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"Life and its building blocks are way too complicated to have evolved." [moved]

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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Folks, the above conversation I'm having with sfs could have been avoided if I would have used "ye," instead of "you" in an innocent, yet point-making question.

Please consider this conversation in the future if you see anyone harping that "ye" and "you" are archaic terms that should be updated.

Today's English is sloppy and confusing.
 
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-57

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Why not? If you have the complete genome sequence of both parents and the child, then you can identify every single mutation that occurs, since you know the initial and final states of the genome. This kind of study has been done multiple times with similar answers.

A fact that has no bearing on the validity of the estimate. You are at liberty to reject any aspects of reality you don't like. Just don't expect anyone else to care.

As I previously pointed out....you are assuming the last 3 generations...were the same a 100 generations ago.

We know something changed because after the flood the life spans shortened...then after the days of Peleg, they shortened again.

Bottom line...you haven't convinced me your mutation rate is as linear as you say it is. Your model is built on speculation.
 
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-57

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And your appalling ignorance was corrected just a few messages later. I suggest you go back and read. But to summarise.....

1. The point of endogenous retriviral insertion is NOT about any subsequent function. It is about the LOCATION of those insertions. You can't explain that.

2. The second part of your message has nothing to do with endogenous retroviruses. You've included it as a red herring.




.

If you say so. Keep in mind you haven't demonstrated that what you said is what is reality.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Seriously, I wouldn't waste any more time feeding the trolls. I counted at least 15 different alerts from the same individual under my alert tab in under 24 hours, at which point I just ignored them. The fact that some of these atheists come to a Christian forum, obsessively argue their non-Christian point, and obviously have no regard for the Bible, should be a clear enough indicator of a troll. Let's not continue to feed them.

I love someone who has been here for three weeks saying stuff like this about someone who has been here for 13 years. The appeal to the audience at the end was particularly humorous.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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For starters try exploring the 5 alleged extinction events...after you have pondered those with objectivity come back and seek me out for more

"Alleged"? Do you have any evidence that they didn't happen?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Seriously, we are wasting our time here just as much as they are. Their faith is in the theory of evolution. They will never be able to disprove God just as much as we will never be able to scientifically prove God using the same standards.

If you could start addressing the evidence rather than attacking individuals that would be great.
-----------------------------------
- Physiology, embryology and genetics supporting whale evolution
- Diversity of globin genes in modern vertebrates to do whole genome duplication in ancestral population.
- Common ancestry for animals and fungi.
- A hominid skull that none of the Creationists could tell if it was 'fully ape' or 'fully human'.
- Genetic evidence showing that lungfish are the closest sarcopterygian to tetrapods.
- Feathers and hair evolving from scales.
- Image of a series of hominid skulls.
- Homologous genetic section between humans and chimpanzees.
- Photos of three transitional fossils.
- Embryology, and specifically Evolutionary Development.
- ARHGAP11B and human brain evolution.
- The evolution of sexual reproduction in primordial red algae.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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To support the insertion claim one would first have to prove the same type of creature existed first without them and then they are there...show us some early homo-sapien's DNA that does not have them, and then later homo sapiens that have them, and then "insertion" may be an appropriate and accurate term

Actually we can support the insertion because the DNA segments match those of viruses. Also the number of shared viral insertions grow less the further apart the analyzed beings are.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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steveB28....the same is true for MOST of what are called "deletions"....to actually be deletions one would have to show they were formerly a normal presence and now they are not....in most cases (not all, there are a few) this cannot be shown by evidence to be true....yet the belief is swallowed whole....via appeal to authority and argumentum ad populum (two logic fallacies)

Kind of ironic because quite a few professional Creationists base their entire argument on the presence of indels. Tomkins being the most prominent.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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As I previously pointed out....you are assuming the last 3 generations...were the same a 100 generations ago.

You need to provide a reason why mutation rates were different in the past.

We know something changed because after the flood the life spans shortened...then after the days of Peleg, they shortened again.

We know the Flood never happened, so your objection is without merit.

Bottom line...you haven't convinced me your mutation rate is as linear as you say it is. Your model is built on speculation.

I have a feeling nothing would convince you.
 
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SteveB28

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Absolutely not....the reason you are poo pooing this is because there are NO such examples

Incredible.....the wilfull ignorance is almost mind-boggling.

Those remnant insertions are THERE! We can MEASURE them! We can OBSERVE them! They are present! And we know that they are viral insertions, because we still have people/ other animals being infected with retroviruses TODAY! Have you ever heard of HIV, perhaps!?

And, the overarching point here is the LOCATION of those insertions. The human genome has, I believe over 3 billion base pairs in it - a huge variety of locations for these insertions to have placed themselves. We find that there are tens of thousands of these insertions that we share with the other primates......and that they are found in IDENTICAL LOCATIONS IN THE GENOME!

But please, continue to skirt around the gigantic trumpeting elephant occupying your living room.....!
 
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SteveB28

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If you say so. Keep in mind you haven't demonstrated that what you said is what is reality.

Oh, I see......so, it isn't "reality" that every single human has a genome that contains tens of thousands of ancient retroviral insertions? Devoted Christian Francis Collins was lying/mistaken when he released the findings of the Human Genome Project? It isn't "reality that these same insertions are found in chimpanzees? Teams of scientists 'ganged up' to create that illusion? It isnt "reality" that those insertions are found in EXACTLY THE SAME LOCATIONS in the genome!? More fraudulent work by those evil biologists, I guess?

There is only one person out of touch with "reality" in this discussion.......
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Those remnant insertions are THERE! We can MEASURE them! We can OBSERVE them! They are present!
Ah, but we would then let facts, measurements, and observations get in the way of a good story? ;)

Yep. I like facts, measurements, and observations.
 
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pshun2404

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Incredible.....the wilfull ignorance is almost mind-boggling.

Those remnant insertions are THERE! We can MEASURE them! We can OBSERVE them! They are present! And we know that they are viral insertions, because we still have people/ other animals being infected with retroviruses TODAY! Have you ever heard of HIV, perhaps!?

And, the overarching point here is the LOCATION of those insertions. The human genome has, I believe over 3 billion base pairs in it - a huge variety of locations for these insertions to have placed themselves. We find that there are tens of thousands of these insertions that we share with the other primates......and that they are found in IDENTICAL LOCATIONS IN THE GENOME!

But please, continue to skirt around the gigantic trumpeting elephant occupying your living room.....!

Great! Now show some ancient or even quite old sapien genome examples where specific ones are not present and then they are...so we can see they ARE actual insertions....a few comparative examples from the ones shared should suffice.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Great! Now show some ancient or even quite old sapien genome examples where specific ones are not present and then they are...so we can see they ARE actual insertions....a few comparative examples from the ones shared should suffice.

What what part of "they're not human DNA, they are viral DNA" are you having the most trouble?
 
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Gene2memE

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Great! Now show some ancient or even quite old sapien genome examples where specific ones are not present and then they are...so we can see they ARE actual insertions....a few comparative examples from the ones shared should suffice.

Neandertal and Denisovan retroviruses

Lorenzo Agoni, Aaron Golden, Chandan Guha, Jack Lenz

Open Archive DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2012.04.049

Summary:
Modern humans (Homo sapiens) last shared a common ancestor with two types of archaic hominins, Neandertals and Denisovans, roughly 800,000 years ago, and the population leading to modern H. sapiens separated from that leading to Neandertals and Denisovans roughly 400,000 years ago [1–4] . Genome sequences for these two types of archaic hominins have been reported [1,2] . They were determined by sequencing ancient DNAs using techniques that generated many short sequence reads. Here, we analyzed individual sequence reads used to assemble the published Neandertal and Denisovan genomes for insertions of Human Endogenous Retrovirus K (HERV-K) DNA. Virus–host DNA junctions were identified that defined 14 proviruses where modern humans contain the corresponding, empty, preintegration site. Thus, HERV-K reinfected germ lineage cells of Neandertals and Denisovans multiple times, and these events occurred around the time of or subsequent to the divergence of the archaic hominin lineages from that leading to modern humans. One of the proviruses was shared by Neandertals and Denisovans, which is consistent with the hypothesis that these archaic humans shared a common ancestor more recently than they shared one with the lineage leading to modern humans.



HIV infection reveals widespread expansion of novel centromeric human endogenous retroviruses

Rafael Contreras-Galindo, Mark H. Kaplan, Shirley He, Angie C. Contreras-Galindo, Marta J. Gonzalez-Hernandez, Ferdinand Kappes, Derek Dube1, Susana M. Chan, Dan Robinson, Fan Meng, Manhong Dai, Scott D. Gitlin, Arul M. Chinnaiyan, Gilbert S. Omenn and David M. Markovitz

Abstract:
Human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs) make up 8% of the human genome. The HERV-K (HML-2) family is the most recent group of these viruses to have inserted into the genome, and we have detected the activation of HERV-K (HML-2) proviruses in the blood of patients with HIV-1 infection. We report that HIV-1 infection activates expression of a novel HERV-K (HML-2) provirus, termed K111, present in multiple copies in the centromeres of chromosomes throughout the human genome yet not annotated in the most recent human genome assembly. Infection with HIV-1 or stimulation with the HIV-1 Tat protein leads to the activation of K111 proviruses. K111 is present as a single copy in the genome of the chimpanzee, yet K111 is not found in the genomes of other primates. Remarkably, K111 proviruses appear in the genomes of the extinct Neanderthal and Denisovan, while modern humans have at least 100 K111 proviruses spread across the centromeres of 15 chromosomes. Our studies suggest that the progenitor K111 integrated before the Homo-Pan divergence and expanded in copy number during the evolution of hominins, perhaps by recombination. The expansion of K111 provides sequence evidence suggesting that recombination between the centromeres of various chromosomes took place during the evolution of humans. K111 proviruses show significant sequence variations in each individual centromere, which may serve as markers in future efforts to annotate human centromere sequences. Further, this work is an example of the potential to discover previously unknown genomic sequences through the analysis of nucleic acids found in the blood of patients.
 
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SteveB28

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Great! Now show some ancient or even quite old sapien genome examples where specific ones are not present and then they are...so we can see they ARE actual insertions....a few comparative examples from the ones shared should suffice.

Onlookers should now appreciate my earlier question "Are you joking?"..........

That these markers are ancient viral insertions is not in dispute! They are/were viruses! And, unless your Uncle Alf was a virus, you should be able to appreciate the difference between a virus and a human!

That being the case, Gene2memE has nevertheless provided you with the evidence you asked for.

But, it is beside the point. The point, as I have stressed several times now, is not when these infections occurred. It is ALL about the identical locations that they occupy in both the genome of humans and chimpanzees (and a variety of other insertions between humans and other primates)!

And it makes no difference how many times you attempt to hand-wave towards an alternative focus....it is a reality that you cannot escape!

Your only alternative now is to appeal to magic...........your god of choice magically made those locations identical for whatever obscure reason you feel compelled to cook up!



.
 
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DogmaHunter

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We know something changed because after the flood the life spans shortened...then after the days of Peleg, they shortened again.

Confusing mere beliefs with knowledge again, I see.

Bottom line...you haven't convinced me your mutation rate is as linear as you say it is. Your model is built on speculation.

No, it's build on observation.
 
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