Leviathan

[JustMeSee]

In Job 41, the leviathan is described:

18 By his sneezings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a boiling {seething} pot or caldron.

21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.

23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together; they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the lower millstone.

This sounds like a sea dragon to me. People on the Creation Museum Facebook page say it is a dinosaur.

What do you think it was or is?

Are there any living or deceased animals found by science that are believed to be able to breathe smoke and fire?

What would be biologically required for a creature to breath fire without burning its own throat?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

I have always found "Pete The Magic Dragon" to be better reading entertainment than "Job."

 

[Spirit Compass]

In Job 41, the leviathan is described:


This sounds like a sea dragon to me. People on the Creation Museum Facebook page say it is a dinosaur. [Certainly this is a possibility. The description of Krakken, the great destroyer of ships, exists in the lore of seafarers].

What do you think it was or is? At Sea World in Orlando we saw an entire section devoted to these ancient sea dragons. The tyrranasaurus rex is often depected as having flame-emitting nostrils].

Are there any living or deceased animals found by science that are believed to be able to breathe smoke and fire? [The bombadier beetle]

What would be biologically required for a creature to breath fire without burning its own throat? [If it had flame resistent throat lining, yes.]

Dragons of the Deep Blue Sea have modern cousins who are awesome and terrible. National Geographic did stories on the Komodo Dragon and the Giant Salamander that show how powerful and carnivorous these monstrous coast and sea can be. Alligators and crocodiles are equally horrible to encounter in their own habitats.

 

[Hespera]

In Job 41, the leviathan is described:


This sounds like a sea dragon to me. People on the Creation Museum Facebook page say it is a dinosaur. [Certainly this is a possibility. The description of Krakken, the great destroyer of ships, exists in the lore of seafarers].

Not possible. Dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years.

and a lot of t hings exist in lore. mermaids, among them.

What do you think it was or is? At Sea World in Orlando we saw an entire section devoted to these ancient sea dragons. The tyrranasaurus rex is often depected as having flame-emitting nostrils].


good grief.


Are there any living or deceased animals found by science that are believed to be able to breathe smoke and fire? [The bombadier beetle]

No smoke, and no fire! other than that 100% correct. There is a beetle by that name.


What would be biologically required for a creature to breath fire without burning its own throat? [If it had flame resistent throat lining, yes.]

Dragons of the Deep Blue Sea have modern cousins who are awesome and terrible. National Geographic did stories on the Komodo Dragon and the Giant Salamander that show how powerful and carnivorous these monstrous coast and sea can be. Alligators and crocodiles are equally horrible to encounter in their own habitats.

The giant salamander is a flabby creature about 5 ft. long.

There were tho, during the Cretaceous particularly, some creatures that would satisfy anyone that they were sea monsters! Nobody ever saw on the, we only have skeletons.

 

[Spirit Compass]

In Job 41, the leviathan is described:


This sounds like a sea dragon to me. People on the Creation Museum Facebook page say it is a dinosaur.

What do you think it was or is?

Are there any living or deceased animals found by science that are believed to be able to breathe smoke and fire?

What would be biologically required for a creature to breath fire without burning its own throat?

This creature could have been a precessor to another modern monster.

The Komodo dragons are the largest lizards in the world and with their ancient appearance and evocative name they conjure up the stuff of legends. The heavy-set body is long with stocky legs and a long muscular tail; the scaly skin is greyish-brown all over. Dragons from the island of Flores however, are earthen-red in colour with a yellow head. Juveniles have a more striking pattern with very variable combinations of bands and speckling in yellow, green, grey and brown. Komodos have a well-developed sense of smell and their long, forked yellow tongue resembles the mythical, fire-breathing dragons of their name. [From MarineBio Archives]

 

[sandwiches]

This creature could have been a precessor to another modern monster.

The Komodo dragons are the largest lizards in the world and with their ancient appearance and evocative name they conjure up the stuff of legends. The heavy-set body is long with stocky legs and a long muscular tail; the scaly skin is greyish-brown all over. Dragons from the island of Flores however, are earthen-red in colour with a yellow head. Juveniles have a more striking pattern with very variable combinations of bands and speckling in yellow, green, grey and brown. Komodos have a well-developed sense of smell and their long, forked yellow tongue resembles the mythical, fire-breathing dragons of their name. [From MarineBio Archives]

The fact remains that there's no animal, that we know of, that breathes fire and smoke. So, as far as fire-breathing reptile-like animals, there's no scientific evidence for anything like that.

 

[JustMeSee]

The description in Job, other than the water dwelling trait, sounds like the current image of dragons in popular fiction.

Are there any written or drawn representations of dragons that predate the Bible?

 

[Hespera]

This creature could have been a precessor to another modern monster.

The Komodo dragons are the largest lizards in the world and with their ancient appearance and evocative name they conjure up the stuff of legends. The heavy-set body is long with stocky legs and a long muscular tail; the scaly skin is greyish-brown all over. Dragons from the island of Flores however, are earthen-red in colour with a yellow head. Juveniles have a more striking pattern with very variable combinations of bands and speckling in yellow, green, grey and brown. Komodos have a well-developed sense of smell and their long, forked yellow tongue resembles the mythical, fire-breathing dragons of their name. [From MarineBio Archives]

Well yes there are komodo dragons, im sure we have all seen nature films. There was a much larger monitor lizard in Australia up till about 25,000 years ago, and there were much bigger ones during dino days.

But none of this has anything to do with "leviathan", a mythical creatures, like dragons. The ancient goat herders of the middle east sure didnt go to Indonesia and see the big monitor lizards there.

 

[Cassiterides]

The fact remains that there's no animal, that we know of, that breathes fire and smoke. So, as far as fire-breathing reptile-like animals, there's no scientific evidence for anything like that.

From Dinosaurs by Design, Duane Gish Ph.D:

''Parasaurolophus had a great bony chest with hollow chambers. Perhaps a Parasaurolophus could combine chemicals in his hollow crest and spray a combustible mixture, which would spontaneously ignite
when contacting the oxygen in the air''​

Possible comparison - look at the bombardier beetle?

 

[Hespera]

From Dinosaurs by Design, Duane Gish Ph.D:

''Parasaurolophus had a great bony chest with hollow chambers. Perhaps a Parasaurolophus could combine chemicals in his hollow crest and spray a combustible mixture, which would spontaneously ignite
when contacting the oxygen in the air''​

Possible comparison - look at the bombardier beetle?

I dont think it would be completely impossible for there to be a fire breathing animal. Unlikely, but possible, i guess. Same as an organic laser is probably possible...even if it may not exist anywhere in the universe.

I do think tho that if you have a guy like Gish, who as a creationist is committed to the principle that you start with the conclusion and look for evidence, or "evidence" or wild speculation to back up your preaching to the unwashed, whatever he says is deeply tainted.

Anyone who starts with the conclusion is; we are not singling out creos here.

I dont think youd find anyone but a creationist who has to look for evidence for the bible who will be interested in his ideas.

But then no dinosaur was ever seen by any human being, so the whole topic is moot.

 

[Spirit Compass]

Well yes there are komodo dragons, im sure we have all seen nature films. There was a much larger monitor lizard in Australia up till about 25,000 years ago, and there were much bigger ones during dino days.

But none of this has anything to do with "leviathan", a mythical creatures, like dragons. The ancient goat herders of the middle east sure didnt go to Indonesia and see the big monitor lizards there.

It is unlikely that fishermen in the Sea of Galilee would have knowledge of the largest sea creatures found in maritime occupations and explorations.

Fishermen and seafarers of the Mediterranean Sea would have knowledge of squid and octopi which are those creatures of lore of an era closer than that of Jonah and the patriarchs.

The North Atlantic seamen of Norway and Iceland had the lore of what they considered 'leviathan' to be:

The Kraken by TennysonBelow the thunders of the upper deep;
Far far beneath in the abysmal sea,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides; above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumber'd and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages, and will lie
Battening upon huge seaworms in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by man and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.


Zimzala

 

[Spirit Compass]

From Dinosaurs by Design, Duane Gish Ph.D:

''Parasaurolophus had a great bony chest with hollow chambers. Perhaps a Parasaurolophus could combine chemicals in his hollow crest and spray a combustible mixture, which would spontaneously ignite
when contacting the oxygen in the air''​

Possible comparison - look at the bombardier beetle?

"Dr. Wermann Schildknecht, a German chemist, studied the bombardier beetle to find out how he accomplishes this impressive chemical feat. He learned that the beetle makes his explosive by mixing together two very dangerous chemicals (hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide). In addition to these two chemicals, this clever little beetle adds another type of chemical known as an inhibitor. The inhibitor prevents the chemicals from blowing up and enables the beetle to store the chemicals indefinitely.
"Whenever our beetle friend is approached by a predator, such as a frog, he squirts the stored chemicals into the two combustion tubes, and at precisely the right moment he adds another chemical (an antiinhibitor). This knocks out the inhibitor, and a violent explosion occurs right in the face of the poor attacker. "Could such a marvelous and complex mechanism have evolved piecemeal over millions of years? The evolutionist is forced to respond with a somewhat sheepish "yes," but a brief consideration of this opinion will reveal its preposterous nature.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

From Dinosaurs by Design, Duane Gish Ph.D:

''Parasaurolophus had a great bony chest with hollow chambers. Perhaps a Parasaurolophus could combine chemicals in his hollow crest and spray a combustible mixture, which would spontaneously ignite
when contacting the oxygen in the air''​

Possible comparison - look at the bombardier beetle?

Yeah, I'll go with what actual paleontologists have to say about Parasaurolophus, rather than what "Galloping Gish" has to say.

"One unusual suggestion, made by creationist Duane Gish, is that the crest housed chemical glands that allowed it to throw jets of chemical "fire" at enemies, similar to the modern-day bombardier beetle.[38]
Most of these hypotheses have been discredited or rejected.[2] For example, there is no hole at the end of the crest for a snorkeling function. There are no muscle scars for a proboscis and it is dubious that an animal with a beak would need one. As a proposed airlock, it would not have kept out water. The proposed air reservoir would have been insufficient for an animal the size of Parasaurolophus. Other hadrosaurids had large heads without needing large hollow crests to serve as attachment points for supporting ligaments.[37] Also, none of the proposals explain why the crest has such a shape, why other lambeosaurines should have crests that look much different but perform a similar function, how crestless or solid-crested hadrosaurids got along without such capabilities, or why some hadrosaurids had solid crests. These considerations particularly impact hypotheses based on increasing the capabilities of systems already present in the animal, such as the salt gland and olfaction hypotheses,[28] and indicate that these were not primary functions of the crest. Additionally, work on the nasal cavity of lambeosaurines shows that olfactory nerves and corresponding sensory tissue were largely outside the portion of the nasal passages in the crest, so the expansion of the crest had little to do with the sense of smell.[29]"


Real information FTW.

 

[Hespera]

It is unlikely that fishermen in the Sea of Galilee would have knowledge of the largest sea creatures found in maritime occupations and explorations.

Fishermen and seafarers of the Mediterranean Sea would have knowledge of squid and octopi which are those creatures of lore of an era closer than that of Jonah and the patriarchs.

The North Atlantic seamen of Norway and Iceland had the lore of what they considered 'leviathan' to be:

The Kraken by TennysonBelow the thunders of the upper deep;
Far far beneath in the abysmal sea,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides; above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumber'd and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages, and will lie
Battening upon huge seaworms in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by man and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.




Zimzala

what does that have to do with leviathan or anything that I said?

 

[Hespera]

"Dr. Wermann Schildknecht, a German chemist, studied the bombardier beetle to find out how he accomplishes this impressive chemical feat. He learned that the beetle makes his explosive by mixing together two very dangerous chemicals (hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide). In addition to these two chemicals, this clever little beetle adds another type of chemical known as an inhibitor. The inhibitor prevents the chemicals from blowing up and enables the beetle to store the chemicals indefinitely.
"Whenever our beetle friend is approached by a predator, such as a frog, he squirts the stored chemicals into the two combustion tubes, and at precisely the right moment he adds another chemical (an antiinhibitor). This knocks out the inhibitor, and a violent explosion occurs right in the face of the poor attacker. "Could such a marvelous and complex mechanism have evolved piecemeal over millions of years? The evolutionist is forced to respond with a somewhat sheepish "yes," but a brief consideration of this opinion will reveal its preposterous nature.

good info until the fantasy starts. "evolutionist" indeed.

"forced" to respond with a "somewhat sheepish".... right. pure fantasy editorializing.


"but a brief consideration of this opinion will reveal its preposterous nature.

The briefer the better. Because this like any other "irreducible complexity" argument only works as a quip or sound bite for the non critical listener.

Neither this nor any other creo argument will stand up to serious consideration. So yes, make it brief.

If someone can find an argument that holds water, there is a box somewhere than holds the Nobel prize they will win for it.

 

[AV1611VET]

The fact remains that there's no animal, that we know of, that breathes fire and smoke. So, as far as fire-breathing reptile-like animals, there's no scientific evidence for anything like that.

Keep looking.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

The evidence suggests there were firebreathing plesiosaurs.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

"Dr. Wermann Schildknecht, a German chemist, studied the bombardier beetle to find out how he accomplishes this impressive chemical feat. He learned that the beetle makes his explosive by mixing together two very dangerous chemicals (hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide). In addition to these two chemicals, this clever little beetle adds another type of chemical known as an inhibitor. The inhibitor prevents the chemicals from blowing up and enables the beetle to store the chemicals indefinitely.
"Whenever our beetle friend is approached by a predator, such as a frog, he squirts the stored chemicals into the two combustion tubes, and at precisely the right moment he adds another chemical (an antiinhibitor). This knocks out the inhibitor, and a violent explosion occurs right in the face of the poor attacker. "Could such a marvelous and complex mechanism have evolved piecemeal over millions of years? The evolutionist is forced to respond with a somewhat sheepish "yes," but a brief consideration of this opinion will reveal its preposterous nature.

"A biochemist colleague has kindly provided me with a bottle of hydrogen peroxide, and enough hydroquinone for 50 bombardier beetles. I am now about to mix the two together. According to the above, they will explode in my face. Here goes...

Well I'm still here. I poured the H2O2 and the hydroquinone, and absolutely nothing happened. It didn't even get warm. Of course I knew it wouldn't: I'm not that foolhardy! The statement that 'these two chemicals, when mixed together, literally explode', is, quite simply, false, although it is regularly repeated throughout creationist literature. If you are curious about the bombardier beetle, by the way, what actually happens is as follows. It is true that it squirts a scaldingly hot mixture of hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone at enemies. But hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone don't react violently together unless a catalyst is added. This is what the bombardier beetle does. As for the evolutionary precursors of the system, both hydrogen peroxide and various kinds of quinones are used for other purposes in body chemistry. The bombardier beetle's ancestors simply pressed into different service chemicals that already happened to be around. That's often how evolution works."
From "The Blind Watchmaker"

Once again, real information FTW.

Oh, and by the way, remind me to never read a chemistry text written by a creationist. "dangerous chemicals," indeed.

 

[Spirit Compass]

what does that have to do with leviathan or anything that I said?

Seafarers of another era tell stories and sing songs of their voyages on the high seas. Leviathan is a myth. Certain sea creatures, amphibians, and the insect kingdom give us comparisons and possibilities.

When Jacques Cousteau designed the aqualung to explore beneath the surface of the deep, and then his underwater craft, the human race found a way to gain knowledge and understanding of marine biology.

Prior to that existed myth, legend, and lore as found in the Bible verses about Leviathon. My intent was to respond to the OP's theme, not to pretend to be an authority. Life experience is a tremendous learning lab.

Catch the Wave

 

[Hespera]

Seafarers of another era tell stories and sing songs of their voyages on the high seas. Leviathan is a myth. Certain sea creatures, amphibians, and the insect kingdom give us comparisons and possibilities.

When Jacques Cousteau designed the aqualung to explore beneath the surface of the deep, and then his underwater craft, the human race found a way to gain knowledge and understanding of marine biology.

Prior to that existed myth, legend, and lore as found in the Bible verses about Leviathon. My intent was to respond to the OP's theme, not to pretend to be an authority. Life experience is a tremendous learning lab.

Catch the Wave

True enough. i think generation after generation of people listening to "sea tales", with no sea monsters, or mermaids, no Hyperborea, no cyclops, have finally convinced the public that sea tales are just.... sea tales.


we wonder when everyone will have had enough life experience to understand that after generation after generation of people making paranormal and supernatural claims, but never being able to deliver... when will the public catch on to that?