Liberating Motherhood

[Meepy]

thats becuase they don't know anything else.

that is a very insulting thing to say towards the Amish simply because they are not materialistic. The Amish live the closest to the way people lived in the older days. Yet they were rated statistically the happiest people on earth. Kinda puts a rut in the "women were all miserable back then" argument. If anything, they were probably much more happier because they were less materialistic and didn't have unrealistic expectations of marriage. They understood their role in motherhood as a duty from God, which they did it in charity and sacrifice. Just like the blessed Mother did.

 

[Rebekka]

Well Meepy, this will probably come as a surprise to you, but I do agree with you on some things. I hate materialism and think it is one of the greatest evils of our time. For us spiritually, but also for the environment and for later generations. The love of money is the root of all evil.

And although I call myself a feminist because I believe in equal rights (I admire the suffragettes, for example, not so much the later feminists; and I love men, especially the one that I married) - you know, the whole voting thing, and education, and being your own person with the right to open a bank account or choose a career - I also see a lot of bad side effects of feminism.

Most of all abortion, but I also think that feminism has unintentionally led to more materialism. It's not the only factor, but it plays a part. And the movement that started because women did not have a choice in careers because all they could do was become a wife and mother (or become a religious) has turned into a movement where women who do make the free choice to be homemakers are looked down upon. So there's still no free choice really. And if there's no social taboo on it, there's a financial one, because there is indeed job inflation so that a couple can't get by on one income anymore. And the kids are suffering from it. Now feminism is not the only contributing factor to that, and I wouldn't want to throw the baby away with the bathwater - I'm thankful for the feminist movement because it gave me the right to vote etc. But it's not all good.

 

[Meepy]

That sounds so wrong. Why should women have to depend on a man? But then again man depends on God.

Genesis 3:16, Ephesians 5:22-26

the wife depends on the husband because she trusts him in conjugal love. You know, things like trust, charity and hope? Marriage is a self giving and supporting of one another. The husband supports the wife through his hardship and work, food, structure, and the wife nurtures the home and the children. Or as the epistle of Timothy says "keepers at home"

If something does go wrong, the family should step in(father in law, father, grandparents)

That is not to say a woman can have work on the side that she does that brings in income. But motherhood should be put in priority, and job issues secondary.

Benedicto seems to think all marriage is, is expecting your spouse to make you 100% happy all of the time, and then blaming them if they don't. Marriage isn't about being happy all the time. Life in general isn't like that. They both involve hardship, sacrifice, and work.

It is this attitude as to the reason why divorce is so high. Unrealistic expectations of expecting the other spouse to make them happy 100% of the time. "Why didn't you do this, WHY didn't you do that"

You can't have a decent marriage with that attitude and where the spouses are blaming each other and are at each other necks. A good marriage is a submissive(colossians 3:18), meek, and sacrificing spirit in the wife and a leading, strong, and hardworking spirit in the husband

 

[higherFaith]

Getting into marraige. Time for me to bow out.

 

[benedictaoo]

that is a very insulting thing to say towards the Amish simply because they are not materialistic. The Amish live the closest to the way people lived in the older days. Yet they were rated statistically the happiest people on earth. Kinda puts a rut in the "women were all miserable back then" argument. If anything, they were probably much more happier because they were less materialistic and didn't have unrealistic expectations of marriage. They understood their role in motherhood as a duty from God, which they did it in charity and sacrifice. Just like the blessed Mother did.

Sorry Meepy, but you aren't going to sell me on the Amish. They are extremists. And theology wise, they are way off base.

They are peaceful ppl? Of course but they are not "right" to think we all are supposed to live with no dang electricity.

They deny a lot of the gifts God gave to us. NOt all of modern inventions and technology is bad and evil.

You can not be materialistic and be normal.

 

[benedictaoo]

hear that everyone? I really want people to take a look at this sentence above.

It this the loving attitude you want to bring in marriage?

Meep, we are talking about women who are suffering from serious mental health issues and I can not image a husband sitting around not knowing the wife is not right and not doing something about it.

Again, you are arguing with actual real life experiences. Read Michi's thread about her SIL... people can have a nervous breakdown taking care of other ppl, this is factual, 100% factual.

and ppl can be in the house and not even notice it when is something wrong because they are self absorb and self interested. And when something so extreme as a mother killing her children happens, everyone wants to act surprised like they never saw it coming.

And BA, excuse me, are you really going to agree with him? That women kill their kids just becuase? No women in her right mind kills her children. I hope you can at least agree with that.

and THIS has nothing to do with we what were discussing.

The bottom line Meepy, Bottom line- Men in general, they need to stop being babies,selfish, insensitive and dis concerned with what goes on with their wives and if you do not believe me now, one day you will.

 

[benedictaoo]

That sounds so wrong. Why should women have to depend on a man? But then again man depends on God.

Because some men on here think this is the "Catholic" way...

 

[higherFaith]

Because some men on here think this is the "Catholic" way...

I don't depend on anyone but God, I like it that way.

 

[benedictaoo]

Genesis 3:16, Ephesians 5:22-26

the wife depends on the husband because she trusts him in conjugal love. You know, things like trust, charity and hope? Marriage is a self giving and supporting of one another. The husband supports the wife through his hardship and work, food, structure, and the wife nurtures the home and the children. Or as the epistle of Timothy says "keepers at home"

If something does go wrong, the family should step in(father in law, father, grandparents)

That is not to say a woman can have work on the side that she does that brings in income. But motherhood should be put in priority, and job issues secondary.

Benedicto seems to think all marriage is, is expecting your spouse to make you 100% happy all of the time, and then blaming them if they don't. Marriage isn't about being happy all the time. Life in general isn't like that. They both involve hardship, sacrifice, and work.

It is this attitude as to the reason why divorce is so high. Unrealistic expectations of expecting the other spouse to make them happy 100% of the time. "Why didn't you do this, WHY didn't you do that"

You can't have a decent marriage with that attitude and where the spouses are blaming each other and are at each other necks. A good marriage is a submissive(colossians 3:18), meek, and sacrificing spirit in the wife and a leading, strong, and hardworking spirit in the husband

Meepy, you're a numbers guy so here are some number for you to chew on.

I have been married for 23 years, we have 6 children. My oldest kids are 20 and 22, my middle children are 14 and 16, my youngest are 8 and 6. I have known my husband since 1986 and been with him day in and day out since.

Come and talk to me when you get that far along when you can make a marriage last that long.

You have only been married for 7 years and you do not have any children yet- you have a long, long way to go and when you get to where I'm at and when you do, then come and talk to me.

You are trying to argue a point on an ideal and I agree with your ideal but its not reality.

We are all far too disordered and fallen ppl. Men have original sin to and for some men, its dangerous to give them such power over a women.

 

[higherFaith]

Meepy, you're a numbers guy so here are some number for you to chew on.

I have been married for 23 years, we have 6 children. My oldest kids are 20 and 22, my middle children are 14 and 16, my youngest are 8 and 6. I have known my husband since 1986 and been with him day in and day out since.

Come and talk to me when you get that far along when you can make a marriage last that long.

You have only been married for 7 years and you do not have any children yet- you have a long, long way to go and when you get to where I'm at and when you do, then come and talk to me.

Them thars fightin' words!

 

[benedictaoo]

I don't depend on anyone but God, I like it that way.

well, marriage should not be a total self independence but in this culture and with the way too many men (and women) are these days, its best that she at the very least has the ability to support herslef financially if she should ever find herslef in the unfortunate position of having to.

I can not imagine any man on here who would begrudge her that... but what ever.

 

[higherFaith]

well, marriage should not be a total self independence but in this culture and with the way too many men (and women) are these days, its best that she at the very least has the ability to support herslef financially if she should ever find herslef in the unfortunate position of having to.

I can not imagine any man on here who would begrudge her that... but what ever.

Oh I agree. Why I squirrel money away into a rainy day amount. Just in case I need it.

 

[SolomonVII]

If anything, your "and..." looks more like "nevermind" to me than my "oh, nothing". I was the first to ask you for clarification (I see two issues here", question mark???)

You seem to equate, or at least seemed, by your fish needs bicycle and open/closed remark, a woman needing a man with procreation. But that's not the only way a woman can need a man. So my statement is, you can need a man for other things than his sperm - for example, for his love, companionship and support.

You look at it from one side (if women don't need men, they can't have babies, so the fish/bike statement is ridiculous), while I look at it from the other (the fact that a woman doesn't have kids doesn't mean she doesn't need a man). I think that's why we're talking without understanding.

I think you are just trying to be argumentive now. It was a simple question stripped to the bare bone basics, and based on the many, many of my postings that preceded it. The bottom line is you eventually gave the only reasonable answer to the question that that a reasonable person could come to, went even further to acknowledge that there was indeed something misanthropic in the bicylcle statement, and I agreed and commended you to Antigone on account of your acknowledging what ought to have been painfully obvious to anyone.

I am not sure what looking at it from the other side even means: "The fact that a woman doesn't have kids means that she doesn't need a man" comes off as cryptic and bizarre, from the far side of the moon.
Btu that you eventually acknowedged the question from the plain meaning of the words, rather than tryin to look at it from some other bizarre angle was all that I was asking for. It came as an immense relief that you did so.
I mean whew, it was like pulling teeth.

 

[Rebekka]

I am not sure what looking at it from the other side even means: "The fact that a woman doesn't have kids means that she doesn't need a man" comes off as cryptic and bizarre, from the far side of the moon.

I don't know if you're paraphrasing what you said (about the bicycle) or quoting what I said... That's not what I said, I said "the fact that a woman doesn't have kids doesn't mean that she doesn't need a man." So, if a woman is childless, she may still need a man - you know, want to be married, want someone to share her life with.

 

[BAFRIEND]

So if men really do love their children and don't want them dead, they should be willing to care about their wife and see if she is alright and if he can help.

hear that everyone? I really want people to take a look at this sentence above.

It this the loving attitude you want to bring in marriage?

yeah she is basically saying,

honey, make me happy and take the garbage out or while you are at work tomorrow i shoot the kids

 

[higherFaith]

yeah she is basically saying,

honey, make me happy and take the garbage out or while you are at work tomorrow i shoot the kids

That made absolutely no sense.

 

[Rebekka]

Do mothers kill their kids more often than fathers in the US?

(I don't know the stats over here.)

 

[BAFRIEND]

well, marriage should not be a total self independence but in this culture and with the way too many men (and women) are these days, its best that she at the very least has the ability to support herslef financially if she should ever find herslef in the unfortunate position of having to.

I can not imagine any man on here who would begrudge her that... but what ever.

my relative was able to support herself by stealing the kids and moving in witht he man she was having an affair with

her boyfriend worked part time while her husband had to give her the house a car and lost custody of the kids and he to pay child support which she used to buy herself new clothes and a cruise to europe for her and her bf while the kids stayed with her parents

sometimes i wonder why he did not just kill himself, but that would be betraying her wouldn't it ?

 

[Meepy]

Meepy, you're a numbers guy so here are some number for you to chew on.

I have been married for 23 years, we have 6 children. My oldest kids are 20 and 22, my middle children are 14 and 16, my youngest are 8 and 6. I have known my husband since 1986 and been with him day in and day out since.

Come and talk to me when you get that far along when you can make a marriage last that long.

You have only been married for 7 years and you do not have any children yet- you have a long, long way to go and when you get to where I'm at and when you do, then come and talk to me.

You are trying to argue a point on an ideal and I agree with your ideal but its not reality.

We are all far too disordered and fallen ppl. Men have original sin to and for some men, its dangerous to give them such power over a women.

reality is subjective. To accept something as 'reality' and do nothing because of it is the exact reason why moral progress becomes so stalemate and stagnant. Its almost like throwing in the towel and giving up. Its good to have an ideal, because it is a goal for one to progress to. Without an ideal you wander around without direction. God knows us best, the Church knows us best. The encyclicals and scriptures on marriage and roles do have utmost bearing. The problems are happening because we won't follow them. We want to do it our way instead of God's way. These things are happening because no one is putting effort into things like marriage reform and divorce reform.

St. Thomas More was an idealist. He would not accept the "reality" of what was happening in England and he was martyred because of it. But he died for what he believed in. And that should be human beings goal. To strive towards the ideals and commands of God

 

[Meepy]

Do mothers kill their kids more often than fathers in the US?

(I don't know the stats over here.)

yes, child abuse has the highest rate in single mother households. For some reason it is OVER twice as high in single mother households than single father households. In this context the ideal of independent single mothers is obviously something that is very harmful to children. This is why wives need their husbands.

Abuse also has increased greatly since the feminist revolution in the 60s

as far as the courts being "unfair to women":

When it comes to child support, US census data indicates that:

• 79.6% of custodial mothers receive a child support award
• 29.9% of custodial fathers receive a child support award

US census data also indicates that fathers are more likely to fulfil their child support obligations than mothers:

• 43% of moms required to pay child support are "deadbeat moms" - i.e. they default on 100% of the money they owe,
• 32% of dads required to pay child support are "deadbeat dads" - i.e. they default on 100% of the money they owe.

US Divorce Statistics show that a divorcing mother is 7 times more likely to retain sole custody of her children than a father: USA 1990 Custody Statistics (19 States reporting) Percentage
Sole possession granted to mother
72.5%
Sole possession granted to father
10.3%
Joint possession
15.7%
Possession granted to other person(s)
1.4%
Source: http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats17.htm