Level Where you CAST out demons

[briareos]

I most certainly did say people needed to be saved as I have always said that my statements concerned "children of God" (there are no unsaved children of God) I refuse to mention the abiguity of differing christian denominations becuase I think that is irrelevant and I don't intend to discuss any more than I absolutely have too, this conversation has already become incoherent enough and already hard enough to manage. I know what I did and not say and what the intentions of those statements were (I have explained and re-explained them many times) and I will not allow this conversation to become about many other things.

Jesus said that if you believe in him in his name you can cast out devils (you need to be a child of God) that is what I have said from the beginning and if you can't see that I did infact say that, then ok. That is my simple position, and it is absolutely biblical. I have not advocated that unsaved people can do anything (by any means).

 

[briareos]

In response to my question you have said these things

Jesus taught them
They are greater than we are
You mentioned Paul
You argued that Jesus would not have sent them out if they were not.

and you made this quote

After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.

The only thing that answers my question of how you can substantiate that they were highly trained is the scripture but it does not. It says he appointed people and told them to preach, it does not say or mean they were highly trained.

 

[arj1981]

Luke 10: 23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

They obtained in-depth knowledge that others weren't privy to before his time.

 

[arj1981]

In response to my question you have said these things

Jesus taught them
They are greater than we are
You mentioned Paul
You argued that Jesus would not have sent them out if they were not.

and you made this quote



The only thing that answers my question of how you can substantiate that they were highly trained is the scripture but it does not. It says he appointed people and told them to preach, it does not say or mean they were highly trained.

Wait a min. are you arguing that you feel Christ led them astray and allowed them to proclaim false teachings in His name? That makes little sense. Do you really believe there was no training involved here? I mean, these were people that were following Him for an extended period of time and listening to His teachings. That's the training I'm talking about. I keep saying they knew about Christ's teachings prior to being appointed. If they didn't then Christ didn't know what he was doing. That's why I don't know why we keep going in circles about this matter. If it is that hard for you to grasp, don't worry about it. No big deal.

 

[briareos]

Yes they did know things that others did not know, my position is this... that up untill the time of Jesus' death they still understood and believed little of what Jesus tried to tell them and when Jesus died they lost faith and Jesus had to prove himself to them again. I am saying they were not "highly trained" qualified people, I say that simply based on the possibility that they did not believe or understand much of what he taught them, they did not get it untill later in their lives, and concerning much this is shown as true. Jesus often corrected them for failing to remember, failing to understand, failing to believe up untill he died... they were not the elite, they were normal everyday people who's weakness God made up for with his great power and untill they received the holyghost with power there was much they failed to understand.

I kept asking becuase them being around Jesus and hearing his teaching did not substantiate the statement that they were "highly trained" it means they heard, it did not mean they understood or were able to believe or remember or that he taught about "everything" it was not untill after they returned that Jesus explained further about Satans fall from heaven.

He sent them to a simple task, Preach repentance in the name of Jesus, Heal the sick, cast out the demons etc.

 

[briareos]

I say "highly trained" was a bad choice of words, anyway.

We are simply repeating ourselves so unless you want to talk about something else I am going make that my last post.

 

[arj1981]

I most certainly did say people needed to be saved as I have always said that my statements concerned "children of God" (there are no unsaved children of God) I refuse to mention the abiguity of differing christian denominations becuase I think that is irrelevant and I don't intend to discuss any more than I absolutely have too, this conversation has already become incoherent enough and already hard enough to manage. I know what I did and not say and what the intentions of those statements were (I have explained and re-explained them many times) and I will not allow this conversation to become about many other things.

I am saying for this discussion to make more sense for me I would need more clarity from you. Right now, my mind goes to a million different places every time I read "faith in Christ" and "Children of GOD". These blanket terms describe so many different scenarios and they often conflict so it is like a deer in headlights every time I read it back. I actually don't care to discuss different denominations. I really wish you would realize how ambiguous your statements are and drop them altogether if you would like to continue. But I don't see any point. You keep reiterating the same thing and it is getting us nowhere. And know you've started calling people unsaved which is another blanket term with a million definitions...so I don't know what to say. For instance, unsaved as in backslidden Christians who've strayed from the cross? Aren't they still considered children of GOD bc they believe in Jesus to a certain extent? Therefore, shouldn't they be able to cast out demons even though they've abandoned the cross according to your calculations? Your statements beg this many questions. What's considered faith in Christ and GOD exactly? Some believe in a name it and claim it GOD. Even though that's not in scripture, all you keep saying is faith in Christ is all that's required to cast out demons. Your arguments have too many loopholes in it from my perspective.

Jesus said that if you believe in him in his name you can cast out devils

(you need to be a child of God) that is what I have said from the beginning and if you can't see that I did infact say that, then ok. That is my simple position, and it is absolutely biblical. I have not advocated that unsaved people can do anything (by any means).

That's not what that verse actually said. That's why I don't know why we keep going back and forth with this. However, I do know you've been saying it from the beginning. In fact, I just pointed it out to you. But Mark 16 said if you believe in the gospel which is the full testimony of Christ and His teachings - which were about repentance, humility, love for your neighbor, the meek inheriting the earth, abandoning pride and ego, etc. - Plus the fact that He is the son of GOD and are baptized after that then you can cast out demons. It doesn't say having faith in Jesus Christ is all that's required. Every scenario I listed above is about people who have faith in Christ but not all of those people would be able to cast out demons. That's the distinction I and others are making here.

 

[arj1981]

Yes they did know things that others did not know, my position is this... that up untill the time of Jesus' death they still understood and believed little of what Jesus tried to tell them and when Jesus died they lost faith and Jesus had to prove himself to them again. I am saying they were not "highly trained" qualified people, I say that simply based on the possibility that they did not believe or understand much of what he taught them, they did not get it untill later in their lives, and concerning much this is shown as true. Jesus often corrected them for failing to remember, failing to understand, failing to believe up untill he died... they were not the elite, they were normal everyday people who's weakness God made up for with his great power and untill they received the holyghost with power there was much they failed to understand.

I kept asking becuase them being around Jesus and hearing his teaching did not substantiate the statement that they were "highly trained" it means they heard, it did not mean they understood or were able to believe or remember or that he taught about "everything" it was not untill after they returned that Jesus explained further about Satans fall from heaven.

He sent them to a simple task, Preach repentance in the name of Jesus, Heal the sick, cast out the demons etc.

Don't believe that at all. That's why you were having such a hard time understanding me. No. People don't choose to risk life and limb for a revolution without knowing/understanding the cause. This scenario is a highly unlikely possibility. Remember A LOT of these people were Jews. Christ was a Jew. This is a highly religious sect you are talking about here. They all knew about the Messiah from reading it in scripture. John the Baptist's disciples came to Christ and asked are you the Messiah prophesied about in scripture? A LOT of people identified Him as such in the Bible while he was still living. A woman refused to help set the table bc she wanted to sit at Jesus' feet and listen to His teachings. He was bringing people back from the dead. These people weren't slow or ignorant at all. They were GOD fearing men and women to begin with. When Christ spoke, he commanded attention and people followed. He was preparing them all to serve Him in his own way, when the time was right.

 

[briareos]

I understand what you are saying, I disagree with your beleifs and your statements concerning myself and I am confident that I have provided the information to substantiate my position and explain myself. We are at an impass.

Have a wonderful day my friend.

 

[arj1981]

Np. It was getting very confusing for me too and I held on for as long as I could. LOL. These MBs are no joke. I bet in person things would've went a lot smoother. It is hard to figure out what the reader is trying to convey sometimes through the written word.

 

[briareos]

Absolutely, no doubt. thanks for ending this on such a friendly note. I appreciate you and your zeal for God's word.

 

[arj1981]

Same to you. Boy! let me tell you. I honestly tried. I wasn't being difficult or anything like that. I kept going back to the "name it and claim it" thing to indirectly reference the fact that I need clarity in this whole "faith in Christ" thing. Don't really know what that means or what that entails on a Christian board with so many varying beliefs. But then you started talking about "unsaved" people and boy! I was like I have just got to say something bc my wheels were spinning too much already. I'm sure in person, it would've been the complete opposite though

 

[arj1981]

Then come to find out I was equally confusing with that "highly trained" comment. In person, that discussion would've lasted 2 mins. tops. LOL.

 

[briareos]

I don't even remember talking about unsaved people and no I am not endorsing name it and claim it. I was talking about very broad issues in a very simplistic manner because I wanted to the conversation that simple. I am aware that I did not talk about everything you mentioned but that is because I think those things were accounted for in "children of God" and I was talking about a basic christian truth that people should believe, though I am aware that many people believe many different things. But this basic truth is simple enough that it could work with most if people simply believe in Jesus and are saved.

 

[briareos]

Thanks for trying

 

[arj1981]

NP Briaroes. It never hurts to try.

too cool. I'm going to check that out.

Here's full video:
‪A Haunting 1x03 Hell House split1‬‏ - YouTube
‪A Haunting 1x03 Hell House split2‬‏ - YouTube
‪A Haunting 1x03 Hell House split3‬‏ - YouTube
‪A Haunting 1x03 Hell House split4‬‏ - YouTube
‪A Haunting 1x03 Hell House split5‬‏ - YouTube

Has anybody seen this? This video is scarier than the last one I posted on my blog. Could not be me.

 

[Gospel Trafficker]

I SURE DID, I lived it!!! Tried to send you a PM but says you are not accepting them. Emailed your AIM as well

 

[briareos]

I choose to not watch those sort of videos, I watched "The Rite" a few weeks ago and I probably won't watch anything like that ever again. I choose to allow God to teach me how these things work.

 

[Maremma]

Indeed Briarios, what you have said about the apostles is exactly my point. You said they were not spiritual all stars, "Jesus told them to do it and so they did" (even though they were "amazed it worked)THEY DID what God told them to do. They obeyed Him even before He explained things to them in it's entirety. They trusted HIM to know better than they did what was truth and what was not.

The point is their faith was the kind that said "I DO what God says because He is the ultimate authority and has the ultimate truth." They put their trust in God and did not add, but, if's only, ifs, well not for me, maybe someone else. They may have had their moments of doubt or fear BUT in the end they were obedient anyway. They did not let the buts, ifs well not for me maybe someone else etc stop them from doing what God told them to do. They BELIEVED God over all those things. The reason for this WAS their "faith". The faith that God worked with them to increase to the point of miracles.


YES I also believe there are still some that have that kind of faith but certainly not in the proportion that they had back then and that is why the churches have become so weak.
We also as I have said have lost quite a bit. Yes we have the bible but it certainly isn't a word for word document of every single thing Jesus ever said. We only get the few small books in comparison to the teaching they had. That is WHY letting the Holy Spirit teach us and guide us NOW is so important. To many of us are to "earth bound" to be able to hear the Lord and if we do, we don't recognize Him because He is not standing right in front of us in the flesh speaking right to our faces.We aren't letting the word of God penetrate us far enough.


I have been working 14 hour days and so have not had much time to be on the computer. I am sorry I could not try to clarify the rest of this properly. We DO have scriptures that help us to understand these things.

Lets start with understanding "faith". The kind required for casting out demons for example.

Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus,the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We see here that Jesus is called the author and perfecter of our faith. This tells me that my faith by itself will need Jesus to "write it out for me" "perfect" it for me. On my own it won't get any "better" or "bigger" or "stronger" if Jesus doesn't "do something" to it.
Remember Peter in the boat in the storm? The very day before this happened he witnessed Jesus feeding 5000. He JUST witnessed this great miracle for himself. Yes it "was authoring his faith" but obviously it was not perfected yet.
The storm scared the daylights out of him that very night. He DID "test the spirit" that spoke to him and said "if you are Jesus command me to come" He trusted Jesus to be able to make him walk on water but then what happened? Doubt set in and he began to sink. He chose to believe the law of gravity instead of Jesus at the worst possible time and that is why he sank. His faith was still small. It takes a great deal more faith to walk on water apparently than to accept that Jesus is our Lord and savior. You not only have to believe Jesus can save you, you also have to believe without a doubt (have faith) that when He says "get out and walk on water" that YOU CAN. Clearly Peter was thoroughly convinced that Jesus was who He said He was and was His savior. He also had the faith to cry out to Jesus to save him as he sank!
SO at that point in Peter's walk with the Lord He was still having his faith grown and nurtured. His faith was not great enough at this point to "sustain" the miracles Jesus said were possible.

Luke 17:5
The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment,in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Many scriptures tell us God has to give us faith, increase our faith and perfect it.

So how does God increase our faith to make us able to do what He says we can do? How does He help us learn to completely trust Him right to the core of our being so that we will not doubt and sink in the water, keep us from being ineffective and unproductive?

Romans 10:7
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This “hearing” is not just with our ears, it is with our hearts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
The more we study and pray on the word of God the stronger our faith will become.
Then we are ‘tested” to purify the faith we received by studying and praying over God’s word. Just like with Peter, most of us falter for a while first but those that persevere are not destroyed by these tests but rather strengthened.
James 1:2-8
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

Pretty much they sink in the water. Become disconnected from the power source. Fail to receive their healing, fail to heal others, fail to receive their deliverance, fail to deliver others.
YES God gives ALL His children authority over the devil and makes them able to trample on scorpions and snakes. Else how would each as individuals be able to walk away from sin that has bound them before getting saved. He even commands us to fight the good fight and to resist the devil.

BUT there are conditions to it. First we have to have the knowledge that God gave us that power. Then we have to actually BELIEVE He gave it to US as an individual and BELIEVE without doubt! We have to CHOOSE to pick up that authority and use it. Until Jesus perfects our faith to the point we will actually believe it and gives us the wisdom and knowledge to use it, it sits like an unopened gift in a box in the back of the closet collecting dust.

2 Peter 1:5-9
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

 

[briareos]

I understand that faith grows and needs to grow. I was not advocating that any and every christian should or could cast out a devil. I said what you need as a child of God is the authority of his name and faith. Who can judge what you are capable of believing? Only you can. If you believe as a child of God and exercise the authority of Jesus' name that demon has to go and that is the extent of it. That's what I believe.

My belief comes to these conclusions.
1. You do not need rituals or sacraments
2. You do not need to talk to a demon and understand him and have a battle of wits with it.
3. You do not need to be afraid or worry
4. You do not need to use extra caution because of the nature of the demon
5. You do not need to consider what the demon could do to you

becuase if you as a child of God have the faith you can tell it to shut up and go in the name of Jesus and it does have an option of staying. Just like when a police officer tells you to stop you stop regardless of big or heavy your car is, in Jesus name he goes regardless of how big and scary that demon is.

Yes I agree, if you do not have the faith you need pray and fast for faith and be built up in God's word, as we should be doing every day of our lives.