Levels of EvC belief

[Strathos]

This stuff measures distance, not time.

Can God create a star tomorrow a fifty light years away, with it's light shinning on the earth?

Not without embedding 50 years of false history into that light.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not without embedding 50 years of false history into that light.

Really?

What's Jacob's ladder then?

46 billion light years of embedded history as well?

 

[RealityCheck01]

Really?

Strathos is stating the obvious. The lies inserted into the universe have to also lie about the history of the universe to various extents.
For your example of a star 50 light years away, there is an additional lie about the motion of the star needing a Doppler shift lie.
For stars with exoplanets, there are many additional lies that have to be embedded in that first lie to fool us into finding those exoplanets.
For galaxies, there are the additional lies about an expanding universe, the measured acceleration of that expansion, supernova, etc.
For the CMB, a lie with additional lies on the complete history of the universe added.

ETA: It is not only light that lies.
We have detected neutrinos from a supernova millions of light years away.
We have detected gravitational waves from millions of light years away.

 

[AV1611VET]

Strathos is stating the obvious.

But from a myopic perspective.

It's the same logic that says God can't create a loaf of raisin bread in the wink of an eye without being deceptive, since raisins are aged grapes.

 

[RealityCheck01]

But from a myopic perspective.

You should retract the lie of a " myopic perspective".
You claim that God created a lying universe with light crested as if it was emitted from a star when it was not. Strathos and I have pointed out the obvious fact that of this "Lying light" claim leads to many other lies. Light tells us more much than just the star existed 50 years ago (your example) or millions of years ago or billions of years ago.

13 June 2018 AV1611VET: The enormous body of lies that your "lying light" claim causes.

 

[AV1611VET]

You should retract the lie of a " myopic perspective".

I bumped this thread, just for you:

My Raisin Bread Challenge

 

[RealityCheck01]

I bumped this thread, just for you:

Irrelevant so just for you:
13 June 2018 AV1611VET: Please retract the "myopic perspective" lie.

13 June 2018 AV1611VET: The enormous body of lies that your "lying light" claim causes.

 

[AV1611VET]

13 June 2018 AV1611VET: Please retract the "myopic perspective" lie.

Strathos knows what I'm talking about, so don't blow a gasket.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Strathos knows what I'm talking about, so don't blow a gasket.

What you imagine Strathos to know does not alter what you wrote in this thread. You lied about a "myopic perspective" for the posts in this thread. Thus my reasonable and calm request:
13 June 2018 AV1611VET: Please retract the "myopic perspective" lie.

 

[AV1611VET]

What you imagine Strathos to know does not alter what you wrote in this thread. You lied about a "myopic perspective" for the posts in this thread. Thus my reasonable and calm request:
13 June 2018 AV1611VET: Please retract the "myopic perspective" lie.

That's a reportable offense, RC.

You're out of line.

I won't report you, because I very seldom do.

I just wish you'd reconsider.

 

[Strathos]

Really?

What's Jacob's ladder then?

46 billion light years of embedded history as well?

A light-year is a measure of distance.

 

[dad]

The questioner would be you. Who cares would be anyone who knows about the real world and so are applied at the ignorance the question implies.

I never questions how long orbits in the fishbowl took. How ridiculous a claim.

You are the one implying that it is impossible to measure 6 months between the 2 measurements needed for the best parallax measurements here on Earth.

Never even thought such foolishness.

On the other hand, your posts do contain some incoherent stuff about time here on Earth so I better give you a chance to state your case clearly.

Well, my case is that science does not know what time is like in deep space. Only here do we experience time.

First what happens in the real world yet again!
Parallax is a purely geometrical effect of a close object appearing to move against a distant background. Take your hand. Put your thumb up. Hold your thumb at arms length and keep the thumb still. Shut one eye. Note the position of your thumb against the background. Close that eye and open the other eye. See that your thumb appears to move. If you measured the angle then it is simple trig to calculate how far your thumb is away from your eyes.
N.B. The only time involved is the time between making the measurements, e.g. changing eyes. It is deluded to assert that you measure any time between you and your thumb. Or that time magically changing between you and you thumb does anything to the measurement.

False! When we take our hand and a mountain or tree or something on earth, that is all known to be in the same time and space.

When you grab a swath of the solar system, that also is in our time and space. When you draw a line to a star that may not be in our time and space, and try to make that base line from here equal...you are acting in belief and ignorance.

Parallax is a technique used in measuring distance here on Earth, e.g. coincidence rangefinder.
13 June 2018 dad: Do you deny that we can use parallax to measure terrestrial distances on Earth using time as it exists here in the Solar System?

No. Of course we can.

The use of parallax in astronomy is the same except the time between measurements is longer to give a bigger angle.

Wrong. Drawing a line to a star reaches beyond where we know our time exists.

13 June 2018 dad: Do you deny that we can use parallax to measure astronomical distances on Earth using time as it exists here in the Solar System?

Bingo. You only do so by faith.

 

[FredVB]

Can God create a star tomorrow a fifty light years away, with it's light shinning on the earth?

Not without embedding 50 years of false history into that light.

Strathos is stating the obvious. The lies inserted into the universe have to also lie about the history of the universe to various extents.
For your example of a star 50 light years away, there is an additional lie about the motion of the star needing a Doppler shift lie.

During my life as a believer I had wrestled with thoughts about this. There is the reasonable logic to figure that there is light from stars so far away that it would take many many thousands of years to get here. Yahweh God could create light from those stars to here instantaneously. But some light actually from some stars would not be here yet while they are seen, if there was creation that way. The world would have been formless, but that reasoning means that this universe is that old for it, otherwise God would be deceptive in things that are around for us to figure out, I don't see that being the case. The world then with a thick deep atmosphere didn't have light reach within the atmosphere originally, and became opaque, and soon after the heavenly bodies, with the stars out there, could be seen. This I find to be reasonable to believe with my faith.

 

[AV1611VET]

There is the reasonable logic to figure that there is light from stars so far away that it would take many many thousands of years to get here.

Using stars tens and hundreds and thousands of light years away, God configured them in such a way as to convey the Gospel (Psalm 19).

It would defeat the purpose of having the Gospel in the sky available to the world if the light wasn't already here.

A good example is the constellation Aries.

Aries is not a ram, but a lamb.

The "lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

When Jesus was crucified, it went dark for three hours from noon to three.

Looking up in the sky over the Cross, they saw Aries.

Aries, however, is 235 million light years from Earth.

That means they would not have been able to see it for another … well … 235 million years.

 

[PsychoSarah]

But from a myopic perspective.

It's the same logic that says God can't create a loaf of raisin bread in the wink of an eye without being deceptive, since raisins are aged grapes.

-_- it's deceptive if it is made to appear as if humans made it. For example, unlike a human, a deity that is omniscient and omnipotent could make a loaf of raisin bread that never loses mass despite it being consumed. What's the point in the deity making an entirely mundane loaf of bread, and how would anyone, believer or not, be expected to recognize that this particular loaf of bread was divine if there was nothing special about it?

You can try to say "god told them", and as satisfactory as that may be for the people that have that experience, it doesn't follow for anyone they recount it to. After all, not everyone that claims to talk to deities is telling the truth. What's to stop these people from being swayed into thinking an entirely different loaf of bread is divine because someone else makes the same claim about it, and there is nothing special about either loaf of bread?

-_- if the deity you believe in is even a match for human intelligence, it should be well aware that it hasn't made its bread special enough for people to reasonably conclude it is divine, making it unrealistic for it to demand that people believe it made the bread.

Also, I'd call wine "aged grapes". Raisins are dried grapes.

 

[AV1611VET]

Also, I'd call wine "aged grapes". Raisins are dried grapes.

Good point!

 

[PsychoSarah]

Good point!

Funny thing about the raisin bread is that I am pretty sure that if someone walked up to you and claimed that god made a loaf of raisin bread and provided nothing but a story about it and an unremarkable loaf of bread to you that you wouldn't believe them.

 

[RealityCheck01]

That's a reportable offense, RC.

Then report it and see what the moderators think.
You wrote a "myopic perspective" comment about a post. The post was not based on any perspective. The post was a statement of fact. The comment thus lied about the contents of the post. I showed you how it was not about the contents of the post and asked you politely to retract it.
13 June 2018 AV1611VET: Please retract the "myopic perspective" lie.

For the convenience of the moderators, this is the post he replied to:

Not without embedding 50 years of false history into that light.

This is the fact that God creating light from stars means God would also have to embed history into that light. I pointed out the fact that stars move and so God would add the appropriate Doppler shift for that movement. AV1611VET's reply included "46 billion light years of embedded history as well?" so I applied that false history appropriately. In addition God would have to fake the neutrinos and gravitational waves that we have observed.

N.B. This is not to do with AV1611VET's faith or any restriction on the powers of God. This is a description of all of the acts that God would have to do to create a universe that matches what we observe about the universe and have the universe actually created in 4004 BC.
Someone with faith could argue that I am pointing out how powerful God is.

 

[RealityCheck01]

... Wrong. Drawing a line to a star reaches beyond where we know our time exists.

There is no physical line from the Earth to a star that any fact less time fantasies can affect.

Thus we are back to the old fact less fantasies about parallax and time.
12 June 2018 dad: Cannot understand that half of Earth's orbit of a year is half a year (6 months)
6 June 2018 dad: A deluded "whether time exists in the solar system woven with space" question.
5 June 2018 dad: A lie of basing distances on time without facts about time (Earth's orbit takes a year).
1 June 2018 dad: The obvious fact that fact less fantasies make all bets moot

For others (since all we will get is wash/rinse/repeat of his time fantasies):
I will not do deep research to debunk fact less fantasies because they are fantasies without facts! However my impression of how parallax measurements are actually done does not involve "lines".
Terrestrial rangefinders using parallax move images to match backgrounds and that matching is what gives the angle and distance.
Astronomers take an image of a star and its background. Six months later they take another image of the star and its background. The shift in the background is what is measured. The mathematical geometry then tells them the distance to the star.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Using stars tens and hundreds and thousands of light years away, God configured them in such a way as to convey the Gospel (Psalm 19).

The Book of Psalms is the lyrics for songs by unknown authors, not the word of God. Psalm 19

The opening verses of Psalm 19 present the heavenly bodies and their movement as a universal witness to the glory of God that is understood by people of every language.

Aries is a ram

The name Aries is Latin for ram ...

Lambs do not have horns.

You should give a source for your assertion that Aries was seen during the crucifixion darkness. It is a reasonable assumption but I cannot remember it in the Gospels. Why is seeing a ram in the many other stars that would have been visible significant?

Aries is a constellation of stars in the Milky Way. It is not "225 million light years away". The constellation stars start at 12.6 light years away and go to 3900 light years away. The reason that light from a star 3900 light years away is seen today and even during the crucifixion is that the light left the star 3900 years before it was seen.