Levels of EvC belief

dad · May 30, 2018

pitabread said:
Doesn't matter what it says. There is no objective way to differentiate what you believe from someone who believes the universe has only existed for a week.

I think he mentioned 4004 BC. You can't differentiate that from last week?

pitabread · May 30, 2018

dad said:
I think he mentioned 4004 BC. You can't differentiate that from last week?

If the underlying argument is that the universe was created ~6000 years ago but has the appearance of billions of years then no, you can't differentiate between a universe created 6000 years or a universe created last week.

The premise underlying the argument is that the universe is inherently deceptive. And if you believe in a deceptive universe all bets are off.

AV1611VET · May 30, 2018

pitabread said:
If the underlying argument is that the universe was created ~6000 years ago but has the appearance of billions of years then no, you can't differentiate between a universe created 6000 years or a universe created last week.

So what?

What's your point?

That scientists go 404 when it comes to having to reconcile SN1987A with shallow time?

No argument there.

Science is myopic.

pitabread · May 30, 2018

AV1611VET said:
What's your point?

The point is having a way to objectively test ideas.

This is the whole point of Last Thursdayism. It is a philosophical illustration of an unfalsifiable and un-testable belief: Last Thursdayism - RationalWiki

It's no different than what you guys are suggesting with your embedded age, or different past or whatever you want to call it. It's a rejection of an objective universe.

AV1611VET · May 30, 2018

pitabread said:
It's a rejection of an objective universe.

You wanna see "rejection of an objective universe"?

Watch this:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Evolutionist: The earth formed over time.
Creationist: The earth was created in a moment of time.
Evolutionist: Show me.
Creationist: Can't.
Evolutionist: My evidence beats yours then.

* At the White Throne Judgment *

Evolutionist: The earth formed over time.
God: Show me.
Evolutionist: Sure, this is a picture of the Cosmic Micro... um ... where'd it go? I thought I had it right here with me.
God: Come with me.
Evolutionist: Where we going?
God: Back to 4004 BC, I want to show you something I did that I got called a "deceiver" for.

AV1611VET · May 30, 2018

pitabread · May 30, 2018

AV1611VET said:
You wanna see "rejection of an objective universe"?

I don't particularly care about Bible quotes nor threats of supernatural judgement.

If there really is a supernatural god, I'd rather give them more credit than you do.

AV1611VET · May 30, 2018

pitabread said:
I don't particularly care about Bible quotes nor threats of supernatural judgement.

If there really is a supernatural god, I'd rather give them more credit than you do.

Oh, you will.

Believe me ... you will.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

pitabread · May 30, 2018

AV1611VET said:
Oh, you will.

Believe me ... you will.

I find these types of threats incredibly petty and distasteful. If there really was a supernatural being that desired my belief/obedience/whatever, I feel they'd do a much better job screening their representatives.

AV1611VET · May 30, 2018

pitabread said:
I find these types of threats incredibly petty and distasteful. If there really was a supernatural being that desired my belief/obedience/whatever, I feel they'd do a much better job screening their representatives.

And what would you expect from a "better" one?

VirOptimus · May 30, 2018

AV1611VET said:
You wanna see "rejection of an objective universe"?

Watch this:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Evolutionist: The earth formed over time.
Creationist: The earth was created in a moment of time.
Evolutionist: Show me.
Creationist: Can't.
Evolutionist: My evidence beats yours then.

* At the White Throne Judgment *

Evolutionist: The earth formed over time.
God: Show me.
Evolutionist: Sure, this is a picture of the Cosmic Micro... um ... where'd it go? I thought I had it right here with me.
God: Come with me.
Evolutionist: Where we going?
God: Back to 4004 BC, I want to show you something I did that I got called a "deceiver" for.

A made up scenario where your fantasy is proven right, how... impressive.

dad · May 31, 2018

pitabread said:
If the underlying argument is that the universe was created ~6000 years ago but has the appearance of billions of years then no, you can't differentiate between a universe created 6000 years or a universe created last week.

The premise underlying the argument is that the universe is inherently deceptive. And if you believe in a deceptive universe all bets are off.

Not really. If the last several thousand years are not representative of the whole time, then all bets are on

Last week has nothing to do with it. If anything the failing/changing models/claims of science are more prone to weekly updates.

pitabread · May 31, 2018

dad said:
Not really. If the last several thousand years are not representative of the whole time, then all bets are on

Last week has nothing to do with it. If anything the failing/changing models/claims of science are more prone to weekly updates.

I don't believe you actually understand the underlying philosophical premise of what we are talking about, nor the consequences thereof.

pitabread · May 31, 2018

AV1611VET said:
And what would you expect from a "better" one?

For one, less preaching at people and more discussing with them.

AV1611VET · May 31, 2018

pitabread said:
For one, less preaching ...

Agnostics need it.

They probably haven't heard a sermon in years.

Some sit at home on Sunday and drink beer, while making their children ride the bus to church.

Wanna know how to get them to run to church so fast they'll forget to take their car?

Let their kid come home and say, "My Sunday school teacher says there's no Santa Claus!?"

pitabread · May 31, 2018

AV1611VET said:
Agnostics need it.

I notice you appear not to have read past the first few words in my post. Oh well.

They probably haven't heard a sermon in years.

You'd be wrong. This is what I meant about discussing things with people as opposed to preaching at them.

RealityCheck01 · May 31, 2018

dad said:
Not really. If the last several thousand years are not representative of the whole time, then all bets are on

Wrong: If anyone can make up anything they want then no bets are possible at all.

Fact less fantasies do not produce anything such as the age of the world, scientific dating, or dates of events in the Bible.

tas8831 · Jun 1, 2018

pitabread said:
And if you believe in a deceptive universe all bets are off.

His entire "argument" relies on it.

tas8831 · Jun 1, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
I think that's what you are suggesting.

When it comes to a non-biologist creationist's take on biology, most likely so.
Especially when what is obvious to such a person is laughably ridiculous to anyone with freshman-level biological education. To suggest that the aorta or the gut sends motor signals to the larynx to produce vocalizations is to admit 100% ignorance of the subject matter. To then provide irrelevant links and quotes trying in desperation (and, still, ignorance of the subject) to provide 'support' for such an absurdity (which the links/quotes do not do, not even close) is just icing on the narcissism cake.

dad · Jun 1, 2018

pitabread said:
I don't believe you actually understand the underlying philosophical premise of what we are talking about, nor the consequences thereof.

I don't think you realize last week is well known and documented, and 4004BC is not.

Levels of EvC belief

Which view best matches your own?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

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A nihilist who cares.

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