.aspx#uc1uUfhxiGIPZ4qD.99

 

[joshua 1 9]

LOL!

I bet Francis Collins can.

Carl Sagan tells us that the earth was created inside of a sun. Yet our Earth and Sun were created at about the same time. It is difficult to say exactly when because creation is a process that takes place over time. In the beginning God said or God made then at the end of the day God will look and see that everything was good.

 

[DogmaHunter]

IF you read what Collins says you will see that God had a plan from the beginning. What part of the word "plan" are you having trouble understanding?

Rev22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Isaiah 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' "

According to Collins: "If God is real, and I believe he is, then he is outside of nature. He is, therefore, not limited by the laws of nature in the way that we are. He's not limited by time. In the very moment of that flash in which the universe was created, an unimaginable burst of energy, God also had the plan of how that would coalesce into stars and galaxies, planets, and how life would arrive on a small planet near the outer rim of a spiral galaxy. And ultimately, over hundreds of millions of years, give rise to creatures with intelligence and in whom he could infuse this search for him and this knowledge of good and evil. And all of that happened in his mind in the blink of an eye. While it may seem to us that this whole process has the risk of randomness and, therefore, an unpredictable outcome, that was not the case for God."
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/news/scien...cientific-adventures.aspx#uc1uUfhxiGIPZ4qD.99

In other words....

Francis Collins accepts mainstream science and just posists his god as the source of the big bang, having control over initial conditions of a space-time continuum ruled by deterministic forces of nature.

Look at my signature to see how he feels about evolution (which is the mainstream version of the theory: mutation, natural selection, etc).

ie: no eden, no adam and eve, no global flood, no physically impossible boat with pairs of animals, etc.

Your continued insistence on misrepresenting his statements is actually a bit of a motivation to get the dude to post here. If only I wasn't so lazy...

But it sure would be interesting to see how you would enter into a debate with him, trying to tell him what he REALLY means instead of what he thinks he means.

 

[joshua 1 9]

When you are done with the semantics and are ready to get back to topic.... have at it.

My son just handed me his Chemistry book and told me to read it so I will see what I can do. It is rented so he is going to have to turn it back in again.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Carl Sagan tells us that the earth was created inside of a sun.

You even managed to misunderstand Carl Sagan, eventhough he does his best to bring science in laymen's terms.

No. Certain atoms are created inside stars (plural - not just one).

The atoms in your left hand probably come from a star lightyears away from the star that produced some of the atoms in your right hand.

Yet our Earth and Sun were created at about the same time.

No, they weren't.

First the sun formed and the planets formed afterwards, out of the accretion disc that orbits the newly formed star.

It is difficult to say exactly when

The earth form some 4.5 billion years ago. The sun a bit earlier ("bit" on cosmological scales, off course).

because creation is a process that takes place over time.

You can measure the age of the earth.

In the beginning God said or God made then at the end of the day God will look and see that everything was good.

Unless this god is gravity, he had nothing to do with formation of the solar system.

 

[sfs]

Your continued insistence on misrepresenting his statements is actually a bit of a motivation to get the dude to post here. If only I wasn't so lazy...

He won't post here while he's director of the NIH. He withdrew from BioLogos when he became director.

 

[Jimmy D]

You claim this is a mistake or error

I don't recall saying that, I believed I said it was a beneficial mutation. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[joshua 1 9]

In other words....

Francis Collins accepts mainstream science and just posists his god as the source of the big bang, having control over initial conditions of a space-time continuum ruled by deterministic forces of nature.

Look at my signature to see how he feels about evolution (which is the mainstream version of the theory: mutation, natural selection, etc).

ie: no eden, no adam and eve, no global flood, no physically impossible boat with pairs of animals, etc.

Your continued insistence on misrepresenting his statements is actually a bit of a motivation to get the dude to post here. If only I wasn't so lazy...

But it sure would be interesting to see how you would enter into a debate with him, trying to tell him what he REALLY means instead of what he thinks he means.

What you are saying is very mixed up and confused and is in no way a reflection of what Collins is saying when he talks about "Universal common descent by natural processes"

Collins exact words are: "the term 'Creationist' has been hijacked." This is exactly the same thing I say. Collins does believe in Adam and Eve and he believes that: "God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology a new kind of consciousness which could say "I" and "me", which could look upon itself as an object..." Actually Collins gets this from Lewis, still he quotes this extensively in his book: "The Language of God". You should read it sometime. So that you do not make the error of misrepresentation of what Collins believes.

I do not try to define what was new about Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago. Collins and Lewis go to a great extent to say that Adam in the Garden of Eden was a new kind of consciousness that could make judgements of truth, beauty and goodness - Adam could perceive time flowing. We are told that Adam and his people wanted to be nouns and eternally must be mere adjectives. Collins says all of this so he can say: "I do not believe that the God who created all of the universe and who communes with all of His people through prayer and spiritual insight, would expect us to deny the obvious truths of the natural world that science has revealed to us, in order to prove our love for Him." This is why he finds Theist Evolution (Biologos) to be scientifically consistent and spiritually satisfying. Science and Faith are two unshakeable pillars holding up a building called truth. He concludes by saying that: "The God of the Bible is the God of the genome. He can be worshiped in the cathedral or in the laboratory".

So it is indeed YOU that "insistence on misrepresenting his statements".

 

[Jimmy D]

IF you read what Collins says you will see that God had a plan from the beginning. What part of the word "plan" are you having trouble understanding?

He's welcome to his opinion and I respect him for it, although I don't agree with it.

I say that God planned this from the beginning of the Universe back at the Big Bang

Great, I wouldn't argue against that, like FC your entitled to your beliefs. Why the need for your crazy argument about 'mutation theory' etc? Either way mutations occured whether you think they're directed by God and appear random or they actually are random, what's the difference apart from your world view?

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't recall saying that, I believed I said it was a beneficial mutation. Don't put words in my mouth.

"beneficial mutation" is an ambiguous term.

 

[joshua 1 9]

What makes you think so?

Let me tell you a story of an event that had a very profound effect on my life. I was living in Salt Lake City working on remodeling a restaurant. Everything was pretty well tore apart and we were putting it back together again. Every now and then a customer would walk in wanting to see what was going on. They would ask when we were going to be finished and we would tell them that the owner wanted the job done by Thanksgiving because they had a free meal they gave out that day to the homeless people. Then someone made a comment about 12 years. I asked him what he was talking about. He said that the average commercial remodel only lasts for 12 years and you have to do it all over again. That comment had an extreme impact on me and I thought about it for a long long time. I could not believe that what I was doing was only going to last for 12 years. Actually I did a remodel on a bakery and that was 30 years ago. So my work does last longer then 12 years but still the point was that what we do is very temporary and starts to decay and deteriorate as soon as we are finished. I have done remodeling and renovation for over 50 years now so I have battled decay and deterioration all of my life. This has a lot to do with WHY I became a Christian. This is why I began to study the idea and the concept of eternity. Everything in the universe has a beginning and the atomic bonds are unstable and they begin to break down from the beginning. The suggestion that errors, mistakes and mutations builds and creates anything is absurd beyond imagination. Things do not build and create themselves, they decompose. Life goes from order to chaos. Life does NOT go from Chaos to order. Genetic information is lost over time, information is not gained or created though mistakes, errors and mutations. Have you seen what radioactivity does to a tomatos? They are selling gages now so people can see how radioactive their veggies are. Contrary to popular belief you can not create teenage mutant turtles with radioactive material.

 

[-57]

The fall is something that science does not take into consideration at all. We know that cold sucks the energy out of hot, the universe goes from order to disorder or entropy. This in and of itself is an argument for God because the universe is required to have an outside force in order for it to work. We do not know that the energy comes from the God of the Bible. But we do know that the system requires an energy outside of the system. We have to build a house the house does not build itself. Then once the house is built it starts to decay. The atoms themselves do not have perfect bonds and they tend to fall about. In fact that is what carbon dating is all about. The deterioration or entropy rate is said to be very consistent and steady.

Some atheist and humanist need to have that explained to them.

 

[-57]

This particular board is open to non-Christians. Maybe you ought to explain it to him.

He knows exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[-57]

And there we see the essence of creationism. Repeat a few slogans, bow out when challenged.

Last I recll...I'm still here.

Now, about the percentage of mutations that are considered as beneficial.