Liberating Motherhood

[benedictaoo]

I'm kind of confused - do men want wives who are totally dependent upon them? I'm just curious, because Meepy's comments suggest that perhaps that is the ideal woman for a man - one who relies on him to support her (among other things). Do men only feel loved if they feel secure that a woman needs them to live?

Seems that way to me and if she is then he will feel bad for her and not leave her.

healthy marriage? Yeah, right. A marriage like that is a train wreck waiting to happen.

 

[benedictaoo]

I like the way how in Meepy and Solomon's world, all divorces are instigated by the woman. Husbands never leave the wife, its always the duplicitous ungrateful woman running off with the man's hard earned cash.

Am I out of line in suspecting that a harsh divorce settlement migh loom large in certain poster's personal backgrounds?

lol

 

[Blackwater Babe]

I'm kind of confused - do men want wives who are totally dependent upon them? I'm just curious, because Meepy's comments suggest that perhaps that is the ideal woman for a man - one who relies on him to support her (among other things). Do men only feel loved if they feel secure that a woman needs them to live?

All goes to insecurity.

If you have a woman who wants an equal partnership, there's nothing to stop her leaving. No, y7ou need to keep a woman subserviant, with no career or education prospects, and keep her on an allowance, so you know she'll never leave. And that way, knowing your completely safe in the relationship, you can let your guard down and let the love flow. Thats how it works, right? If only these ungrateful women would realise that these chivalrous men want to deny them any sort of self determination or independence for their own good, so they can have a genuine loving relationship...

I think I'm going to be sick.

 

[benedictaoo]

This emancipation in their ideas must be threefold, in the ruling of the domestic society, in the administration of family affairs and in the rearing of the children. It must be social, economic, physiological: - physiological, that is to say, the woman is to be freed at her own good pleasure from the burdensome duties properly belonging to a wife as companion and mother (We have already said that this is not an emancipation but a crime); social, inasmuch as the wife being freed from the cares of children and family, should, to the neglect of these, be able to follow her own bent and devote herself to business and even public affairs; finally economic, whereby the woman even without the knowledge and against the wish of her husband may be at liberty to conduct and administer her own affairs, giving her attention chiefly to these rather than to children, husband and family. - Pope Pius XI "On Christian Marriage"

Pope Pius XI not only condemns the ideal of putting work over motherhood, but calls it an actual crime.


Women, again, are not suited for certain occupations; a woman is by nature fitted for home-work, and it is that which is best adapted at once to preserve her modesty and to promote the good bringing up of children and the well-being of the family. As a general principle it may be laid down that a workman ought to have leisure and rest proportionate to the wear and tear of his strength, for waste of strength must be repaired by cessation from hard work. - Pope Leo XIII 'Rerum Novarum'



Mothers, concentrating on household duties, should work primarily in the home or in its immediate vicinity. It is an intolerable abuse, and to be abolished at all cost, for mothers on account of the father's low wage to be forced to engage in gainful occupations outside the home to the neglect of their proper cares and duties, especially the training of children. Every effort must therefore be made that fathers of families receive a wage large enough to meet ordinary family needs adequately. But if this cannot always be done under existing circumstances, social justice demands that changes be introduced as soon as possible whereby such a wage will be assured to every adult workingman. It will not be out of place here to render merited praise to all, who with a wise and useful purpose, have tried and tested various ways of adjusting the pay for work to family burdens in such a way that, as these increase, the former may be raised and indeed, if the contingency arises, there may be enough to meet extraordinary needs. - Pope Pius XI "quadragesimo anno"

Where did she say she will put it OVER being a mother?

A few days a week part time is really putting work first? Really? and did you get the part where the husband does not want to work full time either so they BOTH can parent and enjoy their children?

Yeah, that really a bad thing.

 

[benedictaoo]

Meepy - Pope Pius XI died in 1939. Society has changed since then. As I told you before, my boyfriend actually wants to spend time with the kids when we have them and we couldn't afford running a household on one income. I have a valuable job and I feel I would be a better mom if I got out of the house a couple of days a week when my boyfriend would take over.

I fail to see how that makes us bad people.

Anti- It sounds like a great plan. I hope this guy is the one or you and its a life realized.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Fearing what would happen if a woman's husband left her is a legitimate fear these days. If she stays at home and does not work, and then the husband leaves her and leaves the kids with her... what is she supposed to do? Her job skills would be far outdated and her children would need most of her time. She would have nothing, and it would be a hard road to try and support a family by herself. It is a scary thought. And then the man, of course, gets to keep his income, find a new bachelor pad, and go back into the dating world.

Obviously women leave their husbands, too, but if they had no current job skills and had no income of their own... that would be devastating, especially in an abuse situation where you literally have to start from scratch.

 

[benedictaoo]

I am deeply resentful of all the women here, save Brikkz, who have been accusing me of saying things I never said, interpreting me as saying something that I never said or meant, making ludicrous assertions about what I might actually mean instead of taking the plain meaning of the words, and constantly assuming that I mean something other than what was written, not even bothering to read the links I provided that would explain where I am coming from.

I am not dealing with stupid or illeterate people. That cannot be the explanation.

The best explanation for such mean and spiteful people and such hatred toward me is that you are in a hell of a lot of pain—a hellish existence.

Solomon, I'm not mad at you and I like you, I always did and I still do. You can be hypersensitive and you can really be mean at times but I'm not letting this effect me. You called me all kind of names but I'm not mad about it.

If you feel ganged up on or if you have been taken out of context, I apologise but I feel you are not getting my point.

My only point is, this 'role' of motherhood can be a lot on a women and she should have ppl around her who care about her and not want her to give some much where she actually harms herself.

and next, I'm sorry, but a women should be able to take care of herslef financially if the marriage fails.

and so many things effect a marriage, we can't really say that if the women played her role the marriage would never have failed.

 

[benedictaoo]

That was one of the main reasons why I posted my minimum wage OP. That men with families should receive a living family wage that is based on the basic family needs(food, children, wife, shelter, heat, health, etc)

It is an injustice for a mother to have to go out and work while she has kids to take care of because the father does not earn enough to support them. That's why the Church supports a living family wage. It is an injustice where a mother is forced to work without any choice and has to leave their children alone. That is also why Pope John Paul II, in my other OP, brought up the ideal of society and government helping stay as home mothers.

The feminist movement has really hurt the stay at home mother. Economically, spiritually, and family wise. They also hurt a large number of men with families by flooding the work market, which lowered wages and overflowed job positions

And Pope Pius XI words are just as important then as they are now. It is almost as if he predicted what would happen in that encyclical later on. Its very prophetic.

what he makes is irrelevant-

If she never worked in her life and she 45 and he leaves or if she leaves, who cares? She should be able to get a job and care for her own self... you disagree?

 

[BAFRIEND]

i am reading in the news about an awful lot of women these days who are killing their children

and in the end they get the sympathy not the dead kids, take that lady who just shot and killed her two beautiful children- in short order the discussion went to the role the father played in this; and he is overseas on military commitment !!

but it must be that evil fathers fault mustntit ?-

in a way that reverse accusation should be insulting to women

take that lady who drowned her half dozen kids in the bathtub- is she in prison today ? if the father had done that he would have gotten the death penalty and would probably be dead by now no matter what the excuse or meds was involved

 

[benedictaoo]

Are you trying to make sense or not?

You presented the cliché of women needing a man like a fish needs a bicycle and not being open to life as one issue, as basically the same thing. I see it as two issues. Maybe this is not what you meant. If it's not, then please be clearer.

I don't know what the test tube babies have to do with it, so if you explained that, too, I'd be grateful.

You want to know what I think? Men are jealous becuase a women these days can have a baby with out a man- well they need sperm but not the actual man... but men- he is who NEEDS a women and I think men don't like needing a women.

They want women to need them in order to make them feel like a man.

DISCLAIMER: NO. It do not agree with or believe in women who have babies with no man. I think thats wrong and messed up. I believe in marriage and kids with in marriage, not outside of. I believe we need men to have babies. We should not be having them with out them... but we can and I think that is what has men upset.

 

[benedictaoo]

All goes to insecurity.

If you have a woman who wants an equal partnership, there's nothing to stop her leaving. No, y7ou need to keep a woman subserviant, with no career or education prospects, and keep her on an allowance, so you know she'll never leave. And that way, knowing your completely safe in the relationship, you can let your guard down and let the love flow. Thats how it works, right? If only these ungrateful women would realise that these chivalrous men want to deny them any sort of self determination or independence for their own good, so they can have a genuine loving relationship...

I think I'm going to be sick.

seriously... I've know this to actually happen. The women can be all that and the man will still think she is up to something. Probably because he knows deep down, no one can be happy like that.

It is a very unhealthy marriage when the man is this extreme with the "traditional" role.

Its very Islamic.

 

[benedictaoo]

Fearing what would happen if a woman's husband left her is a legitimate fear these days. If she stays at home and does not work, and then the husband leaves her and leaves the kids with her... what is she supposed to do? Her job skills would be far outdated and her children would need most of her time. She would have nothing, and it would be a hard road to try and support a family by herself. It is a scary thought. And then the man, of course, gets to keep his income, find a new bachelor pad, and go back into the dating world.

Obviously women leave their husbands, too, but if they had no current job skills and had no income of their own... that would be devastating, especially in an abuse situation where you literally have to start from scratch.

and the traditional man- he does not want custody of the kids.. its not manly, kids belong with the women.

I really feel sorry for the kids who grow up with fathers like this.

 

[benedictaoo]

i am reading in the news about an awful lot of women these days who are killing their children

and in the end they get the sympathy not the dead kids, take that lady who just shot and killed her two beautiful children- in short order the discussion went to the role the father played in this; and he is overseas on military commitment !!

but it must be that evil fathers fault mustntit ?-

in a way that reverse accusation should be insulting to women

take that lady who drowned her half dozen kids in the bathtub- is she in prison today ? if the father had done that he would have gotten the death penalty and would probably be dead by now no matter what the excuse or meds was involved

and deep, deep several mental illness and schizophrenia and psychosis is not the reason?

Wow!

But, lets go with you... in all these cases we find behind it all, a man who never lifted a finger to help the woman who was trying to please him and a bunch of kids.

You have no idea how hard a job that is, huh? If you are mentally ill, it can take you to a breaking point.

So if men really do love their children and don't want them dead, they should be willing to care about their wife and see if she is alright and if he can help.

The Texas man- he admitted under oath that he changed maybe one diaper out of the 5 kids they had.

No, men have no part in why a woman may snap.

 

[benedictaoo]

And as far as me needing to get a life. I agree and that is the whole point.

I would like a life other than just taking care of a grown man and children for the last 23 years and there is no end any time soon, maybe another 15 years left to go on that, if I should live that long... and the people I care for, they better hope I do live another 15 years or they will find out they just may have to take care of themselves.

Oh wait- my autistic son, i forgot about him. It will never end.

 

[Rebekka]

I was just unclear how you might want to go about doing the wild thing to make babies, if men are unnecessary.
You know make babies...open to life...
I just wanted a little more information about what you were trying to say.

If you want more information from me, making cryptic remarks is not helpful.

The same women who are feminists may at the same time be open to life... and married. Most feminists are not anti-man. And being open to life or not is not necessarily a feminist issue. One can be open to life and a feminist, open to life and not a feminist, not open to life and a feminist, not open to life and not a feminist. One can even be not open to life and a man.

But I know now that was expecting too much.

I don't think you were expecting too much, but too little.

 

[SolomonVII]

Solomon, I'm not mad at you and I like you, I always did and I still do. You can be hypersensitive and you can really be mean at times but I'm not letting this effect me. You called me all kind of names but I'm not mad about it.

No I never. I dissed Fantine constantly, I gave back in kind what I got from Antigone, I gave the Bronx salute to Globalnomad on her departure, I called Some Backwater Bee a troll, I gave FishnBread and OSRD a few low blows for sure, but you I gave only reps for your expounding of the Catholic faith so well.

That is, until it became clear to me that you were going off the deep end, at which point, I served notice that whatever respect I once had for you was gone.
I thought for a short time that I had misjudged you on that, but you have now disavowed me of that illusion.

Like me?
You don't even know me!
Worst still, after all these years you remain clueless as to what I am even saying!

Like me?!!
You don't even respet me enough to listen to my ideas.

Rather you keep shoving your own agenda in my face, as if I have said something against it!!

If you feel ganged up on or if you have been taken out of context, I apologise but I feel you are not getting my point.

Ganged up pn would be an understatement.

I do get your point. Your life is crap, and that is what you want me to focus upon.
I say, respect me enough to engage in the ideas that I have set forth here,and if not me, then at least Dennis Prager. There is wisdom in those links that may help set you on the right path.

My only point is, this 'role' of motherhood can be a lot on a women and she should have ppl around her who care about her and not want her to give some much where she actually harms herself.

This has nothing to do what anything I said. This is your agenda.

and next, I'm sorry, but a women should be able to take care of herself financially if the marriage fails.

This has nothing to do what anything I said. This is your agenda.

and so many things effect a marriage, we can't really say that if the women played her role the marriage would never have failed.

This has nothing to do what anything I have been saying. This is your agenda.

 

[SolomonVII]

If you want more information from me, making cryptic remarks is not helpful.

The same women who are feminists may at the same time be open to life... and married. Most feminists are not anti-man. And being open to life or not is not necessarily a feminist issue. One can be open to life and a feminist, open to life and not a feminist, not open to life and a feminist, not open to life and not a feminist. One can even be not open to life and a man.


I don't think you were expecting too much, but too little.

I was expecting more than a nevermind when I asked you for more information, that was for sure.

 

[Antigone]

No I never. I dissed Fantine constantly, I gave back in kind what I got from Antigone, I gave the Bronx salute to Globalnomad on her departure, I called Some Backwater Bee a troll, I gave FishnBread and OSRD a few low blows for sure, but you I gave only reps for your expounding of the Catholic faith so well.

Okay, who's accusing who of being rude again?

You didn't give back in kind what you got from me. Your posts lack the spiffy .gifs that mine have when I get tired of your negative assessments of my reading skills.

 

[SolomonVII]

Okay, who's accusing who of being rude again?

You didn't give back in kind what you got from me. Your posts lack the spiffy .gifs that mine have when I get tired of your negative assessments of my reading skills.

No, Rebekka's was the good answer.

It was like pulling teeth mind you, but it basically affirms what I am saying.
Of course, a woman needs a man, if she has any desire of living out her sexual destiny.
The saying "a woman needs a man like... is essentially anti-man, and if anti-man then anti-life. It is a product of feminism, like many things good and bad are a part of feminism, which has redefined our societies.

Feminism does not necessarily mean that one is closed to life.

But to the extent that it defines a woman's happiness within the terms of her being a sexual being, then a woman very much needs a man.
Now going back to Dennis Prager outside of this thread, his anecdotal evidence is that when he asks that question of boys and girls in college or high school settings, it is very easy to get a full show of hands for boys who affirm that they need girls for their happiness. But it is well, like pulling teeth, to get the same affirmation from the girls.

But of course it is commonsensical. To live out one's sexual destiny, in both a the unitive and the procreative aspects, both boys and girls are indeed incomplete without each other. To the extent that sexuality is important to them, they need each other to be truly happy as sexual human beings.

Which would bring us back to the OP. "Motherhood is freedom" is how I restate it. Being open to motherhood brings a girl freedom to be all that she can be. It is the freedom to become complete as a sexual human being.
Really, parenthood is freedom. Just recall Abraham winning the whole world in the lottery, and shrugging that he didn't even have any kids. His freedom was incomplete.
Freedom to what....?

This message is in direct contradiction to the current message of many feminists that freedom from motherhood is freedom, and defines birth control and abortion as the means to arrive at such a freedom.

Any political or church teaching will not win the predonderance of feminist support without acquiescing to those two key points.
Yes Real Women are real feminists too, and many of us conservative neanderthals suprisingly support our wives careers and our daughters future success, but without acquiescing to those two former points, we are on the outs with mainstream feminism.

 

[benedictaoo]

No I never. I dissed Fantine constantly, I gave back in kind what I got from Antigone, I gave the Bronx salute to Globalnomad on her departure, I called Some Backwater Bee a troll, I gave FishnBread and OSRD a few low blows for sure, but you I gave only reps for your expounding of the Catholic faith so well.

That is, until it became clear to me that you were going off the deep end, at which point, I served notice that whatever respect I once had for you was gone.
I thought for a short time that I had misjudged you on that, but you have now disavowed me of that illusion.

Like me?
You don't even know me!
Worst still, after all these years you remain clueless as to what I am even saying!

Like me?!!
You don't even respet me enough to listen to my ideas.

Rather you keep shoving your own agenda in my face, as if I have said something against it!!

well Kay then. I disagree but okay. I still like you though... i do not based a persons position on any given issue on if I can respect them or like them, but what ever. you disrespect me, thats fine.

Ganged up pn would be an understatement.

sorry again, and i mean that.

I do get your point. Your life is crap, and that is what you want me to focus upon.

no, not really, its typical but you do make the point... all i am saying is its not what all the writers have it trumped up to be. it doesn't make it wrong, but don't lead ppl to think its all fun all the time and she is wildly happy because she takes care of a bunch of ppl.

I say, respect me enough to engage in the ideas that I have set forth here,and if not me, then at least Dennis Prager. There is wisdom in those links that may help set you on the right path.

i think i have...and based on lived experience, i have to disagree. i get a woman and a mother and i know its the way we are to live, however, its not freeing and always fulfilling. thats all.

This has nothing to do what anything I said. This is your agenda.



This has nothing to do what anything I said. This is your agenda.



This has nothing to do what anything I have been saying. This is your agenda.

it's not an agenda, it more pertains to Meepy's posts.