Letter From Hell

[BleedingHeart]

Don't know if this has been discussed or not. I tried looking for it in the forum's search engine and couldn't find it, so here goes.
I'm guessing many people on the forums are familiar with his particular Youtube video.

YouTube - A Letter from Hell

I just wanted to know, do you believe this is an accurate or inaccurate depiction of judgment and of hell? Why or why not? I'm just curious because I was planning on writing a little story based on a lost soul going through the same thing, but I don't know if this is a scripturally accurate depicition of hell or not.
Discuss.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

That's kind of chilling. Definitely makes me dislike the Hell Doctrine all that much more because it makes no sense why a loving, forgiving God would let that happen eternally.

The idea of fire and brimstone, when they do appear in the Bible, seem more metaphorical than literal. Jesus likened hell to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem; it was plainly meant to be a metaphor. Jesus used lots of metaphors, everyone recognizes that the "camel through an eye of a needle" is a metaphor while many seem to take his metaphor of Hell as literal.

Similarly, the idea of Hell is very much a Greek idea (Hades, the underworld) and was never a Jewish idea. So much of Christian theology has been skewed by Greek thought that its difficult to put yourself in the frame of mind that Jesus and his followers would have been in, growing up in a Jewish culture which hadn't had nearly the Greek influence that our world now has. (The Jewish idea of Sheol is not quite our current depiction of Hell but is rather just another place where you go after you die "regardless of the moral choices made in life". It is simply the "abode of the dead" with few positive or negative connotations).

Every time that Jesus refers to Hell in the NT (which is rare, such as Matt 5:22) he is symbolically describing a garbage dump near Jerusalem where they burned garbage. He is not referring to Sheol or Hades. Similarly, every time he mentions this garbage dump (hell), he is not referring to what happens when you PHYSICALLY DIE but is rather referring to the FINAL punishment at the end of the world. So, even if you die today, I feel like, being Jewish, Jesus would be more likely to lean to the side that you go to Sheol after death. Punishment at end-times is not equivalent to what happens in the afterlife.

The words "eternal conscious torment" do not appear in the Bible.

Similarly, the idea of "eternal life" or "eternal Hell" would be somewhat foreign because Jesus often spoke about a new age yet to come or ages past and the word "eternal" in Greek has its roots in "age-long". So if ages come and go then "eternal" life is not truly eternal.

I have many problems with the doctrine of eternal Hell being eternal conscious torment. It seems to contradict many notions of what makes God, God. Merciful, forgiving, unconditional love, just and compassionate are qualities which are good and divine and are repeatedly used to describe both God and Jesus throughout the Bible. None of those qualities even remotely line up with the notion that he will stand idly by as you beg and plead with him for your life only to say, "too bad" and toss you into eternal conscious torment. It just doesn't line up. If it does to you, I would suggest that there's some cognitive dissonance going on...

 

[MattRose]

This sort of message was given to the youth at my churches every year or so when I was a kid (Southern Baptist). I used to believe it. My parents didn't know any better. I wonder has this has effected my physche. In years to come this could be considered child abuse. Right now it's protected speech. Only education can stop this.

 

[BleedingHeart]

That's kind of chilling. Definitely makes me dislike the Hell Doctrine all that much more because it makes no sense why a loving, forgiving God would let that happen eternally.

The idea of fire and brimstone, when they do appear in the Bible, seem more metaphorical than literal. Jesus likened hell to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem; it was plainly meant to be a metaphor. Jesus used lots of metaphors, everyone recognizes that the "camel through an eye of a needle" is a metaphor while many seem to take his metaphor of Hell as literal.

Similarly, the idea of Hell is very much a Greek idea (Hades, the underworld) and was never a Jewish idea. So much of Christian theology has been skewed by Greek thought that its difficult to put yourself in the frame of mind that Jesus and his followers would have been in, growing up in a Jewish culture which hadn't had nearly the Greek influence that our world now has. (The Jewish idea of Sheol is not quite our current depiction of Hell but is rather just another place where you go after you die "regardless of the moral choices made in life". It is simply the "abode of the dead" with few positive or negative connotations).

Every time that Jesus refers to Hell in the NT (which is rare, such as Matt 5:22) he is symbolically describing a garbage dump near Jerusalem where they burned garbage. He is not referring to Sheol or Hades. Similarly, every time he mentions this garbage dump (hell), he is not referring to what happens when you PHYSICALLY DIE but is rather referring to the FINAL punishment at the end of the world. So, even if you die today, I feel like, being Jewish, Jesus would be more likely to lean to the side that you go to Sheol after death. Punishment at end-times is not equivalent to what happens in the afterlife.

The words "eternal conscious torment" do not appear in the Bible.

Similarly, the idea of "eternal life" or "eternal Hell" would be somewhat foreign because Jesus often spoke about a new age yet to come or ages past and the word "eternal" in Greek has its roots in "age-long". So if ages come and go then "eternal" life is not truly eternal.

I have many problems with the doctrine of eternal Hell being eternal conscious torment. It seems to contradict many notions of what makes God, God. Merciful, forgiving, unconditional love, just and compassionate are qualities which are good and divine and are repeatedly used to describe both God and Jesus throughout the Bible. None of those qualities even remotely line up with the notion that he will stand idly by as you beg and plead with him for your life only to say, "too bad" and toss you into eternal conscious torment. It just doesn't line up. If it does to you, I would suggest that there's some cognitive dissonance going on...

Well being an atheist I don't believe any of it, at all whatsover. I just wanted feedback for this particular subject.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Fundamentalist scare tactics intended to get people (mostly youth) to evangelize.

No, it doesn't reflect my views of judgment of hell or God or the Christian faith. I think it's an atrocious unintentional parody.

Christ didn't instruct His disciples to baptize and make disciples because if they didn't then the blood of the world would be on their hands as the unbelieving suffered eternal agony in the bowels of Hades. In fact I'm not aware of any such notion anywhere in the pages of Holy Scripture, let alone from Jesus' own lips.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ebia]

What Crypto said.

Other than using his name and a couple of out-of-context quotes, it's got next to nothing to do with Jesus or the bible.

 

[drich0150]

Don't know if this has been discussed or not. I tried looking for it in the forum's search engine and couldn't find it, so here goes.
I'm guessing many people on the forums are familiar with his particular Youtube video.
I just wanted to know, do you believe this is an accurate or inaccurate depiction of judgment and of hell? Why or why not? I'm just curious because I was planning on writing a little story based on a lost soul going through the same thing, but I don't know if this is a scripturally accurate depiction of hell or not.
Discuss.

There are some liberties taken, but most of it is based on the medieval idea of Hell, which stems from Dante's depiction of Hell, which in of itself takes many liberties that are not found in scripture.

I am sure Hell is a big enough place for those who are condemned there to not necessarily experience the exact same thing. For instance when most of us think of Hell the image of a lake of fire comes to mind. Those who wrote of this "lake" lived in a time to be able to distinguish between a small body of water like a lake and a large body of water like a sea. Yet all accounts of eternal fire point to a lake. My point here? For the billions condemned all may not have accesses to lake front property in Hell.

Here are some examples of "other" (than Dante's' version) experiences in/with Hell.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7474493/

As far as what I think about this story, it is just a propaganda tool used by those who wish to rule God's people with Fear and guilt. When in fact that Heaven is not just a refuge for those who fear Hell. Heaven is meant to be a place for those who Love God can be with the one they love.

We are told that those who enter Heaven who primary concern is not love for God will be allowed in but only as one barely escaping a fire. Then the bible describes them as having burnt clothing and burnt hair. This means those who enter Heaven this way will have nothing waiting for them when they get to heaven except what they planned for all of their lives.. Which is little more than a refuge from Hell.

This is the true tragedy, in that one would be able to see the glory and Majesty of God and Heaven, but only from the outside looking in.
To me that would be a fate worse than Hell. I'm sure for the 1st 10,000 years or so one could remind themselves of the Hell they avoided, but to see all that could be possible, and to be reminded by your station for eternity... Lets hope than when we are all transformed that we find a level of contentment that we do not know in this life. Otherwise for some I believe that Heaven will become hell.

 

[John Jay]

That's kind of chilling. Definitely makes me dislike the Hell Doctrine all that much more because it makes no sense why a loving, forgiving God would let that happen eternally.

Is that all God is? "Loving and forgiving"?

[Hell] was plainly meant to be a metaphor.

How do you know?

Jesus used lots of metaphors, everyone recognizes that the "camel through an eye of a needle" is a metaphor while many seem to take his metaphor of Hell as literal.

So then, because one thing is a metaphor, then everything else is also a metaphor? If it's a metaphor, then why doesn't He use metaphorical language?

Similarly, the idea of Hell is very much a Greek idea (Hades, the underworld) and was never a Jewish idea.

Even if this were true, which it is not, so what? How does the fact that something allegedly isn't mentioned in the Old Testament negate what is taught in the New Testament?

So much of Christian theology has been skewed by Greek thought that its difficult to put yourself in the frame of mind that Jesus and his followers would have been in, growing up in a Jewish culture which hadn't had nearly the Greek influence that our world now has.

So the Holy Spirit was so influenced by Greek thought that He could not inspire the Bible authors to record His words accurately?

Every time that Jesus refers to Hell in the NT (which is rare, such as Matt 5:22) he is symbolically describing a garbage dump near Jerusalem where they burned garbage.

What makes you think this?

He is not referring to Sheol or Hades. Similarly, every time he mentions this garbage dump (hell), he is not referring to what happens when you PHYSICALLY DIE but is rather referring to the FINAL punishment at the end of the world.

Does the punishment the Rich Man faced occur at his death or after the "final judgement"?

The words "eternal conscious torment" do not appear in the Bible.

Neither does the words "Trinity" or "Bible" but the concepts are taught in the Bible.

Similarly, the idea of "eternal life" or "eternal Hell" would be somewhat foreign because Jesus often spoke about a new age yet to come or ages past and the word "eternal" in Greek has its roots in "age-long". So if ages come and go then "eternal" life is not truly eternal.

Two questions about this.

The first is, if what you're saying is true, then how do you reconcile your belief with the repeated Old Testament verses about living with God forever?

The second is, if what you're saying is true, then do you believe that Heaven is not eternal? That God is not eternal? Because the same phrase is used to describe them, too.

I have many problems with the doctrine of eternal Hell being eternal conscious torment. It seems to contradict many notions of what makes God, God. Merciful, forgiving, unconditional love, just and compassionate are qualities which are good and divine and are repeatedly used to describe both God and Jesus throughout the Bible. None of those qualities even remotely line up with the notion that he will stand idly by as you beg and plead with him for your life only to say, "too bad" and toss you into eternal conscious torment. It just doesn't line up. If it does to you, I would suggest that there's some cognitive dissonance going on...

Who says God stands idly by? Leaving the splendor of Heaven, taking on a human body, living for thirty-three years as a man, dying on a cross, and the repeated, constant working of the Holy Spirit to call sinners doesn't sound like "standing idly by" to me.

 

[razeontherock]

The idea of fire and brimstone, when they do appear in the Bible, seem more metaphorical than literal. Jesus likened hell to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem; it was plainly meant to be a metaphor. Jesus used lots of metaphors, everyone recognizes that the "camel through an eye of a needle" is a metaphor while many seem to take his metaphor of Hell as literal.

This is where hermeneutics serve us well. The eye of a needle refers to a safety measure to keep invaders out of Jerusalem. (Or at least out of the Temple) You cannot dismiss physical reality with the wave of the "metaphorical" magic wand.

Similarly, the idea of Hell is very much a Greek idea (Hades, the underworld) and was never a Jewish idea. So much of Christian theology has been skewed by Greek thought that its difficult to put yourself in the frame of mind that Jesus and his followers would have been in, growing up in a Jewish culture which hadn't had nearly the Greek influence that our world now has.

This is significant! How much Greek influence had already occurred in Jesus' day? We're not really sure, but the latest evidence is showing that Jesus probably spoke at least a little Greek. Personally, I'm quite interested in trying to re-trace the steps the Church went through to see what might have been changed due to both Greek influence, and to separate themselves from Judaism. (Judaism also took traceable steps to alienate itself from Christianity, which changed certain aspects of their Faith)

Every time that Jesus refers to Hell in the NT (which is rare,

Umm, NO! He spoke about hell more than the rest of the Bible put together, and I forget but I think may have taught about it more than about heaven. Whatever He meant by it, it was NOT an idle mention in passing ...

Similarly, the idea of "eternal life" or "eternal Hell" would be somewhat foreign because Jesus often spoke about a new age yet to come or ages past and the word "eternal" in Greek has its roots in "age-long". So if ages come and go then "eternal" life is not truly eternal.

This is indeed an interesting quirk of language. Apparently that same word is used both for "ages long" and eternal.

I have many problems with the doctrine of eternal Hell being eternal conscious torment. It seems to contradict many notions of what makes God, God. Merciful, forgiving, unconditional love, just and compassionate are qualities which are good and divine and are repeatedly used to describe both God and Jesus throughout the Bible. None of those qualities even remotely line up with the notion that he will stand idly by as you beg and plead with him for your life only to say, "too bad" and toss you into eternal conscious torment. It just doesn't line up.

Please notice that the Day of Judgment is Prophesied throughout history. It seems to directly address the conundrum you frame here, and so I posit that we would all do well to come to terms with it:

Hebrews 4:13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

 

[Zebra1552]

It's certainly chilling and downright creepy. But first off:

The Bible doesn't teach that those who go to hell will have any remorse, guilt, or shame about their destination. The Bible doesn't teach that hell is a place of fire or pain. It says it is a place of torment.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them;
Rev 21:4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And the one who was seated on the throne said, "See, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:6 Then he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life.
Rev 21:7 Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."


The contrast is this: In one place, death is no more along with crying, pain, and mourning. Those going to be there get the water of life, and God will be with them. That God will be with them is repeated four times. Then a stark contrast is given, that those who lived in sin and did not repent will not go there, but to the lake of fire. The implication of this verses is that they are going to a place without God. Like darkness is the absence of light and cold the absence of heat, hell is the absence of heaven, which is where God dwells. There is no God in hell. Those who go there will get what they chose: No God. Nothing more, nothing less.

The video does a very poor job of getting to that point and is an old-fashioned guilt trip designed to make you talk to as many people as possible about God rather than loving them the way Jesus did: Spending time with them, building relationship with them, and being there for them.

The video is no portrayal of the Gospel.

 

[solarwave]

If that is how hell works we should have a duty to kill all humans so that no more would go there.

I have more hope in reality than this; the hope of atheists of non-existance is more of a good news than this. It makes out Christianity to be a very very pessimistic. I believe the gospel is a hope for all people, not only those who can bring themselves to believe that 2000 years ago God was killing on a tree. Not to say it didn't happen, but its alot to ask.

Simply telling someone about Jesus doesn't tend to convert them anyway, so the video is very simplistic.

 

[BleedingHeart]

If that is how hell works we should have a duty to kill all humans so that no more would go there.

I have more hope in reality than this; the hope of atheists of non-existance is more of a good news than this. It makes out Christianity to be a very very pessimistic. I believe the gospel is a hope for all people, not only those who can bring themselves to believe that 2000 years ago God was killing on a tree. Not to say it didn't happen, but its alot to ask.

Simply telling someone about Jesus doesn't tend to convert them anyway, so the video is very simplistic.

"I have more hope in reality than this; the hope of atheists of non-existance is more of a good news than this."
It is better news, but people don't become atheists for the hope of non-existence.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Is that all God is? "Loving and forgiving"?

I would say those are his prime qualities and probably the two central tenets to the Christian faith.

How do you know?

I don't know but I stated that Hell is metaphorical and then used examples to back up the claim (such as Jesus using the symbol of the garbage dump).

So then, because one thing is a metaphor, then everything else is also a metaphor? If it's a metaphor, then why doesn't He use metaphorical language?

He does use metaphorical language (the garbage dump). Not everything is a metaphor but it seems silly to immediately jump to the conclusion that one thing is for sure metaphorical while another is for sure literal. Why?

Even if this were true, which it is not, so what? How does the fact that something allegedly isn't mentioned in the Old Testament negate what is taught in the New Testament?

I said Hell is a Greek idea that wasn't a big part of Jewish thought. It still isn't a big part of Jewish thought. So the way we, in our current Greek-influenced culture, interpret Jesus' words may be radically different then what Jesus intended. The Old Testament and New Testament don't negate each other but the cultures in which they were written must be taken into account rather than taking our culture as the de facto objective cultural lens to view all truths through.

So the Holy Spirit was so influenced by Greek thought that He could not inspire the Bible authors to record His words accurately?

What the words of the Bible say are different than the value and emphasis that 2000 years of Greco-Roman culture have placed on those words. The Bible is no doubt inspired but I think half the puzzle of the Bible is figuring out what its truly trying to say rather than reading it at face value.

I am of the opinion that the Bible writers were inspired but were still ultimately flawed human beings writing in a particular place at a particular time. The Holy Spirit can still be involved.

What makes you think this?

Because the translation of the word "hell" in every instance that Jesus talks about hell is the word: "geennan" which is a reference to Gehenna, a valley southwest of Jerusalem where garbage and dead criminals were thrown and burned. It is obviously a powerful symbol and not exactly a place you would like to literally or symbolically end up in.

Does the punishment the Rich Man faced occur at his death or after the "final judgement"?

Its worth noting that the rich man parable is just that, a parable. Its not a historical description of anything or any events. And like any story or parable its meant to convey a message rather than any historical accuracy of reality. Similarly, even if the punishment is real, there's no mention of it being eternal. (And its kind of a weird story because Jesus is telling them to strictly follow the Law of the Prophets in order to get to the "good place"; this idea is somewhat in contradiction to current Christian (and especially Pauline) theology).

Neither does the words "Trinity" or "Bible" but the concepts are taught in the Bible.

The trinity is still not entirely understood. Paul definitely alludes to some sort of trinitarian idea but the nature of it is still not understood. Similarly, Paul and Jesus allude to some sort of punishment after death, but the nature of it is still not understood.

The first is, if what you're saying is true, then how do you reconcile your belief with the repeated Old Testament verses about living with God forever?

The second is, if what you're saying is true, then do you believe that Heaven is not eternal? That God is not eternal? Because the same phrase is used to describe them, too.

I would be fine with an age-long "eternal" heaven. Eternal conscious bliss seems just as strange and frustrating a concept as eternal conscious torment.

Who says God stands idly by? Leaving the splendor of Heaven, taking on a human body, living for thirty-three years as a man, dying on a cross, and the repeated, constant working of the Holy Spirit to call sinners doesn't sound like "standing idly by" to me.

Good point. But if, despite all this, someone doesn't come to know God and then the person dies and begs for his life, in that moment, God is just unmercifully refusing to forgive the person, at least that's the way its depicted in the video.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

This is where hermeneutics serve us well. The eye of a needle refers to a safety measure to keep invaders out of Jerusalem. (Or at least out of the Temple) You cannot dismiss physical reality with the wave of the "metaphorical" magic wand.

Sooo, the eye of the needle is....a metaphor.

Umm, NO! He spoke about hell more than the rest of the Bible put together, and I forget but I think may have taught about it more than about heaven. Whatever He meant by it, it was NOT an idle mention in passing ...

He talked more about hell than the rest of the Bible put together because the idea of hell wasn't even around during the entire Old Testament (Sheol is not the same as Hell).

The word heaven is mentioned 4 times more in the Gospels than the words hell, fire and hades combined. JOLLYBLOGGER: Did Jesus Talk More About Heaven Than Hell?

On any issue, Jesus talks most about money.

Please notice that the Day of Judgment is Prophesied throughout history. It seems to directly address the conundrum you frame here, and so I posit that we would all do well to come to terms with it:

Hebrews 4:13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Its also worth noting that the Day of Judgment is potentially quite different than what happens when you or I die right now. The Day of Judgment can be described as the end of time itself. No time = no eternal conscious anything; neither bliss nor torment.

 

[ebia]

The word heaven is mentioned 4 times more in the Gospels than the words hell, fire and hades combined. JOLLYBLOGGER: Did Jesus Talk More About Heaven Than Hell?
.

Plus I would argue, "hell" is not the opposite to "heaven" but to the Kingdom of God, which is the almost constant referent through the gospels and to a lesser extent the whole NT

 

[John Jay]

I would say those are his prime qualities and probably the two central tenets to the Christian faith.

But are those His only qualities?

I don't know

So then you don't know that it's only a metaphor, but you made that claim anyway?

but I stated that Hell is metaphorical and then used examples to back up the claim (such as Jesus using the symbol of the garbage dump).

And you completely ignored the examples in which Jesus spoke of Hell as a real, literal place.

He does use metaphorical language (the garbage dump).

But not all the time. What do you do in the instances where He does not use metaphorical language? What do you base your claim on in those cases?

Not everything is a metaphor but it seems silly to immediately jump to the conclusion that one thing is for sure metaphorical while another is for sure literal. Why?

If the language and context tells you its a metaphor, then it's probably a metaphor. If the language and context tells you its literal, then it's probably literal. What I'm asking you is why you assume it's a metaphor when the language and context say literal.

So the way we, in our current Greek-influenced culture, interpret Jesus' words may be radically different then what Jesus intended.

So how do you know what Jesus "intended" if not by the historical-linguistic-and internal evidence?

The Old Testament and New Testament don't negate

Then why are you basing your argument that any mention of Hell in the New Testament must be metaphorical because of the alleged lack of a mention of Hell in the Old Testament?

The Bible is no doubt inspired but I think half the puzzle of the Bible is figuring out what its truly trying to say rather than reading it at face value.

Why do you believe the Bible doesn't mean what it says? And when did the Bible start to not mean what it says? Because we can look at historical writings within the church and see that the understanding we have of the Biblical doctrine of Hell has remained more or less unchanged for 2,000 years.

I am of the opinion that the Bible writers were inspired but were still ultimately flawed human beings writing in a particular place at a particular time. The Holy Spirit can still be involved.

Fine. They were flawed. But we're not talking about their flaws. We're talking about the competence of the Holy Spirit to choose men who will accurately reflect His words.

Because the translation of the word "hell" in every instance that Jesus talks about hell is the word...

Just so you know, repeating a claim in order to prove the truthfulness of a claim is a logical fallacy and does not answer the question.

Again, what makes you think that every time Jesus spoke of Hell, He was speaking metaphorically about a garbage dump?

How, then, do you explain Matt. 11:23, 16:18, Luke 10:15, and 16:23, in which Jesus uses the word Hades to indicate Hell, not Gehenna? Or

Its worth noting that the rich man parable is just that, a parable.

What makes you think it's just a parable? Why doesn't it fit any of the criteria of a parable? Why does Jesus speak of it as if it's a literal, historical event?

And its kind of a weird story because Jesus is telling them to strictly follow the Law of the Prophets in order to get to the "good place"; this idea is somewhat in contradiction to current Christian (and especially Pauline) theology).

How is it in contradiction that Jews under the Old Covenant were to follow the "Law of the Prophets"?

Similarly, Paul and Jesus allude to some sort of punishment after death, but the nature of it is still not understood.

They didn't just "allude" to it. They came right out and said that there is a place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death.

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

What specifically about the nature of Hell is it that you believe we can't glean from these verses?

I would be fine with an age-long "eternal" heaven. Eternal conscious bliss seems just as strange and frustrating a concept as eternal conscious torment.

So then, "aionios" means eternal when it's applied to Heaven, but not to Hell? How did you come to this conclusion?

Good point. But if, despite all this, someone doesn't come to know God and then the person dies and begs for his life, in that moment, God is just unmercifully refusing to forgive the person, at least that's the way its depicted in the video.

God has already shown them mercy. They have repeatedly rejected God's mercy. Eventually, a just and righteous God has to punish sinners.

 

[razeontherock]

The trinity is still not entirely understood. Paul definitely alludes to some sort of trinitarian idea but the nature of it is still not understood. Similarly, Paul and Jesus allude to some sort of punishment after death, but the nature of it is still not understood.

This is the point!

But if, despite all this, someone doesn't come to know God and then the person dies and begs for his life, in that moment, God is just unmercifully refusing to forgive the person, at least that's the way its depicted in the video.

Refusing to forgive?! How about, Judge of all men! This is a primary feature of the Gospel.

 

[razeontherock]

Sooo, the eye of the needle is....a metaphor.

Nope. A PHYSICAL place, with specific physical actions being done. Hermeneutics ...

Its also worth noting that the Day of Judgment is potentially quite different than what happens when you or I die right now. The Day of Judgment can be described as the end of time itself. No time = no eternal conscious anything; neither bliss nor torment.

The Bible teaches the exact opposite of the part I bolded.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Very good posts, John Jay. I wrote the following in another thread but I thought it would fit well in this thread, too.

Matthew 25:41: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...'"

Revelation 14:10-11: "He himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."

God is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and disobedient (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God, He is also righteous, holy and just. The Bible says that He hates all manner of sin (Proverbs 6:16-19). The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself said that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The Bible says that those who aren't in Christ are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) and condemned (John 3:18). John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” The Scriptures I cited make it perfectly clear that the wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Very good posts, John Jay. I wrote the following in another thread but I thought it would fit well in this thread, too.

Matthew 25:41: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...'"

Revelation 14:10-11: "He himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."

God is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and disobedient (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God, He is also righteous, holy and just. The Bible says that He hates all manner of sin (Proverbs 6:16-19). The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself said that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The Bible says that those who aren't in Christ are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) and condemned (John 3:18). John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” The Scriptures I cited make it perfectly clear that the wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God.

And who would fall under the term wicked? Would it include atheists like myself?