Let's Talk About Hell

[Studious One]

You guys can continue to follow a Jesus that is responsible for making drunks of thousands of men... I will follow the Jesus I have been following for years.

 

[Der Alte]

Just as John the Baptist was being falsely accused, even so was the Lord being falsely accused of drinking wine. Notice in that passage Jesus did not say what He was drinking, only that He was drinking. What they accused Him of was not of being a drunkard. Had they accused Him of being a drunkard, they would have used the Greek word methusos. They did not. What they accused Him of was being a oinopotes. Oinopotes is comprised of two words... oinos meaning wine, and potes meaning drinker. They accused Him of drinking wine... which was a false accusation. Jesus refuted their accusations by His reply. "But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Context shows they were falsely accusing Him of drinking wine as many do today in an attempt to justify their drinking of wine.

How does "but wisdom is justified of all her children" deny the charge of being winebibber? I note you acknowledge that "Methusos" means drunkard here but you will not acknowledge that the ruler of the feast John 2:9 where Jesus turned the water into wine, said, "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, [Methuo] then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." As you have now shown "Methuo" does not mean to drink a large quantity but it only means "intoxicated." The ruler of the feast would not have said that if Jesus made plain grape juice!

Here is the definition of oinopotes

G3630 οἰνοπότης oinopotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) a winebibber, given to wine, a wino
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3631 and a derivative of the alternate of G4095
​

 

[godisreal36]

If we put more emphasis on reading the Word and praying to the Lord and seeking Him, Gods people will not become drunks. Drunks belong to Jesus, he came for the sinner. Praise our Lord Jesus. Praise our Lord God for His loving mercy He shows to all people. May we all love one another as God has commanded us to do.

 

[Der Alte]

You guys can continue to follow a Jesus that is responsible for making drunks of thousands of men... I will follow the Jesus I have been following for years.

Looks to me like you are following the pronouncements out of Nashville rather than scripture, every one of which you have misrepresented.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Just as John the Baptist was being falsely accused, even so was the Lord being falsely accused of drinking wine. Notice in that passage Jesus did not say what He was drinking, only that He was drinking. What they accused Him of was not of being a drunkard. Had they accused Him of being a drunkard, they would have used the Greek word methusos. They did not. What they accused Him of was being a oinopotes. Oinopotes is comprised of two words... oinos meaning wine, and potes meaning drinker. They accused Him of drinking wine... which was a false accusation. Jesus refuted their accusations by His reply. "But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Context shows they were falsely accusing Him of drinking wine as many do today in an attempt to justify their drinking of wine.

So John the baptist come neither eating and drinking (as Jesus confirms) and they say he had a devil (not eating and drinking)...but the Son of man is come eating and drinking but just not as much as they said he did (gluttonous) nor exactly what they say he was drinking (as in wine) you say?

Thanks for your take on that Studious one

 

[godisreal36]

And i was saying that we should emphasize that to others. I was not telling you all to do those things. Sorry i reread it and it seemed as if it could be read both ways. Just making my meaning more clear.

 

[godisreal36]

Let me be more clear. We all talk of drinking when a drunk seeks the Lord. Someones meaning can get easily misunderstood. Although we mean well, others take it wrong. We should not say your drinking offends me, instead focus on other things. If we pray God will hear and if we seek we will find and if we read the Word that we will learn. Jesus is the way Not endless debates on alcohol.

 

[godisreal36]

Then again this is the place for such debates maybe.

 

[Studious One]

How does "but wisdom is justified of all her children" deny the charge of being winebibber? I note you acknowledge that "Methusos" means drunkard here but you will not acknowledge that the ruler of the feast John 2:9 where Jesus turned the water into wine, said, "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, [Methuo] then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." As you have now shown "Methuo" does not mean to drink a large quantity but it only means "intoxicated." The ruler of the feast would not have said that if Jesus made plain grape juice!

Here is the definition of oinopotes

G3630 οἰνοπότης oinopotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) a winebibber, given to wine, a wino
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3631 and a derivative of the alternate of G4095
​

1. Methuso is not used in the passage where Jesus was accused of being a wine drinker. 2. Methuo can also mean well drunk. Well drunk does not necessitate intoxication. As I pointed out previously, had the guests of the wedding been drunk as you claim, then for Jesus to produce alcohol for them would have added to their drunkenness. This would have made Him a sinner and not the sacrifice needed for mankind. My Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost, not aid them in getting drunker than what they already were.

Methuo in John 2 merely means drank well, it is cannot be speaking of intoxication.

 

[Timothew]

It's a sin to drink alcohol.
Jesus could not have given anyone alcohol because that would make him a sinner.
Therefore the wine Jesus gave didn't contain alcohol.
Since Jesus never gave anybody wine containing alcohol, we know that drinking alcohol is a sin.
Repeat.

 

[godisreal36]

Alcohol is not in the ten commandments is it? I guess it depends one ones own interpretation of what alcohol is. Is it a sin to give alcohol as a medicine only? Is alcohol for a deeply sorrowful heart a medicine? Can medicine become a sin if its abused? Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath? Whats that got to do with alcohol? not sure just wanted to throw it in the mix.

 

[godisreal36]

I have more questions than answers, makes me human and makes me need the Lord Jesus even more. Im happy to need Him its Gods will.

 

[godisreal36]

Love seems easier than the Law. I need to learn that allot more anyways. Love is the greatest commandment and the most powerful Gift from God i think. I pray for that allot. I try and i fail allot. But then again if i didn't fail i wouldn't need my Lord Jesus. Praise my Lord Jesus. May i try to show His love in my actions. Its Hard to keep the law and also to Love, yet one fulfills and sums up the other. God is mysterious and awesome in His ways. Praise the Lord.

 

[Optimax]

I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

Ezek 32:18
Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit .
KJV

Ezek 32:24

24 There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.
KJV

 

[godisreal36]

I had a thought on Satan last night. It was strange. As if he's not really a figure but part of each of us that is symbolized by a figure to help us understand something we cannot. Yet i can understand the concept that no one is good, very easily, so why would i think such a thing that seems as if it were a Revelation of truth, when its not even needed to understand something is inside me that is always wrong? Satan being the Father of another Lie? Or Truth? Doesn't matter because Gods word is true regardless. I trust In Gods Word alone and i don't lean on my own understanding But His truth that's found in the Bible and it never Fails me. My imaginations do fail however. If i beleive in imagination when it fails all faith built around it may fail as well. I don't trust the imaginations at all. Lean not on your own understanding but on Gods Word.

The Holy Spirit agrees with the Word

 

[Der Alte]

1. Methuso is not used in the passage where Jesus was accused of being a wine drinker. 2. Methuo can also mean well drunk. Well drunk does not necessitate intoxication. As I pointed out previously, had the guests of the wedding been drunk as you claim, then for Jesus to produce alcohol for them would have added to their drunkenness. This would have made Him a sinner and not the sacrifice needed for mankind. My Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost, not aid them in getting drunker than what they already were.

Methuo in John 2 merely means drank well, it is cannot be speaking of intoxication.

Sorry amigo, not interested in unsupported personal opinions. The word Methuo as I have shown from Thayer's lexicon means only one thing intoxicated does NOT include a lesser meaning of to drink a lot! I did NOT say that Methuso occurs in the verse where Jesus was called a winebibber but you did acknowledge that the word means drunkard.

As you "pointed out" is simply your circular argument. John 2:9 how much grape juice does a person have to drink before they can't tell the difference between good and worse grape juice?

Drinking does NOT necessarily lead to drunkeness therefore your argument is irrelevant. Also your argument is NOT supported by scripture. μεθυσθωσιν translated "well drunk" in Jn 2:9 is the Aorist passive subjunctive of μεθύω Once again the definition from Thayer. I have highlighted the relevant definition. Please show me where the word can mean merely to drink a lot?

G3184 μεθύω methuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be drunken
2) metaphorically of one who has shed blood or murdered profusely
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from another form of G3178
Citing in TDNT: 4:545, 576​

 

[Studious One]

Thayers is wrong on this one.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Notice the governor did not say 'when men are well drunk,' he said "when men have well drunk" meaning when they have drunk in abundance.

Title : Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
Edition : Third
Copyright : Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2003, QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.G3184 μεθύω methuō meth-oo'-o From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk:—drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).

The primary definition of drunk is intoxicated, but in this instance, it merely means to drink in abundance.

As I rightly pointed out, if the guests were drunk as you claim, Jesus would not have added to their drunkenness. He would have been participating in their sin.

You falsely accuse Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

It's a sin to drink alcohol.
Jesus could not have given anyone alcohol because that would make him a sinner.
Therefore the wine Jesus gave didn't contain alcohol.
Since Jesus never gave anybody wine containing alcohol, we know that drinking alcohol is a sin.
Repeat.

Chant false religious mantra, ignore scripture and truth, chant false religious mantra, repeat!

Where does scripture state that drinking alcohol is a sin?

Where does scripture state that serving alcohol to someone is a sin?

Making an supported statement about wine does not make it so!

You do NOT know that Jesus did NOT give anybody wine containing alcohol!

We do not know that merely drinking acohol is a sin! That is NOT stated anywhere is scripture!

 

[Timothew]

Der Alter,
You are right, I was pointing out the circular reasoning of The Studious One. I may have exaggerated his claims a little.

 

[Studious One]

From Albert Barnes Notes on the New Testament:

When menhavewelldrunk—This word does not of necessity mean that they were intoxicated, though it is usually employed in that sense. It may mean when they have drunk sufficient, or to satiety; or have drunk so much as to produce hilarity, and to destroy the keenness of their taste, so that they could not readily distinguish the good from that which was worse. But this cannot be adduced in favor of drunkenness, even if it means to be intoxicated; for,​

1. It is not said of those who were present “at that feast,” but of what generally occurred. For anything that appears, at that feast all were perfectly temperate and sober.​

2. It is not the saying of Jesus that is here recorded, but of the governor of the feast, who is declaring what usually occurred as a fact.​

3. There is not any expression of opinion in regard to its “propriety,” or in approval of it, even by that governor.​

4. It does not appear that our Saviour even heard the observation.​

5. Still less is there any evidence that he approved such a state of things, or that he designed that it should take place here. Further, the word translated “well drunk” cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired. then the other was presented. It is clear that neither our Saviour, nor the sacred writer, nor the speaker here expresses any approval of intemperance, nor is there the least evidence that anything of the kind occurred here. It is not proof that we approve of intemperance when we mention, as this man did, what occurs usually among men at feasts.​