Lies about the Sabbath.

Elder 111 said:

If you are not saying that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath what are you saying? If Jesus did not keep the Sabbath then He would be a sinner wouldn't He?.

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Jesus was obligated to keep the 7th day Sabbath as a Jew. Gentiles aren't. Jesus fulfilled the law. That is Jesus met all the requirements of the law. No one else can say or do that.

Elder 111 said:

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So God gave a pathetic law?We have a pathetic God? Lev. 19: 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
God who seems to be pathetic have given the ten Commandments and also said that we should love our neightbour. So how can they be separated now?
Can't comprehend? It is simple, the contention that Jesus gave a new commandment or replaced the Ten with two is a lie. The same lave your neightbour and love God with all your heat always existed. Look carefully and you will see that Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandments, it was already known. The passage I have quoted and Deut. 11:13 record them.
My point there is that the Ten commandments could not have been replaced by them, the coexisted.

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Then the Gospels are a lie. Either Jesus or the authors lied. This invalidates the New Testament. You must be truly happy about this.

Elder 111 said:

If you are not saying that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath what are you saying?

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What we are repeating is Christianity's long-standing doctrine on Sabbath Keeping: It is an utterly dead, worthless and obsolete custom of Judaism that was given solely to the Jews and never has had, nor never will have ANYTHING do with Gentiles, let alone Christianity. In fact, Christianity has rightly and adamantly condemned the practice as being unbiblical and totally incompatible with Grace and the New Covenant. Christianity has determined from its birth that Sabbath Keepers are NOT Christians who should be vigorously expelled and excommunicated to prevent their vile heresy from infecting gullible Christians. "Excommunicating" = "Quarantining." That has been Christianity's position for 2,000 years.

Have I made myself clear?

Elder 111 said:

If Jesus did not keep the Sabbath then He would be a sinner wouldn't He?.

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Jesus broke the Sabbath over and over again! He did so with impunity, because it was and is NOT a moral law; and since it was HIS Sabbath that was designed ONLY as a ceremony strictly limited to pointing to HIM, it was right and proper for him to condemn it as now the worthless, useless and obsolete ordinance that it had become, as a result of his first suck of oxygen at birth. He fulfilled the stupid and silly ceremony simply by existing. He was operating under a higher and greater Law: ushering in the New Covenant. Keeping the Sabbath would have actually been a SIN, versus his willful breaking of it in order to heal people. There is no question that telling the cripple: "Gather up your mattress and walk" was a violation of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was commanded to the Israelites to distinguish them from all other nations. The Greeks found that irrational habit of Judaism despicable and stupid. It is not reported how the Greeks reacted to Jesus's willful Sabbath Breaking, but I can assume their robust appetite for Baklava and Spanakopita continued, and no Greek woke in the night with a sudden hankering for bagels and Lox as a result of Jesus's Sabbath breaking. Conversely, after Jesus ordered the cripple to pick up his mattress and walk, he never suddenly began thinking of himself as a Greek, a Chinese person, or a Roman Gladiator, so the Sabbath continued in its effectiveness in serving its intended purpose.

His open and brazen breaking of the Sabbath has no more to do with "sinning" than if he had broken any other archaic Old Testament custom. For Jesus, "breaking the Sabbath" was of no more importance than digging a latrine and using it within city limits, planting radishes and carrots together, wearing a wool sweater over a cotton t-shirt, or advising someone that it was okay to have sex with their menstruating wife.

THAT'S how "important" his willful and open "violation" of the Sabbath was. What, you think I am supposed to be intimidated or impressed that you have decided, in opposition to 2,000 years of Christian history, that the Sabbath is a "moral" Law? Because a 13-year old Methodist girl had a rock thrown at her forehead , and woke out of a coma thinking that she was a Jew?

Neither Christianity or I have ever thought of the Sabbath as a Moral Law. Therefore, breaking it is not a sin, especially for Christians.

Have I made myself clear?

Elder 111 said:

Your teology is flawed. We are not asked to rest with Jesus in heaven eternally. We are asked to cease from work on the seventh day. Your bible says that.

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No, the Bible doesn't say that regarding either the Gentile nations nor the adopted redeemed children of God. This is a fallacy you've conjured all on your own.
We have entered into God's rest the Sabbath didn't provide during its tenure. You can't embrace the shadow and the reality that are mutually exclusive.

Elder 111 said:

If you are not saying that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath what are you saying? If Jesus did not keep the Sabbath then He would be a sinner wouldn't He?.

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This illustrates the Adventist concept of Jesus. They regard Him as a natural child of Israel, without preexisting Divinity, who "sinned" via a transgression of an ordinance clearly outside its limited jurisdiction.

Tell me, Who does Scripture refer to as existing before a body was prepared for Him?

Elder 111 said:

If you are not saying that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath what are you saying? If Jesus did not keep the Sabbath then He would be a sinner wouldn't He?.

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Not saying He did not keep it as a youth. It seems reasonable that those commanded had to keep the sabbath not the creator.
Waiting for you to show 1 text, just 1. The fact that Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath made Him High Preist and therefore not subjected to the Sabbath. All we read about is Christ working or allowing His apostles to work on the sabbath.

Cribstyl said:

Not saying He did not keep it as a youth. It seems reasonable that those commanded had to keep the Sabbath not the creator.
Waiting for you to show 1 text, just 1. The fact that Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath made Him High Priest and therefore not subjected to the Sabbath. All we read about is Christ working or allowing His apostles to work on the Sabbath.

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Curiously, the Pharisees openly and repeatedly accused Jesus of Sabbath Breaking. Yet he NEVER rebutted that charge.

He just went on breaking it, like he owned it or something.

You have to have a head-injured, third grade-educated ex-Methodist translating the Bible for you in order to avoid understanding that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath over and over and over again.

LarryP2 said:

Curiously, the Pharisees openly and repeatedly accused Jesus of Sabbath Breaking. Yet he NEVER rebutted that charge.

He just went on breaking it, like he owned it or something.

You have to have a head-injured, third grade-educated ex-Methodist translating the Bible for you in order to avoid understanding that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath over and over and over again.

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In actuality it matters not if Jesus kept or broke the Sabbath or not what truly matters is if Jesus ever commanded anyone following him to keep the Sabbath AND if those who were to teach Gentile converts to Christianity that keeping the Sabbath is a must. Jesus properly keeping the Sabbath only proves that he indeed was a Jew and bound to Mosaic Law it means NOTHING to what binds Gentile followers who by the Jews corporate rejection of Jesus have essentially banned Christianity from their temple system making it impossible for Christians to partake properly of the Mosaic Law and thus unable to keep the Sabbath. It matters less that the first believers were Jews because at times even they were thrown out and punished for their Christian beliefs by those who were in charge of the temples. In other words there really is no precedent to mix Mosaic Law and Christianity without bending AND breaking the Mosaic Law and possibly rejecting what Christianity is about in the first place. We don't see Jesus saying believe in me and keep the Sabbath and you will be saved do we? There is no condition in salvation stated by him OR any Apostle in the New Testament that implies on any level that one MUST do ANYTHING other than accept by Faith..... Jesus. When you add the Sabbath into the mix you will have Paul on your case saying you are essentially trying to circumcise gentiles that in turn gets James and Peter on your case at the Council of Jerusalem.
One has to chase ghosts and claim they are real plus make up lies to prop up claims the Sabbath is for Gentiles to keep. Arguments from silence are worthless when when we have scripture like this:

Acts 16:30-32

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
The Jailer Converted

31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of [a]the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.


I see NO mention of doing ANYTHING else here but BELIEVING... NO KEEPINGs here at all going on.

Elder 111 said:

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So God gave a pathetic law?We have a pathetic God? Lev. 19: 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
God who seems to be pathetic have given the ten Commandments and also said that we should love our neightbour. So how can they be separated now?
Can't comprehend? It is simple, the contention that Jesus gave a new commandment or replaced the Ten with two is a lie. The same lave your neightbour and love God with all your heat always existed. Look carefully and you will see that Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandments, it was already known. The passage I have quoted and Deut. 11:13 record them.
My point there is that the Ten commandments could not have been replaced by them, theY coexisted.

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First of all, SDA dont want to recognized that; what God said is the covenant is written in Deut 5. What is said before and after quoting the 10 commandments is posted below...
Deu 5:2
The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS are(Deut 5:6-21)
Deu 5:22
¶ These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

As SDA would say, "He wrote them with his finger".
He added no more commandments to these 10 commandments which are also known as the covenant, the tables of the testimonies and other names.

There are over 600 commandments in the law.

Elder 111 said:

Your tHeology is flawed. We are not asked to rest with Jesus in heaven eternally. We are asked to cease from work on the seventh day. Your bible says that.

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Say what???
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Now show us where the bible says that Christians are to cease from work on the seventh day??? (I dont expect a direct response)

Cribstyl said:

Say what???
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Now show us where the bible says that Christians are to cease from work on the seventh day??? (I dont expect a direct response)

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This shows you are now a veteran here when you realize asking for honest answers when dealing with most SDAs is harder than trying to pull teeth on a hippo. I've never been given proof gentiles were told to keep the Sabbath. The best they can offer is that Gentiles gathered near the temple on the Sabbath so they must have been there to keep the Sabbath to which I reply if a dog showed up there it too must also be keeping the Sabbath by the same logic.

Sophrosyne said:

This shows you are now a veteran here when you realize asking for honest answers when dealing with most SDAs is harder than trying to pull teeth on a hippo.

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They are taught to be very very slippery and never give a straight answer. A straight answer always begins the swift and certain annihilation of one of their doctrines.

Sophrosyne said:

I've never been given proof gentiles were told to keep the Sabbath

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I've even made it easier on them: Leaving aside whether any Gentiles were told to keep the Sabbath (they were prohibited from keeping it), I had merely asked for proof from the bible that one ever did.

No response.

Sophrosyne said:

The best they can offer is that Gentiles gathered near the temple on the Sabbath

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That was their busiest day of the week for business.

Sophrosyne said:

so they must have been there to keep the Sabbath to which I reply if a dog showed up there it too must also be keeping the Sabbath by the same logic.

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Dogs would do far less business on the Sabbath than a Gentile would have.

LarryP2 said:

Dogs would do far less business on the Sabbath than a Gentile would have.

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Dogs would keep the Sabbath BETTER than they have

Elder 111 said:

What seventh day Sabbath? According to others the seventh day and the Sabbath are not the same. You need to check with VictorC.
I am glad to see that you have stated that fulfill means to carry out and not abolished.
Is Jesus not our example? So should we not do as He did?

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VictorC reminds Elder111 of the many posts he has ignored. I opened the Bible for you to see that the seventh day God rested preceded the Sabbath 'made for man' thousands of years later. Elder111's contention is with Scripture, and not an individual member of the forum.

Jesus is more than an example; He is our Redeemer, our propitiation, and our Savior - and not an excuse to argue for reversion to the old covenant.